Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

Handy that the SNP can distract from its disastrous record in government by dangling the independence carrot in front of their supporters.

Education is shocking, there are not enough teachers in secondary schools, the national qualifications are a joke, good University's are blamed for not taking Scottish students when the reality is the Scots kids can't compete with RUK and EU unless privately educated because SNP have fucked up their education massively.

CofE is a scandal and I don't want to hear it wasn't an SNP invention, they went with it and are responsible for the fucking shoddy and deplorable implementation that has let down a whole generation of Scots kids. But as soon as their supporters start to notice & begin to question - independence! Look at the shiny thing!

They are a bunch of unprincipled chancers who only want independence at any cost - whatever that means for Scotland and those who live here.

The problem is that if Scotland remain in the UK and Brexit is followed through, the situation will become an awful lot worse. The Tories will decimate Scotland. Funds will be taken out of Scotland and spent elsewhere.

Brexit may well make life a little harder for people, but to suggest that leaving the UK on top of that will be easier makes no sense. The surest way to make sure that funds are taken out of Scotland and spent elsewhere is to vote for Independence, because we'd then lose the Barnett formula money. That's without even considering that our (absurdly) massive deficit, start up costs, and high welfare costs will almost certainly mean heavy cuts and/or large tax rises to balance the books.

Brexiters pious cants, blaming Scotland for “divisiveness” and “uncertainty” make Donald Trump appear sane in comparison.

I think brexit resulted in appalling divisiveness and uncertainty.

I also think indyref resulted in appalling divisiveness and uncertainty.

In general, that's my opinion on referendums. It's not hypocrisy.

The only way Scotland can protect its interests is if Scotland is in charge.

In charge out of the EU and out of rUK.

The Barnett formula would obviously disappear but in its place we would have all of the money raised in Scotland to use as we see fit. Do you think Barnett is a lot more than Scotland raises on its own? Do you think that Westminster gives us free money out of the goodness of its heart? With our own revenues Holyrood could move away from the austerity model which has been proved to simply not work; they would inwardly invest to actively grow the economy. And as I said before, we would simply not be spending a large chunk of our funds on things that we do not agree with. We would spend a lot less on certain things and a lot more on other things. Nobody is saying it would be easy to start with. But for goodness' sake, it is not easy now. There is no hope for Scotland at all the way things are going. None. I see that a lot of people and indeed politicians in rUK believe they fund Scotland and they are angry about it. It is not going to get better here after Brexit. How could it possibly?

Brexiters pious cants, blaming Scotland for “divisiveness” and “uncertainty” make Donald Trump appear sane in comparison.

Let's not rewrite history and pretend that there wasn't huge division and still is due Indyref1 because there most certainly was.

Why do so many nationalists hold the fervent belief that England and Wales will need to pay for Scottish water? I have seen with my own eyes extensive rainfall and reservoirs across both Wales and England.

This nonsense always comes up. It's like there's a checklist sent out from HQ.

Over 103k now

Sturgeon can say Westminster doesn't speak for Scotland. She doesn't speak for whole of Scotland either.

Over 103k now smile

PigletWasPoohsFriend, vote early, vote often

PigletWasPoohsFriend, vote early, vote often

Or just as the YouGov poll people don't actually want it

"With our own revenues Holyrood could move away from the austerity model which has been proved to simply not work; they would inwardly invest to actively grow the economy. And as I said before, we would simply not be spending a large chunk of our funds on things that we do not agree with. We would spend a lot less on certain things and a lot more on other things. Nobody is saying it would be easy to start with. But for goodness' sake, it is not easy now. There is no hope for Scotland at all the way things are going. None. I see that a lot of people and indeed politicians in rUK believe they fund Scotland and they are angry about it. It is not going to get better here after Brexit. How could it possibly?"

Agree with Nyx

Bakewell, it's because Scotland has a lot more water than England. A quick google shows lots of stuff about England wanting to use Scottish water. Here's the first thing I clicked on, from 2014: www.scotsman.com/news/environment/14bn-plan-to-share-scots-water-with-england-1-3613430

Lovely quote from Boris at the end of that Scotsman article!

But Nyx they don't NEED your water.

Well that's fine then. But just shows Scotland has resources and good ones.

Note the initial plan is to start in the Pennines.

