Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

Just about all the respected economists etc published articles about how awful brexit will be. It is happening anyway and the politicians are falling over themselves to contradict their own previous opinions.

Oh yes, and the Scottish government are building social housing- a very good thing imo - and affordable homes. Also good for ordinary people and poor people. How can you say it's a lie to say they will help poor people?

Ruth Davidson

The Scottish Parliament will nonetheless demonstrate its priorities next week by devoting two days to debating a question to which we already know the answer. That is another piece of imagery which should not go unnoticed. When did they last spend two days debating education or the economy, where the subject matter is not a constitutional hypothesis but urgent reality which affects people’s lives and prospects?

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-wilson-thank-goodness-the-four-day-war-is-over-1-4394217

Nyx when did putting up income tax become a far-left position? It's a lie that independence will help poor people because (let me count the ways)

1. economic uncertainty hits the poorest, hardest , independence will cause uncertainty.
2. The expert view that in general living standards will fall in an independent Scotland
3. The expert view that Scotland will struggle with a huge deficit in an independent Scotland
4. The expert view that Scotland is currently enjoying subsidies from RUK taxpayers cushioning them from macro shocks that they will lose.

Calyx don't you think that you should be able to call upon detailed economic plans from the SNP by proper experts before you vote to burn your country down without any insurance? Whether you're an economist or not you'll still be paying more for less!

nyx we are not saying they are necessarily lying ...but no matter who is in charge in times of great economic hardship it is the poor that suffer the most.
If businesses fail - unemployment rises, the need for benefits increases but with less people paying tax to pay those benefits. In order to survive businesses pay lower wages/can't give pay rises - maybe reduce working hours -so the income tax revenue goes down. There is even less money in the pot to pay an increased benefit bill.
And people who are working have less money to spend on things like 'treats' - extras - if you are struggling to feed yourself on value food you won't be spending money in a restaurant -so the restaurant needs less staff - so they work fewer hours and get paid less or lose their job...and so it continues.
There isn't any extra money to try to aid the most deprived/needy - less money for social workers, less money to improve/repair social housing, less money to maintain shared environments....

Everyone has a lower standard of living - not so bad if you have a good one anyway - you can only afford 2 foreign holidays a year rather than 3.... but if you have a pretty poor standard anyway and it will still get worse.... you go from being able to heat your home to not being able to. The poorest suffering most.

Fontella what an excellent point

When did they last spend two days debating education or the economy, where the subject matter is not a constitutional hypothesis but urgent reality which affects people’s lives and prospects?

A question for the SNP voters on the thread? Let's have a 2 day debate about Scottish education!

Even some in the SNP can see the absurdity in Nicola Sturgeon's arguments about independence and the EU. I think I saw another interview somewhere where he said he would abstain in a referendum that was run on the basis of Scotland rejoining the EU.

I may be paying more for less initially. I prefer to do that for an independent Scotland with the future looking hopeful than attached to Brexit UK. We can use Scotland's resources for Scotland's people.

All this about the poor being affected by uncertainty. They are going to be because of Brexit anyway.

Independent Scotland would have choices with regard to the EU.

Which we won't have attached to Brexit UK sorry meant to add that

Ok, and if it all went pear shaped, you would vote for a party with different policies. That is how it should work and how it does work in other countries. Normal countries. The government of the day would be held to account because that's what happens. We would have a Scottish media of our own to report on Scottish matters and policies and opposition. The Scottish people would be able to weigh up options normally, without a different and bigger country having the only say over Scottish business. What's the problem? Even the unionists in 2014 had to admit through gritted teeth that Scotland could of course be independent and could even be successful.

No party could fix the problems created in the event of independence. Scotland is perfectly normal and has the benefit of being part of a union that celebrates the culture of all 4 historical nations within, plus the benefit of greater financial stability.

In the event of independence any party in power would be held accountable for the woes of Scotland and they'd sure as hell get a lot of flak because scotland would be on it's arse and suffering from the worst austerity seen in the western world in our lifetime, while our champagne nationalist leaders would be basking in self proclaimed glory.

There is nothing stopping scotland having it's own press... Free speech and all that. They just don't sell as many papers because there are only 5000000 of us and most of us like being part of the bigger picture.

