Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

itsall why are you letting the SNP get away with not using the powers they've got because they don't have control over the personal allowance? A genuinely left of centre party that wanted to look after the worst off and defend them from austerity would have used the powers to raise taxes they've already got far more extensively. This is the SNP being allowed to get away with making Westminster based excuses. If austerity is biting in Scotland, the SNP should be held to account more for not using the powers they've got.

Has anyone noticed that Facebook doesn't seem to have the usual suspects posting pro-independence stuff? My friends who are very pro SNP seem to have gone very quiet. I thought Sturgeon's announcement would have had the opposite effect.

I've had my cousin being a xenophobic nut job again so.... some are not being so quiet.

Am I wrong in saying if the Scottish government raised taxes and therefore raised money to spend, the block grant would be cut by the same amount, rendering it meaningless and at the same time generating ill-feeling towards the SG? Isn't that the 'trap'?

Gruff, I hate to mention it but you are the only one on this thread saying nasty things about 'the English

Maybe it is just my Facebook feed that the referendum announcement has been a bit of a damp squib. I thought it would kick off again.

Queen I work with a very pro indy SNP voter and campaigner. On Monday she couldn't contain her excitement. She danced put of her office to inform is all of the wonderful news.

Tuesday barley a word from her it was strange as she has been going on for weeks about her campaigning for the local elections.

Has anyone noticed that Facebook doesn't seem to have the usual suspects posting pro-independence stuff?

Actually, I had noticed this. Last time around my feed was full of pro-indy shares and comments from a number of people. This time around I think I've seen two likes of something vaguely supportive of independence but that's it. Perhaps even the Indy supporters realise now isn't the time?

I'm not sure Nyx but even if that were true, by your earlier arguments it'd be a more honest taste of life under independence - this even without the shock of brexit or independence yet too!

Fontella that was a nice speech by May, and I see no mention of getting rid of the barnett formula either.

I don't understand how it would be an honest taste of life under independence, sorry?

if income taxes were raised to backfill money lost from transfers from the RUK through the barnett formula.

Money lost from the Barnett formula would be replaced by keeping all our own tax receipts etc which currently go down south. Fiscal autonomy.

Money raised from raising taxes here would then be on top of that and not be ' balanced' by a cut in Barnett.

It seems to me that this is a 'battle' (for want of a better word) that has to be fought inside Scotland.

It's not about the rest of the UK as ultimately we have no say anyway - it's what those of you who live in Scotland want. It will affect us obviously, but we can't influence anything.

First stage is the Scottish Parliament. The SNP couldn't even get this through without the Greens. So would it be worth lobbying Green Party MSP members - long shot I know, but maybe if people expressed how uncomfortable they are with the timing of this etc. it might have some impact or am I being delusional?

Secondly if a referendum does go ahead, albeit unofficially, then opposition to it needs to come from inside Scotland. Personally I think a load of non-Scottish politicians and commentators stirring the pot hinders, rather than helps, and is just used as ammo by the SNP anyway. But a determined, organised Scottish Remain campaign by Scottish people - preferably one run on non-political lines?

Then there's also the ballot box. The council elections are coming up on 4th May and the SNP are expecting a landslide. It's another way to show them that people are unhappy.

Re: Facebook- maybe it's their algorithm where if you don't 'like' or interact with those posts, it shows you less of them?

why are you letting the SNP get away with not using the powers they've got because they don't have control over the personal allowance

I don't vote for them. What else should I do?

Plus if what NYX said is correct there is no point in taxing Scottish citizens more heavily if it doesn't benefit them (no overall gain in cash)

Fontella, I agree that voters in Scotland can and should get out and vote in great numbers to show what they want. If there is a good turn-out for local council elections that will be a good thing. If unionist parties do well, so be it.

good news ItsAll, glad to hear that.

Nyx I clearly need to get more information on how taxes work in Scotland before an independence campaign starts in earnest, but simply put: upping taxes and losing barnett money should mimic the situation of independence where no extra money will come to Scotland from RUK (absent the reductions to tax revenue of brexit and independence).

In a way though I think it is a bad thing. I'm a bit worried people are going to blindly vote SNP I'd they support indy and Tories if they don't. Local democracy is really important, and in some ways distant from National policy.

Where I am, the Labour councillor has done a great job, and the SNP councillors have been making some stupid decisions due to petty politicking.

Because councillors brand to actually have more of an impact on microscale local stuff in many ways it is more important to vote for a good councillor, rather than the political party IYSWIM.

I do think the council elections will in large part end up being a test run of the referendum though.

heartily agree about good councillors being worth their weight in gold, close family member is a labour councillor and she does a lot of good through her case work in particular and spends so many hours trying to co-ordinate different services for people.

Now one of the SNP is claiming that the EU would much prefer to have Scotland as a member rather than 'Little Britain'.

Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh said on Sky News:

“I think if the EU was offered a choice on who they’d prefer to be part of the EU, I would hope that Scotland would be a preferred option.”

Is she deluded or what?

Would that be the same 'Little Britain' that is the 2nd largest net contributor?

The same 'Little Britain' that is one of only 9 countries paying in more than they get out.

Is Scotland going to take up the slack in the EU budget created by the UK's departure? I think not!

You couldn't make some of this stuff up. Do they honestly believe the crap they are spouting?

ps look what happened to Charles Kennedy, victim of blind SNP voting if ever I saw it. Politics is a tough old game.

upping taxes and losing barnett money should mimic the situation of independence where no extra money will come to Scotland from RUK

With respect, you are missing the point.

UK in full control of tax, Scottish tax rate the same.
Scotland gets x via Barnett.

Scotland varies tax rate and gets an extra £5. So England lowers Barnett by £5. Scotland ends up with the same amount of money as before, but is paying more tax

fontella either they are terribly, terribly stupid, or very cynical and believe the people voting for them are really stupid. 'Little Britain' - this is them saying it to make it sound like it's true..

its i completely meant that. My point was, the SNP should do this and lose barnett money if they are so keen to lose it through independence. I also wonder whether they can raise some taxes (LBTT, council tax) and keep that money without losing barnett - think that IS true because they have done so, so could hike council tax further to pay for education or the NHS for example.