Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

Repeated referendums are common in authoritarian states actually.

Repeated referendums are common in authoritarian states actually

Interesting. Could you explain to me how Scotland meets the definition of a authoritarian state?

Gruffalo, we need to hold our nerves, I feel terrified too when I listen to the SNP's populist tweet bites because I can't believe people are buying their panglossian and dumbed down crap despite their record - I learned their economic plan is to say that Scotland has a strong economy, on loop from Sturgoen's speech. Happily, I thought it was a bit lacklustre for her.

Most reasonable people will come round to the key point that Scotland is insulated from the macro shock of Brexit thanks to the Barnett formula and most people are not stupid enough give up their insurance when imminently suspect a wildfire is coming their way.

Thank you so much no lottery win. I can not tell you how I feel at the moment, it really is beyond words.

Here is an interesting article on referendums.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/31/just-look-at-germanys-troubled-past-to-see-the-damage-referendum/amp/

Here is an interesting article on referendums.

Thanks, that was an interesting read. Very critical of the Brexit referendum.

"This same index applied to the UK already shows extreme levels of uncertainty, surpassing even the spikes around the 9/11 attacks, the Second Gulf War, the Northern Rock collapse, the global financial crisis, the European debt crisis and the Scottish independence vote. Both the Treasury and the Bank of England think that these elevated levels of uncertainty will ratchet up even further in the event of a vote to leave. No major economy has ever exited the EU before; at the very least, confusion will reign over what Britain’s future trading relationships and regulatory framework might look like afterwards. This in turn is likely to cause investment decisions to be delayed or abandoned altogether."

Yes and while I voted for brexit I can see that brexit still causes uncertainty. The problem is that adding scot exit on top of this will be a complete disaster.

while I voted for brexit

That's interesting. In what way do you see the UK seeking independence from the EU as different from Scotland seeking independence from rUK?

How would you have felt if the EU had told the UK that they couldn't have a referendum, that the UK was in danger of becoming a fascist state etc?

Sorry to tell you this but the UK is one country. It does not try to suppress the culture of the ancient countries within, that is all.

The E U is not one country.

Sorry to tell you this but the UK is one country

That is also a union of four other states.

I hate to break it to you but the EU is not exactly a utopia of racial equality.. It is far worse than the UK on just about every level.

I hate to break it to you but the EU is not exactly a utopia of racial equality

Eh? Has anyone said that?

It is far worse than the UK on just about every level.

Really?

Really?

Yes it sure is and I can't believe that people up here fall for the bullshit that it is some sort of welcoming place for immigrants.

The only person welcoming them was merkel.

France has bans on modest swimwear.

The ecj has just ruled it legal for employers to ban headscarves.

The problems in europe at the moment are because minorities are not well treated at all.

Hungarys tactics for preventing refugees arriving are

The likes of Marie Le pen and wilders are hardly uncommon in europe.

It takes the piss to claim that the tories are in any way evil and racist in comparison to europe.

Yes the snp and their followers are quite happy to ditch the rest of the country based on the current elected government being evil and jump straight in to bed with Europe.

It would be a worry if it wasn't so fucking hilarious.

The IRONY!!!

SNP are looking at EFTA or EEC or other options to be in the single market and keep free movement and in fact floated those compromises to WM only to be rebuffed

Not necessarily full EU membership

It is not possible to allow scotland those things without accepting them in england too.

There would need to be a reerecting of hadrains wall with custoMs. What she was asking for was basically independence by the back door. Of course they were going to say no. It was not possible to say yes

gruffalo - you sound like you are getting really upset by this - and I sympathise to an extent.
I was in tears voting at the last indy ref - I thought yes was going to win...I felt hated as a No voter.* I really felt like the best thing for us to do was to leave Scotland as we weren't wanted here and my DCs are at an age when the they would feel the worst of the economic impact...
But a few years ago I finally realised (over a health issue) that there is no point worrying/getting upset over something you can't change. All you do is upset yourself and waste time and energy worrying - you can only do what you can and you will deal with things the best way you can when/if you need to.... I think you do need to step away and think about something else for a wee while.

• I know that some Yes supporters feel like they were despised too - but I really think that generally that was the exception -after all you weren't labelled traitors etc. Actually when the No campaigners came round and they asked me to put up a poster and I said I didn't think I could - and they said they had come across that a lot and understood.... I don't think many Yes voters felt that way. We aren't in a predominantly Yes area but there were a good few Yes posters up (they didn't feel intimidated) ...I only saw two No posters....

