Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

yes I agree trixy this is the central misunderstanding Sturgeon is hoping to exploit imo.

why do you see no hope Nyx that is not logical given that rUK is Scotland's largest backer by far, largest funder and the EU isn't going to replace any of that.

The UK has no idea of terms, costs, timescales for anything at this point either. And I don't trust the Conservative government to look after us. They look after their own.

well, the conservatives currently have no plan to end the barnett formula, so not just looking after their own (disclaimer: I've never voted for them either).

I am baffled by the naivete of those in Scotland who believe the rUK are good for us. Why do they want to keep us so, so badly?

Nyx - yes. Why do they?

Nyx, perhaps the rUK values the Union, and its shared interests, history, achievements, culture (I could go on all day). As do a lot of Scots. We all benefit from pooled resources and talent. It's not always about what you can get from something.

You describe the UK as some kind of malevolent captor that abuses Scotland and is always looking for a reason to harm us. I just don't recognise this at all. Have you lived elsewhere in the UK and had a bad time?

Nyx:
That is often asked question posed by nationalists, but it actually doesn't hold water. At the last indyref the UKG let the secessionists choose the question, the electorate and the timing. During the campaign Salmond and co got an easy ride from the UKG. Even now Sturgeon is treated with a lot more respect than her behaviour and size of support from the electorate warrants.

Divorces cost both sides.

YOucannot:
Nyx is just repeating the old nationalist arguments of grudge and grievance.

Austerity. Selling public services. Rich/poor gulf widening. Disabled people dying as money keeps being taken off them. Bedroom tax. More and more and more.

Spending on trident and palaces and HS2 etc.

Give me independence from all that please and we can try and sort out the mess afterwards

Nyx I see you deliberately ignored the question about the barnett formula - the only time you've mentioned that is to put it about that the tories will end that so it doesn't matter (when independence will surely end it).

Calyx the rich-poor gap is widening in Scotland under our dear leader Nicola - the poorest kids in Scotland are being failed by the SNP, not by the demon tories. You can't have independence from austerity, it will not bring Scotland economic freedom from world markets or save it from the effects of a recession in its main trading partner. It does none of those things.

*Austerity. Selling public services. Rich/poor gulf widening. Disabled people dying as money keeps being taken off them. Bedroom tax. More and more and more.

Spending on trident and palaces and HS2 etc.

Give me independence from all that please and we can try and sort out the mess afterwards*

And how will we sort all of this out with a very weak economy, no EU membership to prop us up, massive public debt and all the additional start up costs of establishing a state? How will we both attract business to grow a fragile economy, and raise enough from taxes to pay the bills (and our higher than average welfare costs)? These aren't just details that can be sorted out afterwards - they are absolutely central to the the case.

Austerity - the SNP are forcing that on Scotland. they are spending money on their pet projects yet education is failing miserably, NHS Scotland is failing miserably but SNP still pursue their own agenda. looks how many places have been removed from education by the SNP, all because they have removed funding.

selling public services - its exactly what the SNP are doing. look at the amount of health services now out to tender in Scotland. Look at the PFI initiatives put in by SNP for education and all the schools SNP have had built by the private sector - look at how much money this costs us.

Spending on palaces - how much did Scottish parliament cost? how far over budget did they go?

trident - how much does the locally economy benefit from the base being based where it is? if they moved from where they are the local economy would crumble.

the poorest kids in Scotland are being failed by the SNP

Indeed they are. The SNP's headline policies like council tax freezes and free tuition fees benefit the rich at the expense of the poor. Their own poverty advisor told them this. It's a scandal and hugely frustrating that they aren't challenged on this, and are allowed to present themselves as the party of the poor.

I am baffled by the naivete of those in Scotland who believe the rUK are good for us. Why do they want to keep us so, so badly?

What a ridiculous question. The UK has existed for centuries - who in their right mind would want to carve it up based upon the wishes of 1.6 Scottish separatists (the number who voted for an independent Scotland in the 2014 referendum). Talk about the tail wagging the dog! The fate of a 300 year old union decided by 3% of its population.

New flag, new geographical boundaries, moving key businesses and military facilities south, disruption going on for years and years - an absolute pain in the arse for every single UK citizen and institution, not least the Scots themselves.

It's not a case of wanting to 'hang on' to anything. Scotland is a constituent part of the UK, and a significant proportion of the people who live there, most likely the majority still, want to remain so.

As for the rest of the UK - I think you'll find most people are sick to death of the SNP and their obsession with independence, and if this discussion and others I have read elsewhere are anything to go by, that goes for many Scots too.

What question, NoLottery?

Unfortunately the nats don't really care about the economy, Sturgeon has recently said
“The case for full self-government ultimately transcends the issues of Brexit, of oil, of national wealth and balance sheets and of passing political fads and trends"
There you have it, they don't care about the effect of secession on ordainary Scots, so long as they get their indy dream. Sturgeon will remain a millionaire, everybody else will have to take their chances.

Nyx I hear a lot of broad sweeping statements on how Scotland has been screwed over by Westminster before and after IndyRef1.

I would have considered voting Yes in IndyRef1 if the SNP had said 'look at all these improvements and changes we've made with the current power we hold. Give us entire power and improvements can be made in all aspects of our country'.

But nope, never got any of that. Instead we got Jeremy Kyle style trashing talking and mudslinging, albeit from both sides, but IMO the onus was on SNP to prove they earned the right for entire control.

You're barking about being screwed over since the 2014 No vote, so my challenge is can you tell me what significant improvements the SNP have made to Scotland with their current power since 2014?

I bet, without the use of google, you don't know....because I don't know. I can't honestly think of any radical improvements they've brought. So you moan about Westminster, but SNP are equally (if not moreso) sh**e.

equally i am terrified of a Scotland tethered to England after Brexit.

Perhaps if Ms Sturgeon focused for 10-15 years on the economy, jobs, education and the NHS in Scotland and actually went out on a limb and ran the country - she would have more support and the confidence of the people that live in Scotland that she could actually run an independent country.

As it stands she can talk about one thing and quite frankly she is beginning to sound more and more like an obsessed harpie on the subject of independence - and I haven't heard her able to confirm actual guaranteed membership of the EU

www.commonspace.scot/articles/10552/top-oxford-economist-changes-mind-back-financial-benefits-scottish-independence

But no-one here will be changing their minds any time soon I guess

equally i am terrified of a Scotland tethered to England after Brexit

we have been tethered to them for 100s of years - why fear now?

Because Brexit changes things