Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

user I will say again - if Scotland does vote for independence who will be making all the arrangements on our behalf?
The reality is the SNP will be mainly in charge.

With their current track record do you think they will be up to the job?
You mention education - yes that is a disaster and that is a devolved issue overseen by the SNP - the problems aren't about investment from WM - it is more about policies, mismanagement by the politicians and lack of funding is due to impact of the council tax freeze)
(Mismanagement - I already mentioned the stupidity of '600hrs' early childcare - the 1140/30hrs a week for all children coming in is also causing a massive headache to councils - eg school nurseries that used to run a morning and afternoon sessions will only be able to do one session - effectively halving the number of places they can offer - and those extra places have to be found by council depts already suffering lack of funds due to the impact of the council tax freeze - which means other areas are being neglected. And this is one relatively small thing...the SNP trying to score political points with someone else sorting out the chaos they cause.)
The white paper for the previous indy ref was a work of fiction - a wish list, a fantasy.
As shown by NS's performance and bluster over brexit - that went down well in WM didn't it? She didn't get what she (purportedly) wanted with her arrogant attitude and posturing ....how would independence negotiations be any different?
Why are Scotland's needs so different from say the NE of England?

They aren't really. Or rather part of Scotland, more or less the whole North of England, parts of the rest of England and Wales . The loss of industries, mines, fishing etc have had the same impact there too. You could have policies that could help them and areas of Scotland. As a group together they would wield more power - they have a stronger voice - one more likely to be heard. If only there was a party that represented their interests better -but I live in hope and I think itf anything the rise of the SNP has been detrimental to the formation of an effective opposition.
Scotland also has the farming belt, the political elite etc - it wouldn't be different in an independent Scotland... illustrated by you saying how great it would be if Edinburgh was a financial capital....so the banking sector there earns huge sums and the rest feeling poor in comparison. Edinburgh could be the new London ...the centre of a new SE, with crazy house prices etc and supported by poorly paid mainly immigrant workers... the Morningside elite rather than Islington elite.
Like I said I don't believe the SNP are a socialist party - they adopted
those policies to attract the disillusioned Labour supporters. So in our brave new Scotland which party would truly be representing the poor? - just as in England they would have no real alternative -there still would be no real credible opposition - at least in the foreseeable future...
How many terms of government (and damage done) will it take for the scales to fall from people's eyes and they see the SNP for what they truly are?
Even if Scotland can't change the overall party in power in WM it can change the extent of a majority ...which in contentious policies can make a huge difference. (Like the SNP MPs opposing the change in Sunday opening hours in England....)

So it's the SNP's fault that they have no effective opposition. Not sure how that works.

If the SNP was a socialist party, they'd have used their tax raising powers more extensively, left independence alone as it isn't in the interest of the poorest, and accepted that given the huge 9.5% current budget deficit they are far better off in the UK. The SNP won't hike income tax because it will reduce the number of people that support independence.

I agree too

Did anyone watch the tracy ullman impressions.

i looove tracey ullman. I was going to post the clips - especially the one with Rowling in it, but decided it'd be goady. Ullman has a special place in my heart for that. I also love the opening sequence with the little girl and the ones with Carole Middleton and Prince George :)

Interesting on EU, EEA and deficit re iScotland.

eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/scotland-eu-and-indyref2-legal-issues.html?m=1

Also independence isn't just about the SNP as I have said before.

The petition against the referendum has now reached over 150000 signatures and it seems there is a lot at anger in Scotland about this right now. The pro referendum petition is limping along at 20000 signatures.

Calyx this is terribly written for something purporting to be serious - avoiding deficit criteria is something that will ruin iScotland's ability to borrow and fast-track it to needing a bailout.

Even this guy agrees 'Of course, a large deficit is going to cause a country other difficulties besides EU membership'. Too right mate.

This bit:
'Anyway, this is certainly more say over EU laws than Scotland would get after Brexit as part of the UK' - absolutely no comparative analysis of the way Scotland has influenced UK laws. This is not scholarly at all.

It was brilliant!!! I grew up watching several shows ripping the piss out of politicians, yet sturgeon somehow seemed to have managed to avoid it until then. I wondered why because no comedian could be short on material when dealing with Sturgeon. I wondered if it was a fear thing especially with the cybernats etc.

