Second referendum part 2

[Gighasmokedhalibutisawesome]

Any appetite for a continuance or have I missed the new thread?
There was quite a heated squabble respectful exchange of views so I am sure there is more to be said......

I don't think anyone is saying it will happen, funding for Scotland is just yet another unknown, we can't assume the status quo will continue.

What would I cut? The last 3 years from my life and start over!

Cuts, like Winter, are coming either way. We will definitely lose the EU grants and there is little certainty that WM will cover the loss.

I don't know what to vote! I don't like ANY of the options, just want to make a buzzword/buzzfeed free choice, where I feel that the questions I have are not minimised by political bias on either side.

I am not sure there is much point in sharing an alternative perspective on a Referendum and possible independence but here goes.

We are too small, we are too skint. Lets take this as a hypothetical starting point.

How do we grow and become more productive to pay the bills and support the less able? More industry, more jobs, more opportunity. Attracting skilled migrants. More people paying more taxes.

How is that likely to happen?
Motivated and trained workforces, dedicated lobbying.
Outward looking policies and freedom to trade. A shift from reliance on the public sector. Energy. Pride and effort. And admittedly, economies of scale.

Will there ever be the motivation, will and support for this under a Conservative Westminster parliament? Hows it been going so far, do we think?

While it shouldnt actually be relevant in an opinion forming debate, I am not a nationalist. I am not even a SNP voter. However I would not sweep independence off the table just because the -current economics may not stack up. Particularly when we cannot even predict the future wealth (and "handouts") of the mothership. I can well understand why some supporters of independence think there is nothing to lose.

Re the limb analogy sometimes amputation is necessary to prevent gangrene.

This thread makes me even more convinced that only a radical resetting of our relationship within the UK, Europe and ROW will break the torpor and blame culture I see here.

I dont think the North East and other areas are different, I just dont have a vote that can help them.

NB I do take issue with equating London to Edinburgh. They are not just different places, they are different planets, and London is the over-heated elephant in the UK room regarding all talk of economy, policy, investment and job opportunity.

From what I understand, waiting and watching to propose a vote would reduce Scotland's voice at the Brexit bargaining table. What will May need to promise the EU, if indeed there is a deal, to prevent then from embracing Scotland in the Single Market?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/14/employers-can-ban-staff-from-wearing-headscarves-european-court-rules

Oh the wonderful liberal europe, why oh why can't we stay lol...

What are those policies? If we could do in in an independent Scotland maybe we could do it with one in the Union too?

I'm guessing things like investing in wind/ocean renewables rather than slashing subsidies, spending rather less.on defence, investing in NHs and comprehensive welfare to cut down on costs.in the long term.

Of course all these things could also be done by WM, many people agree that austerity is not the answer, but WM has different priorities.

And lets be clear the article I have posted is from the most pro eu lefty paper in the bloody world.

being dependent on oil resources makes me feel Scotland is uniquely unqualified to be independent personally and I don't believe in it although I do love Scotland more than I can say with words. Where is the booming economic growth from the SNP? Scotland has the EU now, Scotland is part of the UK now. We should be holding the SNP to account about Scotland's economic growth too. I don't honestly see how the SNP are going to govern better under independence with less money.

Have the IMF done a comparative analysis of the challenges facing a post-Brexit UK and an independent Scotland? That would make interesting reading.

It would indeed. Is it too much to hope that they would do this?

I actually don't think Scotland is uniquely unqualified to be independent ever, but it's only realistic to say that we're in a very weak position to do it now (I wouldn't want to anyway, but that's another argument)

Weaker than a UK out of the EU?

Our economy needs to improve massively to make it feasible - I don't think it's good enough to just hope everything falls into place afterwards, especially as it will be the vulnerable who lose out the most in these things.

Again, see Brexit...

Our english neighbours are all rich tory xenophobes who dream of the empire , they don't welcome their immigrants.

We welcome the small number we have except for the english ones

Why can't we sell our soul to Brussels to prove how liberal we are?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/14/employers-can-ban-staff-from-wearing-headscarves-european-court-rules

Raising money:

I would charge WM an unreasonable and eye watering fee for us to keep Trident until they sort out a replacement location. When they do, I would use the funds Scotland contributes to reimagine the site as a research centre, tasked with creating innovative ideas/methods to boost the economy. Keep the people employed but use their brains to build effective natural power, tech industry etc.

being dependent on oil resources makes me feel Scotland is uniquely unqualified to be independent

So how countries with no oil resources manage?