There really is nothing different about england to scotland other than ot is bigger. London us englands edinburgh Newcastle is englands glasgow... public opinions are brOadby the same according to the social attitudes survey. The idea that there is a dramatic difference in people is nationalist tripe.

Yes unionists often blow smoke up the arse of nationalists to say it would all be ok. They know it is a load if shite, but say it to try and get you on side. They know that if they say anything other than that they will get the nationalist coined "too wee, too poor" phrase slung at them.

It is simple fact that scotland can nor cope on their own, of course the rest of the union don't want them to do it. If they do they know it is only a matter of time before they ask for a bailout like ireland. I'm sorry, but ns is an opportunist and a xenophobe and that is all there is to it.

Independent Scotland would have choices with regard to the EU.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable argument on the face of it, but if an independent Scotland is going to make the decision about EU membership later on isn't it a bit disingenuous to:

1. pitch the independence case on protecting EU membership (if it might not happen)
2. insist on the most disruptive time scale possible for Brexit because of some convoluted (and slightly illogical) argument about maintaining ties with the EU?

I know the poor suffer most but thanks for the paragraphs explaining it to me

The SNP are doing all they can to keep Scotland in the single market. Because of the agreement by respected economists etc that coming out of it will be an utter disaster.

I didn't say raising taxes was left wing

I don't buy that we are simply a region of England, sorry.

I don't trust Westminster to do anything good for Scotland, from looking at the past and equally what's happening now. Scotland didn't want brexit (hell, neither did almost half of rUK)

"No party could fix the problems created in the event of independence. "

We are a small country with plenty going for it. How on earth do other small countries do it? Why is Scotland different?

Exactly youcannot.

Our defecit in scotland is horrific and 5 times what it needs to be to meet the criteria for membership. As I said if the EU start letting in scotland it really will be a last gasp for them.

Plus scottish people have regularly been held accountable for fuck ups in the uk such as gordon brown and Tony Blair so what is the problem?

5 times what it needs to be to meet the criteria for membership

This is incorrect. Deficit needs to be

The SNP are doing all they can to keep Scotland in the single market. Because of the agreement by respected economists etc that coming out of it will be an utter disaster.

What this point conveniently skips over is that their solution to leaving the EU market involves leaving a market that is worth over 4 times more to Scotland! These same respected economists say that leaving the UK would be even worse - it's nonsense to take their advice when it's politically expedient to do so, but ignore them when it becomes difficult.

I don't buy that we are simply a region of England, sorry.

Who said we were? We are part of the UK, just like England is part of the UK.

I don't trust Westminster to do anything good for Scotland, from looking at the past and equally what's happening now. Scotland didn't want brexit (hell, neither did almost half of rUK)

I find this incredibly ironic. The only reason Scotland has its head above water right now is that the UK is helping us out financially, as the crash in oil prices has decimated our tax returns. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last. The Brexit excuse is unravelling by the day - are we applying for EU membership now? Or are we waiting a bit for people to make up their minds? EFTA maybe? (Perhaps we need to wait and see what the polls say will be most likely to deliver independence...)

Joining the euro is one of the preconditions of eu membership. The UK were there before the euro, we're one of the main contributors and still had to fight like hell not to have the euro.

The actual figures in the Scottish elections show the 2 pro indy parties got 1,073,069 votes. All unionist parties got 1,194,343 votes. There were another 2 parties that it isn't clear what side they stand got 6,629 votes. Even of you add that to that the pro indy parties they still don't overtake the pro union parties votes.

This shows only last year more people voted for pro union parties than pro indy.

Bulgaria,
Croatia,
Czech Republic,
Denmark,
Hungary,
Poland,
Romania,
Sweden,
United Kingdom

All in the EU. All not using the Euro.

When countries join the EU they are expected to join the euro at some unspecified point in the future, after preconditions are met. There is no requirement to either meet the preconditions or set a target date (unless of course you want to join the EU)

I don't buy that we are simply a region of England, sorry

What the hell are you talking about? England is a clearly defined constituent part of the UK as is Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Where on earth has anyone suggested you are a 'region of England'?

Scotland has been in a Union with England and Wales since 1707. In 2014 the Scottish people voted to remain in that Union - the UK.

You are a UK citizen because the Scottish electorate voted for you to remain a UK citizen.

UK-Scottish trade is worth 6% of UK GDP and 78% of Scottish GDP.

Hmmm... Shall we go it alone.. no I think not.