Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

I love that Nicola is whacking herself in the head and may is joining in hahahaha............

Interview with Ruth Davidson on Sky News (no link I'm afraid).

'the SNP would find grievance in a Christmas present'

The prime minister is the leader of the democratically elected

CONSERVATIVE AND UNIONIST PARTY

how the fuck does that amount to NO MANDATE to prevent the break up of the union.

The clue is in the name

The UK is the 9th largest 'export' economy in the world.

The top exports of the United Kingdom are Gold ($41.6B), Cars ($40.8B), Packaged Medicaments ($19.9B), Gas Turbines ($14.7B) and Refined Petroleum ($13.2B)

The top export destinations of the United Kingdom are the United States (N$54.7B), Germany ($39.5B), Switzerland ($32.5B), China ($27.6B) and the Netherlands ($23.9B)
only Germany and the Netherlands are EU countries

The top import origins are Germany ($93.9B), China ($62.8B), the United States ($44.8B), the Netherlands ($44.4B) and France ($37.6B).
Germany, Netherlands and France are EU countries

You can see from the above, that trade with the UK is far more important to Germany, France and the Netherlands - the three richest Eurozone economies - than they are to us.

You cannot argue with the figures.

I find the SNP absolutely astounding in their blindness to anything other than their own soundbites. And trying to claim that Teresa may has no mandate is ludicrous.

1 we voted in 2014 and it was a resounding no

2 NS skewed the results of the brexit referendum by sounding off before it that it could trigger another Scotland referendum

3 she said a vote for the snp was not a vote for another referendum

4 she promised that the snp would represent the interests of all of the uk at Westminster (which has not happened)

5 more people voted to stay in the uk than voted to stay in the eu.

6 she can not even promise full eu membership, if we do vote for independence.

7 Polls repeatedly show no appetite for another referendum or independence.

8 over 200000 people have signed a petition to say they do not want one.

9 she is not legally allowed to hold one without permission

10 4 in 10 scots voted to leave

11 the prime minister is the leader of the democratically elected conservative and unionist party... of course that is a mandate to stop it.

so your argument is that France and Germany would have a lot to lose wrt their export market by imposing punitive tariffs on British goods if Britain retaliated. That's hopefully a powerful incentive to keep the negotiations moderate!

well yes quite.

It is not in their interests... particularly Germany to throw away uk trade.

defence is also really important. we and Poland are the only ones meeting the 2% GDP spend prescribed by NATO.

<a class="break-all" href="https://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/c_fill,f_auto,h_638,w_960/1k95i3bqziq3bboq03r87f8x-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/angesa.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/c_fill,f_auto,h_638,w_960/1k95i3bqziq3bboq03r87f8x-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/angesa.jpg

frosty relations I think not

so your argument is that France and Germany would have a lot to lose wrt their export market by imposing punitive tariffs on British goods if Britain retaliated. That's hopefully a powerful incentive to keep the negotiations moderate!

That's it in a nutshell. And I've only shown our trade with the big 3 of the EU as it were - France, Germany and Netherlands, but if you go further down the list you will see how important the UK market is to other European economies.

Our annual trade deficit with them is 23.6 billion. That is how much more other EU countries sell to us, compared to what we sell to them.

Equally nearly everything they produce can be purchased elsewhere - Japanese Cars instead of German Cars for example, New World Wines for Old World - from the Commonwealth and South American countries and so on. And if we buy from the rest of the world, that gives up greater opportunity to sell to them, particularly as we would we free to make our own reciprocal trade deals. If you look at the reaction to Brexit from countries outside the EU it is almost universally positive and they have all said they are open for business.

It makes absolutely no sense for the EU to impose punitive tariffs on the goods we sell to them, as we can just slap our own import tariffs on their goods.

I just wish Junckers and everyone else on all sides, would stop the rhetoric and name calling and threats and get on with the business of securing a deal that will benefit us all.

