Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

It is just a repeat of the exact same question for no apparent reason.

this thread has kicked off a bit since I last posted.

Anyone listened to David Davis' evidence to the select committee earlier today? I've not managed to listen yet but I'm not impressed with the snippets I've been reading on twitter & the Brexit threads.

the case for full self-government ultimately transcend the issues of Brexit, of oil, of national wealth and balance sheets and of passing political fads and trends

Wow! NS has changed her tune. In 2014 it was all, "the question isn't should Scotland become an independent country but could Scotland become an independent country" ie all about the economy.

The SNP specifically said their case for independence was not about Scotland having a distinct identity. But that's surely the only reason to have independence if it isn't about

Brexit, ie remaning in the EU,

oil - who wants to have an economy based on oil anyway - the best thing for the climate is to leave the oil under the ground, we have no more claim to it than rUK and oil prices have plummeted,

national wealth [etc] - well quite as we have a mahoosive defict,

fads and trends - frustration at the current cons government

That statement from her confirms my impression that she has no principles and will do anything for independence.

I really hope that there is a threshold of 75% agreed this time around.

She ignored it because if we are in it we have to accept goods coming in tariff free and exporters would send their stuff from scotland. As per free movement people would be able to come and go willy nilly.

It would result in part of the union having a hard border with customs at a newly erected hadrains wall.

Plus many other problems.

It basically was asking for independence by the back door.

It was a ridiculous ask and that is why TM has not listened. She can not be expected to take that request seriously surely.

I believe that the threshold should be at least 60% in favour of independence - it is too important and drastic a decision to be based on a simple majority.

The bottom line for dh and I is that, even if we decide to stay until a referendum, we would not be able to stay here if Scotland becomes independent. We would have to move, and it would break my heart.

Me too sdt

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4316762/amp/Davis-says-SNP-didn-t-WANT-deal-Brexit.html

The petition is at 135000 now

Meh, I don't think I'll be trying to persuade anyone to vote yes, or posting anything related to SNP. I won't really have to, and people have a knee-jerk reaction to SNP.

All I'll have to do is talk/post about things related to Brexit/EU etc. Tory expenses scandal, David Davies lack of any facts and figures, EU positive response to Scotland joining, National Farmers Union talking about cost to farmers of leaving EU, loss of EU workers from NHS etc.

it's clear from watching Sturgeon's interview on c4 news that she would never get behind any deal the tories managed to strike on Brexit - this was simply about her positioning Scotland as being condescended to.

Sturgeon and salmond were clear that it was a once in a lifetime vote.

I would like to see that honoured. There should be 50 years until the next one.

Is anyone posting on this thread actually assured by Davis' comments re Brexit from his select committee appearance earlier? It's all very well posting scathing opinion pieces & comments on NS/SNP/indyref2 but how do any of you counter the likes of keeptrudging's comment? Because like it or not, the tories making a total fuck up of Brexit will play right into NS's agenda - all the facts/figures/projections of independence Armageddon for Scotland won't make a blind difference to the debate while you have total arses like Davis in charge of Brexit.

*Meh, I don't think I'll be trying to persuade anyone to vote yes, or posting anything related to SNP. I won't really have to, and people have a knee-jerk reaction to SNP.

All I'll have to do is talk/post about things related to Brexit/EU etc. Tory expenses scandal, David Davies lack of any facts and figures, EU positive response to Scotland joining, National Farmers Union talking about cost to farmers of leaving EU, loss of EU workers from NHS etc.*

Yes that is very smart. There are no possible sensible reasons to back a yes vote, but if you can stir up enough hate about Brexit and it being the fault of "the english" then you might get some more yessers. After all it is not about securing the best future for scotland it is about hating "the english".

It has been the same old story all along.

No I won't be changing my vote. Not a chance.

i hear you plectrum - I'm not confident in the conservatives' leadership but I don't see how this can be avoided given labour's weakness. What can we do? We need an anti hard brexit lib-lab coalition but JC obviously isn't the man to build this. If there are to be huge job losses from Brexit as predicted, Scotland can't avoid these even if it eventually goes for EU membership, it's by no means clear that those jobs would come back with eventual EU membership. So although there may well be a knee jerk reaction against job losses forecast from Brexit, independence won't protect those jobs and that needs to become clearer.

We're you a no lord percy?

I'm a no

I think they are doing very well considering the continuous threats and from the devolved governments.

I think we will come out of bresit, slightly frazzled, but better in the long term.

Of course we'd all like to avoid wto tariffs and that is why Mr Davis has not planned for it.
.
Having said that Oz has been trading very successfully on WTO tariff for years so let us not get too hysterical.

Is anyone posting on this thread actually assured by Davis' comments re Brexit from his select committee appearance earlier? It's all very well posting scathing opinion pieces & comments on NS/SNP/indyref2 but how do any of you counter the likes of keeptrudging's comment? Because like it or not, the tories making a total fuck up of Brexit will play right into NS's agenda - all the facts/figures/projections of independence Armageddon for Scotland won't make a blind difference to the debate while you have total arses like Davis in charge of Brexit

Actually yes I was reassured by what David Davis had to say.