Where is the booming economic growth from the SNP?

The Scottish government is impacted by the austerity agenda, and spending decisions of the UK government.

countries with no oil do not have economies that are used to depending on it. Re:

The Scottish government is impacted by the austerity agenda, and spending decisions of the UK government.

How? Can you explain in detail please? I'm genuinely interested - as i see it the SNP could raise taxes today and end austerity in Scotland. Austerity if it is affecting Scotland is their choice to not lose votes.

I would keep free at the point of use further education, but include in a degree course a period where people work for the improvement of our society, for a living wage. That would certainly help our students be job ready when they graduate, and help cover the cost of their education.

You can remained all you like but can't crate with no money.

Scotland supports trident according to the social attitudes survey.

Reimagine and create

I would charge WM an unreasonable and eye watering fee for us to keep Trident until they sort out a replacement location

If you carry on with that rhetoric english people english people may well be hoping for a serious malfunction?

I would change our social welfare system, if you are out of work you would have access to a business incubator and mentor to help hone skills, and until a job comes along there are loads of stuff needed to be done for the benefit of the community, to keep "working" while on benefits.

in any negotiation, as soon as Scotland tried to impose a punitive cost on RUK, say over trident, a punitive cost would be found to charge Scotland (negotiations over Scotland's share of the debt, for example). I believe the reason negotiations are so tricky is that as soon as you reach for a punitive option you get a retaliation.

gighas
^How do we grow and become more productive to pay the bills and support the less able? More industry, more jobs, more opportunity. Attracting skilled migrants. More people paying more taxes.
How is that likely to happen?
Motivated and trained workforces, dedicated lobbying.
Outward looking policies and freedom to trade. A shift from reliance on the public sector. Energy. Pride and effort. And admittedly, economies of scale.^

I would say motivated and trained workforces originate from a good education system. Which is something the Scottish government can and should be concentrating on. It is my no.1 worry for the future ...we really are failing children at the moment and especially ones from more deprived backgrounds.

Also things like Energy. Pride and effort are not encouraged when you have a party in government with a negative outlook. Who are constantly blaming WM for all the ills of the world -working against them not with them. And basically telling Scottish people WM don't want Scotland to succeed, they just want to steal from Scotland and throw it under a bus. Breeds a feeling there is no point trying as your effort will just benefit someone else...
Also as I said I don't actually think the SNP want Scotland to thrive in the Union -as if it does and people are content they won't want to risk change - vote for independence.

Yes gruff if I were to be asked to house a big old nuclear bomb next door to my kids school, it'll not be free.

Weaker than a UK out of the EU?

Yes. The UK is a much larger economy, and they tend to do better, plus all of the economic fundamentals are stronger for the UK as a whole than in Scotland. Brexit will undoubtedly weaken the UK economy a bit, at least in the short term, but it's hardly going to destroy it. Who is seriously suggesting it will at this point?

How? Can you explain in detail please?

You'll get better detail if you Google, but two examples to get you started.

Block grants are based on what is spent in England/Wales. If less is spent on the English NHS, less is given to Scotland to the Scottish NHS.

The UK spends over 2% of its GDP on defence, most other countries in Europe spend far less.

RE the Scottish government putting up taxes I wish they would. However I don't think they have complete control still? I don't think they can change the tax free allowance amount for example.

Brexit will undoubtedly weaken the UK economy a bit, at least in the short term, but it's hardly going to destroy it. Who is seriously suggesting it will at this point?

I don't think anyone has suggested that it will. The point is if Scotland remains in the UK, Brexit will not the Scottish (and UK) economy hard. If Scotland becomes independent it may have an impact on the economy.

Neither choice is a guaranteed "safe" option.

Theresa May speaking at the Welsh Conservative Conference in Cardiff today ....

You may or may not want to listen to the whole thing. If not she talks about the Union/SNP from 22 minutes in to just past 26 minutes.

I believe the reason negotiations are so tricky is that as soon as you reach for a punitive option you get a retaliation

To play in to the stereotype of english people being nasty bastards they could very much cut off all trade and watch mercilessly as scotland crumbles to the ground. I wouldn't blame them after this.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say cutting off nose to spite face... more trimming of toenails to spite leg actually.