I get the NS traitor thing - she is a traitor to the Union as a whole -and also really to the people of Scotland because (imo and I guess yours) she is not doing the best for Scotland -just doing everything she can to get independence. She is trying to make divisions where none exist...
(and didn't she say in the Scottish elections that a vote for the SNP was not necessarily a vote for another indy ref? - I know I definitely read that somewhere -but it might have been on here)
I think it was on this thread where it was mentioned that the devolved nations should have a say in the Brexit negotiations - but we all know if NS was involved it would be more an exercise in trying to show how terrible the tories/WM etc were - how little they cared about Scotland, it would be better off independent - undermining the negotiating position. Ready to jump on anything that is slightly less than beneficial -or even just could be portrayed that way - to a 'Scottish' industry - say farming (and ignoring the fact that industry also exists in the rest of the UK) to say the tories/WM are screwing Scotland... instead of working towards a deal that is the best for all of the UK - inc Scotland.
Scotland is going to be out of the EU for a while whether it gains independence (or rather loses the strength of the Union) or not. We need the best deal possible for all of us - not someone trying to make things as difficult as possible.

Afaik the leaders of NI or Wales didn't fly off to the EU to 'negotiate their position' more or less the day after the Brexit vote...and brexit will be potentially more damaging, cause more problems, for NI than Scotland.

Thanks unlucky. I am upset by this. It is destroying my family. (I have a few quite frightening nats in my family plus lots of english family members) I'm sorry that you felt intimidated during the last one. I was to scared to tell people what I was voting and I was constantly badgered about it

That's interesting. In what way do you see the UK seeking independence from the EU as different from Scotland seeking independence from rUK?

Is that a serious question ? Really ?

You can't tell the difference between breaking up a political, cultural and economic union which has been in place for 300 years and leaving an association of diverse and entirely separate countries and cultures of which the UK has only been a part of for 40 years , half of which were no more than for trading purposes?

I can only hope your question was disingenuous because otherwise the lack of comprehension is astonishing.

Sorry people are feeling raw on here. Best wishes to all those posting.

One point made above i do disagree with.
I never find UK media stir up anti Scottish feeling.

From reading around on the internet it seems that in the case of Nicola Sturgeon and The MP on Question Time, the sisters are doing it for themselves!

France has bans on modest swimwear.

The ecj has just ruled it legal for employers to ban headscarves

Yes , and it's the UK which is supposed to be the intolerant state. I feel I am in a parallel universe - I was a remainer but I don't recognise this EU eutopia some Nats think exist.

All right I'm not going to do this.

Peace out.

That's interesting. In what way do you see the UK seeking independence from the EU as different from Scotland seeking independence from rUK?

Actually that question is pretty bloody insensitive.

In the referendum we were told yessers love Scotland so much - they voted with their hearts unlike us evil selfish No voters voting from the head. They had passion, we were selfish; some of us were even coffin dodgers.

The EU used to be the Common Market, then the European Economic Community, then the European Community, then the European Union. A trade organisation.

I don't want to be a Scottish citizen, I don't want a sodding Scottish passport; I don't want my nationality stripped from me. I've been British.

But you think the 2 are the same.

its
That's interesting. In what way do you see the UK seeking independence from the EU as different from Scotland seeking independence from rUK?
Flip that argument around - how can someone who voted remain - vote for independence? If you think the Scots have no say in the UK...how much would they have in Brussels?

Especially if they go for some kind of single market/Norway deal rather than full membership...that's one (valid imo) criticism of that model - they would have zero say in lots of the rule making etc. Scotland's interests wouldn't be taken into account at all.

Full membership - why would 27/8 EU countries have Scotland's interest at heart more than their immediate neighbour -with who they have the closest ties and do most trade? With 'shared' finances - if Scotland does badly the UK does badly ...if Scotland succeeds the UK benefits too.
Yes you could say the same about the EU -they would want Scotland to do well - but whatever happens in Scotland will have less of an impact on the rest of the EU than it does on the UK. If it is a toss up between what's best for eg France or Scotland - France would come first....

Say Scotland makes up approx 8% of the UK population, the UK less Scotland makes up nearly 11.5% of the EU population.
Scotland on its own makes up 1% of the EU population.
That's a hell of a lot of other people's votes affecting the make up of the EU parliament.
Currently we have the minimum no - 6 - MEPs representing Scotland in a parliament made up of 751 - so 0.8%
compared to 59 out of 650 or 9% in WM.
And Scotland would really be able to have a stronger voice in Europe? Have more say?
To be fair - it is slightly different as they are arranged in multi nation parties - so more or less block vote. But would one those big parties listen more to 6 MEPs in 'their party' or would the views of say 60 MEPs from other nations hold more weight?

If you think WM will throw Scotland under a bus - what do you think eg Germany (96 MEPs) would/could do?

Exactly

weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/the-cow-in-the-caravan/

This explains it quite well, in simple language...