Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

You say that Westminster is a shambles because the government has no credible opposition, and you accept that the SNP are a disaster (with no opposition in Scotland), but you think independence is a solution to this? You think the SNP will let go of power in an independent Scotland?

Do you believe that any deal with rUK, assuming EFTA membership is even possible, will be as favourable as the current barrier-free relationship? Given that it's our biggest trading partner by miles, surely even modest barriers will be very damaging?

And the SNP will always hold the reigns here, you are happy with that

Unlike with the Westminster government, if Scots get fed up with the SNP holding the "reigns", the SNP can be voted out.

I think it is fear that will stop people voting Yes as it was last time. We can see that our WM govt is a shambles. There is no opposition and there won't be for the next 10 years. It is time to take responsibility for ourselves. Or shut up. Which we never can do.

To me this just feels very short sighted. I'm not disagreeing that the current government is a load of shite, but to use the current lot of politicians we have as the basis for permanently altering the course of Scottish history... It just doesn't feel right to me.

Unlike with the Westminster government, if Scots get fed up with the SNP holding the "reigns", the SNP can be voted out.

I'm a Scot who's been fed up with the SNP holding the reigns for 8 years. They don't seem to be going anywhere from where I'm sitting. Can you really not see how non-SNP voting Scots feel exactly the same way about them as Yes voters feel about WM?

I agree that at the moment it seems as though WM are the grown ups and the Scottish government are childish (I'd have said petulant teenager personally), but I live in hope that in the not too distant future the people of Scotland will come to their senses and stop voting in the SNP. We already have the tools to transform Scotland as we see fit without the drastic and destructive step of independence, if only we had more grown up leadership.

Given the poor quality of leadership we currently have in Scotland, I doubt that we'd suddenly have great leadership after independence. And given how hard a time that would be, weak leadership at that time doesn't bear thinking about. Whatever happened a few years down the line, that initial period would be handled by the SNP and shaped according to their vision. Given their track record, I don't have much confidence in that going well.

Sorry MofD I meant that in a "ongoing history" sense. I try to do things about it. I'm engaged with local, Scottish and UK wide politics, I contact my MP and MSP. But as I don't vote the same way as the majority in either situation, all I can do is carry on as I am. Make my voice heard and hope that others agree.

No problem in continuing that if we are in the EFTA. We would be free to make our own deal with rUK.

You have to be realistic. The trade we do with ruk is more imprtant to us than it is to them.

I have more confidence in the UK government going into Brexit talks than I have in the SNP doing, well, anything really. I also have more confidence in the WM system as a whole than the Scottish system, which lacks the same checks and balances, especially given that the dominant party (SNP) doesn't allow any dissent.

I don't know what the SNP would have to offer once independence was achieved

TBH I don't think they'd have anything to offer. I kind of assume that the SNP would disband, and parties like Tories / Lab / Lib Dem would have a bit of a resurgence.

Can you really not see how non-SNP voting Scots feel exactly the same way about them as Yes voters feel about WM?

Let me rephrase what I said. If every voter in Scotland voted for SNP in the general elections, there would never be an SNP government in Westminster. Scottish voters may as well not bother.

In Scottish elections, the make up of the parliament broadly represents the %age of people who voted for a particular party. If every voter on Scotland voted for a particular party in the Scottish parliament, then that is the government they would get.

Let me rephrase what I said. If every voter in Scotland voted for SNP in the general elections, there would never be an SNP government in Westminster. Scottish voters may as well not bother

Of course there wouldn't english people and the other nations would not vote for scottish nationalists. It would be fucking madness.

Scottish people voted for labour and regularly got labour governments.

UK-Scottish trade is worth 6% of UK GDP and 78% of Scottish GDP.

Why would the uk give us anything favourable if we leave after being obnoxious little shits, antagonising and trying to scupper brexit.

You really need to put this in to perspective.

Let me rephrase what I said. If every voter in Scotland voted for SNP in the general elections, there would never be an SNP government in Westminster. Scottish voters may as well not bother.

Why would you even think it should happen? Scotland has 5 million people. England and Wales have 58 million. When you're part of a union, you accept that you give up some autonomy for the benefits of being part of that union (sound familiar ) ... and Scotland does benefit financially from the union.

Scotland has much more autonomy than it lets on - control of the NHS, education and tax raising powers which have only just started to be used, even though the Scottish parliament has had them for some time. But no, far easier for NS to bleat on about the horrible nasty English.

If scoland throw the toys out of the pram over brexit they need to be prepared for the uk to not give a shit and walk away....

I am deadly serious. I love scotland, but if you think brexit is enough to throw away the union then you need to prepare for the fact your childeren and grandchildren may never recover from the consequences

I won't be here to see it as I'll have left.

yes again motherofdragons, for the poorest the shock of brexit and independence isn't which scenario we choose, it's 2 shocks to the Scottish economy both. The chocolate analogy is a good one. I've been thinking about flags - perhaps we should start showing all the UK's flags and the Union Jack at No campaign meetings to make the point that Scotland is turning its back on Wales and Northern Ireland, not just England.

That's a reason to change the voting system.

I have more confidence in the UK government going into Brexit talks than I have in the SNP doing, well, anything really. I also have more confidence in the WM system as a whole than the Scottish system, which lacks the same checks and balances, especially given that the dominant party (SNP) doesn't allow any dissent.

100% agree. The SNP have bought themselves another 2 years of lack of scrutiny and blaming WM at every turn.

That was a response to ItsAllGoing