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Second referendum part 2

999 replies

Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome · 16/03/2017 16:38

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

OP posts:
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18
Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 15:47

I know My BIL votes green and he will be Angry

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 15:53

I am Angry

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 15:54

Most of my close friends and family are Angry

NoLotteryWinYet · 21/03/2017 15:55

Patrick Harvie looks cheapened just standing up trotting out his defense of his position - I can't think it'll do them any good at all.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 15:56

So they will use pro Europeans to get a referendum but sell them out to win independence

exactly

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 15:57

This debate isn't about getting independence though. It's about getting the legislation together for allowing the Scottish people the right to vote on it after the significant material change which was Brexit.

Pensions safer in the UK? Aye right.
Jobs safer? Not.
All (every one) of 'Better Together' promises are-referendum have been Proven to be lies.

It's only fair that we get a new Scotref.

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:01

Promises to win indyref1

"1. Renewables subsidies – Ed Davey, the then UK energy secretary, said: “Scotland could lose billions in renewable energy subsidies with a Yes vote and would put our green energy revolution at risk”. Davey claimed that 33 per cent of UK subsidies for wind, wave and tidal projects (£530m a year) came to Scotland and so independence would ‘slam the brakes on wind farm projects’. Now drastic cuts to the public funding of onshore wind-farms have been announced which Renewables Scotland claim could reduce Scotland’s economy by £3 billion.
2. Carbon capture – Davey also claimed the vital climate change project at Peterhead would be endangered as he signed a deal with Shell and Scottish and Southern Energy. However, after the referendum, Westminster pulled its promised £1bn of support and the project failed.
3. EU membership not secure! David Cameron claimed that the only way to protect Scotland’s EU membership was to reject independence. No campaign spokespeople parroted the phrase “EU membership only guaranteed with a No vote”. Now we have polls in England showing that the EU referendum is too close to call while 60 per cent of Scots plan to vote Stay. Right-wing, separatist, British nationalist and often racist, anti-European sentiment will now decide Scotland’s membership of the EU as Scottish votes will not be enough to influence the result unless England’s vote is within one per cent.
4. Labour’s majority promise – Labour who led the No Campaign claimed that not only would independence “consign the rest of the UK to permanent Tory rule” but that a Labour Government would sort out Scotland’s problems. Labour lost by a mile and the Tories won a majority just as I had predicted in this column in 2014. Once the EU referendum is over, Ukip will disappear and their votes will mostly go back to the Tories and England, it seems, will continue to quite happily consign themselves and Scotland to permanent Tory rule.
5. Scotland should lead, not leave the UK – An almost perfect piece of political spin from both Gordon Brown and Johann Lamont but no one seemed to tell David Cameron. The day after the referendum Cameron announced English Votes for English Laws (Evel), effectively meaning no MP from a Scottish constituency can ever be prime minster of the UK and ipso facto can’t lead the UK.
6. Pensions not safer in UK – Gordon Brown warned that independence came with a pensions time-bomb. The UK Government backed that claim and now we see pension age increases for women meaning some will lose out up to £30,000. UK Government policy since the referendum means that middle to high earners will be better off through their pensions but that low earners will bear the cost of pension reforms. A Scot earning around £15,000 with a working life of 30 years, could see their pension drop £1,800 per annum.
7. It was Scotland’s pound – We were told that Scotland could not continue to use the pound after independence. Denying claims that it was a political manoeuvre, the No Camp claimed that a currency union was unworkable. However last week on STV’s Scotland Tonight Sir Mervyn King who ran the Bank of England for a decade said “it would have been totally feasible, there was no need for an independent currency.”
8. Slower meaningless devolution – David Cameron claimed that “A No vote would lead to faster, fairer, safer and better change and that draft legislation for new powers for Scotland would be in place by January, 2015”. John Swinney tells us that almost every concession for more powers in the watered down Smith Commission document had at least one Unionist party trying to block it. We now also know that the Westminster negotiators tried to use the Scotland Bill fiscal agreement talks to cut Scotland’s budget by £7bn over ten years.
9. Uncertainty was a myth – David Cameron claimed inward investors had told him they wouldn’t invest in Scotland until after the referendum due to uncertainty but 2014/15 turned out to be a record year for Scottish inward investment.
10. Job losses – Some strangely specific claims were made by the No camp on protecting jobs. They claimed that the Scottish HMRC tax offices would close and many jobs would be lost as they also collect taxes for England. Since the referendum it has been announced that 2,500 HMRC jobs in Scotland are to go. Again Better Together teamed up with steel workers’ union Community to claim that a No vote would protect steel jobs, but now 270 steel jobs have gone in Scotland.
I have previously outlined how the “broad shoulders of the Union” have let down Aberdeen and the oil industry and in fact there are far too many examples to list here. So why, when so much is obviously wrong with the case for the Union, is support for independence not soaring? There are two reasons; firstly as Nicola Sturgeon has astutely realised the case for independence needs to be made loudly and such evidence as listed above need to be taken to the voters as they won’t search for it themselves. Secondly the creation of the economic argument, a detailed roadmap to prosperity through the powers of an independent Scotland (the raison d’être of Business for Scotland) would help support for independence soar. The oil price coming back to profitable levels by 2020, as 97 per cent of senior oil executives expect, would also open the floodgates"