Once all that is settled and the UK in its entirety settles back into being an independent trading nation again (which may take some years) then that is the time for Scotland, if the will is there, to look again at the independence issue. But to do so now is just madness.

It is an older article but you get the picture

www.express.co.uk/news/world/673068/Germany-Brexit-EU-referendum-banks-economy-recession

I agree 100% Fontella.

Yes fontella. Your contributions to these forums are always well thought out. Thank you.

Wow - fair play to the Scottish opposition parties - they are giving her hell!

Live blog (if you can't watch) and televised coverage of Independence debate here ....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/21/scottish-parliament-begins-two-day-debate-nicola-sturgeons-call/

Ruth Davidson:

"...... let’s cut to the chase: the SNP’s plan was not actually about trying to hold a fair, legal and decisive referendum.

It was about a well-rehearsed game to put forward unworkable proposals, wait for Westminster politicians to point that out, then rush to any nearby microphone – angry face attached – to trot out the same old tired complaints.

This bull-dozer approach is completely at odds with the way the 2014 referendum was held.

The UK and Scottish governments worked together on proposals for a fair, legal and decisive referendum.

The Edinburgh Agreement was then signed – with both sides promising to respect the result.

How different things are today."

I'm trying to watch it but internet speed is

Read the blog instead - it precis all the good bits. Ruth Davidson was like a tiger!

I'm actually getting quite emotional with it all and I'm not even Scottish.

Here's a bit of Kezia too, she did well:

"I believe in the United Kingdom not as a symbol of past glories or purest ideology - but as a living, breathing union of nations that delivers for the people of Scotland.

The pensioners, whose income is secured through a UK state pension and benefits system.

The shipyard workers, who are in jobs because of UK defence contracts.

The staff in East Kilbride, who deliver aid to some of the poorest countries in the world on behalf of us all. "The schools that are built because of the extra money we receive by being in the UK.

The NHS that we built together that is sustained because we pool and share our resources across the whole of Britain.

The businesses, large and small, that are able to thrive because of the access they have to our UK single market.

The scientists who carry out life-saving medical research because of funding from UK research councils.

These are the things that I value most, at a time when so much of the world is ravaged by division.

When the trend in too many places is separation. I value the fact that our four nations come together to share sovereignty and resources.

That we recognise that together we’re stronger, more so than we ever could be apart."

Ruth Davidson is without a doubt the finest politician in Scotland.

She is very clear, doesn't flip flop around and thinks before she speaks.

I like her more at the moment because she tears straight in to the rhetoric of the snp (even though she is a conservative)

oooh love this bit:

'then rush to any nearby microphone – angry face attached – to trot out the same old tired complaints.'

I had never realised how much the uk meant to me until it was under threat by Scottish nationalists, while I was living here.

It became clear over the years of the snp that people become like broken records saying the same propaganda again and again not questioning it. There is always an essence of victimhood, that if you have lived anywhere else in the uk you know is not true. It is frankly weird and disconcerting.

I am disappointed that a nation of perfectly sensible people have fallen for it.

I have never felt so strongly patriotic to all of the 4 nations than I am now. When you feel fear that you will lose something so precious you become very passionate about it.

You should have heard the pm of Gibraltar go when someone questioned him on why he wanted to be british. It was like someone had just reached out and tried to crush his soul.

I understand that at the moment.

this bit i love too:

'Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale says Nicola Sturgeon wakes up every day trying to think of ways to engineer independence and this has always been her priority instead of alleviating poverty. '

Nice speeches, but we all know it's pointless debate unfortunately. The SNP and the duplicitous Greens will vote for it and that's that.

Might as well save the two days of debate.

Yes she is doing well now, but the deputy supports independence.

I cant have that so I'm still with ruth

or if he doesn't support indy he supports another referendum.

Kez has flipped and flopped in the past about it too.

This is excellent from Rennie: So they will use pro Europeans to get a referendum but sell them out to win independence. It is low politics for narrow gain.

And that's why a one-issue independence party should not be a party of government - the policies are whatever it can do to keep as broad a base as possible behind independence.