And tbh it ain't gonna happen without a few years of drought and vast amounts of government infrastructure funding which (sadly in my view) is anathema to modern government's.

A desalination plant off the Essex coast run by wave power is as likely a long term scenario. I don't have a link for that as i made it up from my head. [ wink ]

I'm not in Scotland but in the NE of England, so no vote. I don't want to see Scotland go, and I fear for the Scottish economy if you do vote for independence. This article shows that the whole referendum plan is unraveling faster than a ball of string and I hope NS will drop the whole idea that a referendum is a good idea.

Double blow for Nicola Sturgeon: 57pc of Scots say no to independence as First Minister

Nobody is saying it would be easy to start with

Not kidding. A report by someone (will try and link when not on phone) who is actually pro indy has said it will take at least 10 years for Scotland to get back to even today's economic levels.

Nyx, I think the question of how much Scotland contributes and how much it gets back is more complicated that you present it there, but I do think we'd be worse off without the Barnett overall. I don't pretend to understand the finer details, but I have noted that everyone, including the SNP, recognises that losing the additional Barnett formula money would be a disaster.

From what I understand, whether we are net contributors or beneficiaries varies year on year, and we are contributing a lot less in tax now that the oil price has crashed. And this speaks to a wider point - out economy is fragile and very vulnerable to external factors such as oil price. We don't have the economic diversity that the rUK has to be able to buffer these storms, and going it alone on the hope that our economy will make it seems extremely reckless to me. Not least because the SNP has had a decade to grow and diversify the economy and have failed to do so - this would surely become a much harder task without the safety net the UK provides.

We obviously have different opinions regarding Scotland's future, but I see considerable reason for hope within the UK once the Brexit storm has passed. The Scotland act gives us massive power to go our own way and grow our own economy/set spending priorities etc. as we see fit (as we have done since the Scottish parliament was created). All we need is a Scottish government with the desire and capability to do so.

Fwiw, I think a lot of the perceived anger towards Scotland is in response to the way our elected MPs behave - yesterday they were once again making clear that they couldn't give two hoots about the UK and were demanding to know what was being done for Scotland specifically. Our First Minister is more subtle about it, but she also does nothing but make demands and threats, and takes every opportunity to suggest that Scotland is just that bit different (with the subtext that we're just that bit better). It's amazing there isn't more anti-Scottish feeling frankly, but I think most people realise that they aren't representative of Scots as a whole.

I would, but that is probably just knee jerk reaction to NS continous attempts to rip the country apart. Having a separate parliment, just allows separatists to grandstand.
In normal times I would be very supportive of the scottish parliment, but I feel like scotland is ignored by them. The only people standing up for the scottish people at the moment is ironically the tories at Westminster! !! Pmsl...

I am only one person though.

At the moment it is highly likely they would tell you to piss off and would buy water from France.

Thegruffalowswife The majority of fair minded English folk don't blame ordinary Scots for the actions of the SNP

No they don't but we have to be realistic about whether they would be more inclined to buy stuff from scotland than they would from say ireland or france if they were not part of the uk.
There may not be any anti scottishness involved, they might just prefer to buy from somewhere else for whatever reason, practical, financial or political.

No they don't but we have to be realistic about whether they would be more inclined to buy stuff from scotland than they would from say ireland or france if they were not part of the uk.
There may not be any anti scottishness involved, they might just prefer to buy from somewhere else for whatever reason, practical, financial or political.

I agree this. Our trading relationship would inevitably be different, and there would almost certainly be higher costs involved from tariffs or whatever. If England can choose between Scottish water and Cumbrian water (for example), where one comes with red tape and is probably more expensive than the other, it's a no brainer. UK public services would naturally choose their own national providers over foreign ones, as this is politically more acceptable.

We shouldn't underestimate how nasty these referendums get either - both sides tend to ramp up the insults and derogatory language, and there was a lot of crap flung at the rUK last time. This time will probably be worse, and we're already seeing the 'we're different, we're not racist' (i.e. 'we're better') type of arguments coming into use. 18 months (at least) is a long time to foster bad feeling, and if Scotland did choose Independence it would quite naturally be taken as a huge two-fingers up to the rUK. It would be madness to suggest that English people would then choose Scottish strawberries (or whatever) when they can buy English ones.