Gordon Macintyre-Kemp 18 Mar 2016

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:03

www.commonspace.scot/articles/10412/journey-yes-former-better-together-campaigner-mike-dailly-backing-indy

Previous Better Together campaigner backing Scottish independence

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:07

GOD gobby is on

Fontella · 21/03/2017 16:10

Pensions safer in the UK? Aye right
Jobs safer? Not
All (every one) of 'Better Together' promises are-referendum have been Proven to be lies.

So how are your pensions going to be safer in an independent Scotland?

How are your jobs going to be safer?

Show us please?

It's the SNP's 'White Paper' that has been proven to be lies. You know 'the doorstep sized white paper, that has more fairytales in it that the Brothers Grimm? The 600 page confidence trick that the whole 2014 Independence case was built on?

If you honestly think the SNP could govern a better, more prosperous 'independent' Scotland then God help you is all I can say.

NoLotteryWinYet · 21/03/2017 16:13

yes - if all the SNP need is a 'roadmap to prosperity' for Scotland to be booming, why the hell haven't they done it yet and where is it?

'Gordon' looks like he's saying don't worry muggles, by 2020 oil prices will be back and it'll all be fine! Sounds like another dodgy SNP prediction to me.

Fontella · 21/03/2017 16:13

Previous Better Together campaigner backing Scottish independence

Good for him.

And that proves what exactly?

Here's someone who thinks precisely the opposite ...

www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-voted-yes-scottish-independence-referendum-last-time-gordon-young

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:16

I don't think the SNP would govern independent Scotland Fontella. Whoever we want to govern will.

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:17

SNP White Paper was better than anything the Tories have written for Brexit and you can be sure they are planning is better still at this point Smile

Fontella · 21/03/2017 16:27

I don't think the SNP would govern independent Scotland Fontella. Whoever we want to govern will.

So who might that be?

They are the only nationalist party. They are the only party seeking Scottish Independence with the exception of the Greens?

Where is this magical new party going to come from that is going to oppose them in them in parliament? Where are all the SNP politicians going to go? Straight into government is the answer to that one.

And what about all the disenfranchised pro-Unionists? They aren't going to go away either. If Scotland's economy goes tits up, they will be doing everything in their power to get her back into the UK.

How is this wonderful new government you envisage going to work exactly?

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:27

Let me be very clear...

All that can be produced when breaking a union is a wishlist, so Theresa isn't stupid enough to give us their wishlist and then the outcome be different.

Depature deals are based on negotiations and there are 2 sides.

We are in a good position to negotiate with the eu as the uk we do not know the outcome yet but know our hand is pretty good.

The SNP produced not only a fantastical wishlist but also financial projections based on commodity prices, which no longer exist.

They would have been negotiating from a weak position anyway, so they would not get what was on their wishlist.

They wouldn't care that they couldn't deliver as they would have their wish already.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:30

Their wish=Independence at any cost

Fontella · 21/03/2017 16:30

SNP White Paper was better than anything the Tories have written for Brexit and you can be sure they are planning is better still at this point

Is that the best you can come up with? Just gloss over a dossier of lies and fantasy with a one line retort about the 'Tories'.

Your arguments are just becoming even more puerile and ridiculous so there really is no point in engaging any further.

As the old saying goes - There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See.

Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome · 21/03/2017 16:36

Fontella Calyx
Exactly. IF the Scottish electorate did ever vote for independence, I am pretty sure by that point there would be a new centre left party or major shift in candidate party options.
Scottish Labour in particular have been completely stuffed having to keep in line with the UK whip as reflected in the last election.
One can see the SNP being "thanked for their contribution".

Voting for independence in a referendum is not voting for the SNP, in the same way that voting for Brexit in a referendum was not a vote for UKIP.

Am still watching proceedings. Interesting.

OP posts:
Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:38

The dastardly Tories are supposedly evil remember fontella...

Not like our god like Nicola

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:38

Fontella I didn't think the White Paper was lies and fantasy. I don't have all the arguments and am just pleased that democracy and fairness is likely to have a chance with a Scotref. I really don't want to wind people up here. I'm in a minority on this thread of course. Why get so annoyed with me? I cannot see how a referendum following the change of Brexit is wrong. I understand that independence may lose and would have to take that. I'm not getting angry like some folk.

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:39

it is a zombie apocalypse

Thegruffalowswife · 21/03/2017 16:41

calyx I don't think fontella is angry

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:41

I hope not Gruffalo

Calyx72 · 21/03/2017 16:42

Gigha yes like UKIP post Brexit.