Anyway I certainly enjoyed it, particularly the one with the poufy har and the beige cheeks.

www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201703/large-857156-img-0646.png

Gosh queen labeefah it is getting loads of signatures isnt it. Do you know when it is going to get heard in parliment.

i loved the poufy har too - I had tears rolling down my cheeks. Yes, i don't see why Sturgeon should be exempt from satire. The Merkel sketches are brilliant too - the running gag of Sturgeon wanting to be Merkel is great.

Yes I was gutted when it wasn't on on friday. I'll be tuning in tomorrow night for a giggle :)

Ullman's got some new material now!

Scottish people voted for labour and regularly got labour governments.

Only because England/Wales also voted for Labour. Scottish votes make no difference.

When you're part of a union, you accept that you give up some autonomy for the benefits of being part of that union

A union suggests some sort of equality between the countries. Are you seriously suggesting that E/W/NI/S are all treated equally within the union?

Yes. I wonder if she'll do another series. Her mhari black impersonation was fab too!!! Lets hope Nikki is not still queen of scots, when the next series comes round :)

Morning all

Glad to see the debate is still going - and very interesting reading it is too! I'm going to try not to get involved today so I can actually get some work done!

However, I do have a question for Scottish posters re the forthcoming local council elections on May 4th which the pundits are saying will be dominated by even further SNP successes.

Of the 32 Scottish local authorities - most are currently Labour controlled, and only 2 controlled by the Conservatives - Scottish Borders and South Ayrshire; with five Independent - Argyll and Bute, Highland, Na h-Eileanan Siar, Orkney and Shetland. The Lib Dems control none.

Of the remainder 15 are Labour controlled and 10 SNP controlled, although across all 32 councils, the SNP have more seats.

Council seats

SNP 426
Labour 394
Conservative 115
Lib Dems 71

All the predictions are saying that the Labour vote is going to collapse so is it safe to assume that the SNP will make further gains and control more councils? And if that happens would that not be seen by them as an endorsement of their plans to hold a 2nd referendum?

If the Labour vote collapses as predicted, then who else are disenchanted Labour voters going to vote for? I would have thought it highly unlikely they would vote Conservative, which just leaves the Lib Dems or Independent candidates - neither of whom can mount any viable opposition to the SNP.

It just seems like they are an unstoppable steamroller .. and I just wondered what your thoughts are on all this?

Let's hope and campaign for it...equality between each country would be disproportionate representation based on the number of people in that country ItsAllGoing, people are represented according to their number. The SNP voters that consider themselves to be left wing have splintered the labour party vote in Britain with their 'faux socialism in one country' mantra. Corbyn has further damaged the cause of getting a centre-left party in charge of Britain.

.Scottish votes make no difference.

Every scottish vote makes the same difference as every english vote.

If we vote together for a party that represents the needs of scotland and some similar areas of england (like the north and the south west) and Wales and Northern Ireland we stand a very good chance of making headway at Westminster. Voting for hostile nationalist parties only makes it more likely for a tory government in Westminster to succeed.

The nationalists know that and love it when the tories get in so they can stoke more division.

No lottery win - I didn't say it was scholarly or well written, just interesting.

Oh the Queen just granted formal approval to Article 50 so the UK Government can trigger Brexit. Trigger is a very good choice of words there . Hello economic hard times entirely on the choice of T May following a very small majority for Brexit on an advisory only referendum voted on following a campaign of lies and more lies.

Bring on independence for Scotland please please

Fontella this lifelong labour voter couldn't vote last time (for labour) first time I've not voted. This time I'm voting tory (and not telling my husband) because Ruth Davidson looks like the best opposition to Sturgeon and I won't vote Labour whilst that utter fool is in charge. I don't know if I'm representative.

Calyx this is my general problem with the advice the SNP bases its decisions on - surely it ought to be scholarly and thought out? They seem to accept any advice from people that agree with them without it passing any sort of merit tests.

Yes, let's make a bad situation worse Calyx, it's the opposite of Rastamouse :)

The Conservatives have been consistently gaining popularity. They are the main opposition now in holyrood. ( nobody would tell you they voted for them though)

They are strong on the union and ruth is actually very popular (even with people who love to hate the tories) I would not be surprised to see them making considerable gains.

Is the labour vote predicted to collapse bearing in mind indyref2 or was that a previous prediction?

Surely the half of Scotland who don't want indy2 will vote against the SNP?

(Above response was for fontella)