I fail to see what facts and figures about Scottish Independence have to do with Brexit negotiations. How do you even make that connection?

And the 'Tories' haven't yet made a fuck up of the Brexit negotiations although plenty have tried to scupper them so far. Article 50 hasn't yet been triggered and no negotiations have even begun.

What has that to do with an independent Scotland? In what way are the two issues even connected?

Gruffalo, I mean no disrespect here but your comment is dismissive and just as pie in the sky as pro indyref2 arguments. We are 9 mths into brexit, article 50 will be triggered shortly and we have no costings? Where's the due diligence on what is actually best for the whole of the U.K. with specific reference to each region's concerns? If the Tories haven't even costed worse case scenario to work back from there to get a reasonable idea of what's workable/achievable/affordable so they know where the red lines are in brexit negotiations, how on earth do you come to the conclusion were all going to end up better off?

The link below is to an article in the independent on the leaked report on where they are - I can't vouch for the information they are reporting on but on current form I seriously doubt the Tories have the 1st clue how to achieve an outcome that comes close to what's in the UK's best interest, never mind looking at what Scotland's needs/concerns are.

Link

They are not connected. If primark sold more pink underwear in scotland than it did in england, that would be enough for Nikki to trigger another referendum. Any single thing she can find to present scotland as different to england will be dragged up by her to cause trouble. She is literally playing with scotland's future and I loathe her for that.

'What has that to do with an independent Scotland? In what way are the two issues even connected?' Seriously?

NS is claiming she tried to compromise and make out she did her best but big bad May just wuldn't listen and she really really doesn't want to call an indy ref but what else can she do and all her followers are lapping it up.

No dear what you did was waltz in with your list of impossible demands and an ultimation give me these or we go for Indy. She did not have the grace to have the British Flag along with the Scottish Flag at bute house when May first came up (yet had the Irish Flag when the Irish President came). NS hates the UK and has no interest in staying in it.

No wonder May told her to sling it. NS would not and will not be reasonable she wants to stir it and her and the yes followers are all in for a shock. I think it's clear the silent majority are not going to be silent any more.

That is not a surprise - our neighbour Ireland raises about as much in taxes and manages to provide health, education and social protection. What Ireland doesn't do is pay for the remnants of empire in the form of a big defence budget, large embassies and the lot.
This sums up the argument really ...
Ireland can - so Scotland can too....
Would that be the Ireland that charges 100 euros for an A&E visit, has a cap of 144 euros on prescription drugs a month and charges up to 60 euros for a GP appt - basically doesn't have free healthcare for all...not what we are used to -is it?
The same Ireland where I am pretty sure you have to buy school books for your DCs...And the one that needed bailing out ...
Right -yep -that sounds like a positive comparison...not what I would vote for personally.
And for Indy1 wasn't there talk about 'sharing' embassies? I, for one, would like access to an embassy if I was in trouble overseas. And it would be crazy to have two embassies -a rUK embassy and a Scottish one...(unless the SNP think rUK should pay for them but the Scots can use them ...)
But then it is like a pp said - it would be like a divorce and in general running two households is more expensive than one. Scotland would need lots of new government depts/civil servants - just wondering what that will do to the deficit...

And as to looking at uncertain times ahead...we are - so who would you trust more to deal with those? - WM or the SNP?...
Well for a start WM has the House of Lords - a check - they can send things back and say Are you sure you want to do this? Sure you have thought it though? What about this ? And this?
Scottish parliament doesn't have that (because of the way the voting system is set up in theory means no party has a majority) - if there is a majority party there is no way to stop a policy based on a political agenda...if the MSPs toe the party line - and there seems no danger of SNP MSPs not doing...(they aren't allowed not to are they?)
There is an argument that if Scotland has a second chamber it would have stopped a lot of the SNPs fuck ups.
My favourite eg is the 600 hrs of free early years education...that is 3.1578 hrs per normal school day - or 3hrs 9.47 min - or 3hrs 9min 28.42s ....the only reason it is 600hrs is political - that seems a lot - a good figure for a headline. If they said 15hrs a week people would realise that is the same as they have had down in England for ages. 600hrs is not practical but who cares about silly little things like practicalities - as long as you have a good headline.
As for proven competency ...well you just have to look at the mess of the education system ...England is far from perfect but they haven't had the same widening attainment gap or loss in PISA rank ...and worse this isn't measuring the abilities of children that have only been taught using CFE ...and from what is happening Early years I (and I am far from the only one) don't hold out much hope for those results improving in the future...
I could go on - but I am not seeing any evidence that the SNP are competent.
And it is the SNP who would sort out the split.... it isn't really 'not a vote for the SNP'. Even if they promised to hold a GE straight after a yes vote - I wouldn't trust they would deliver on that -they have form for saying one thing and doing something else...