Second referendum announced!

[Isadora2007]

😳

Will your vote change next time?

Nearly 93k

Many companies were making plans to leave the UK before the Brexit referendum was granted. A large number of financial services/big 4 jobs have moved to Poland without anyone raising a concern.

Then there's the added problem for Scotland that from April taxation for higher rate tax payers will be higher than rUK - not exactly attractive when trying to recruit.

Businesses has plans made for Brexit before the result was in. They won't halt those plans to see what might happen if scotland gains independence.

2 million signed a petition calling for a second EU referendum. Don't get your hopes up.

Education - yes that's all lovely but worst ever Pisa performance and widening attainment gap - Scottish education is clearly failing its poorest children already. The idea Scotland can protect itself from the economic consequences of Brexit through independence when its main trading partner will be so affected is wrong. At least the yes vote reps on the c4 news last night understood they need a better economic case - they didn't have one though. It's certainly not a wash to add in independence to Brexit, Scotland will lose funding from rUK and gain none from he EU.

96.5k now

user why choose Scotland, with its high personal taxes (and they'll get much higher) with its huge budget deficit over somewhere in continental Europe? Corporation tax breaks? Where does that money come from...

rUK will continue to trade with iScotland due to geography and common sense

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-nicola-sturgeon-scotland-indyref2-independence-europe-theresa-may-hypocrite-a7629686.html

Calyx If you believe that then you will believe anything France is hardly any distance from England and neither is Ireland and they are established now. Why in God's name would they choose here.

She is a petulant child- why should may not treat her like one.

98000 now

If Scotland are independent where will England get its electricity and water when theirs runs out? Also if Scotland is in Europe will rUK snub us in punishment, will they not be actively trying to get trade deals? You are forgetting that the rest of the UK do trade with Scotland as well as the other way round. Why would we want to shackle ourselves to May & her party's horrible policies and attitudes for years and years more? As for higher tax. It isn't a huge amount more. People who are against cuts to services don't have a problem paying a bit more, particularly when it is not the poorest being made to fork out more.

She is a petulant child- why should may not treat her like one

that sort of pompous statement only strengthens the SNP's message

Where are the figures about tax rises Nyx, starting with the current deficit and desired level of funding of Scottish services? I don't believe they will be small rises. I agree the arguments need to move away from ad hominem attacks on Sturgeon et al to the reasons we dislike the SNP - because they can't execute government and the economic case doesn't stack up.

You're forgetting also that all economies are inter-linked - say what you like, less economic activity in rUK will affect all of their trading partners' economic growth adversely.

I don't hear any yes voters taking about the vow

Well, on this thread we've had:
"Remember the farce of "the vow" and how that was regailed upon pretty much immediately."

and

"Icklewickle - are you seriously talking about empty promises as a no voter? Remember the "vow"? No one covered themselves in glory there."

Which is why I asked the question.

but since you ask, one of the first points was that the Scottish parliament to be permanent. The Scotland Act 2016 appeared to enact this - "The act recognises the Scottish Parliament and a Scottish Government as permanent among UK's constitutional arrangements, with a referendum required before either can be abolished". However, the Sewel convention has been shown to have no legal substance and can be disregarded, as in the Miller case in the Supreme court.

You seem to be accepting that the Scotland Act does indeed make the Scottish Parliament permanent, which would mean that the vow was in fact delivered. On this particular point we all seem to be in agreement.

I think the Sewell convention issue is part of a different argument - i.e. that the Scottish parliament has no legal authority in reserved matters such as the constitutional issues surrounding Brexit. After all, it was the courts who ruled on a point of law, and NS appeared to accept this ruling; this has little to do with Westminster or the government. Of course, the Scottish parliament has the final say in all devolved matters (Health, Welfare, Education, Policing, Housing, Income tax bands etc.), and the Westminster parliament has no power to overrule them on any of these things.

I actually understand the frustration that the Scottish government was ruled to have no legal authority to veto Brexit (although I think to do so would be democratically questionable), but this is not a case of Westminster abusing its status.

The whole point of indy is to secure a government that will provide much higher public spending ie not the austerity driven tories.

Taxes will have to rise significantly to fund this won't they? Thus causing a skills drain as professionals and business owners head south to lower taxes.

Yes Morris, add in that existing tax revenue will decrease with the twin macro shocks of rUK Brexit and independence and what does tax look like then?

And what about the current deficit and EU membership? If the SNP borrow in the short term to get over the 'short term' transition costs, how does that affect EU entry criteria?

I thought this was interesting this morning. Apparently support for Independence is at an all time high of 46% (which is pretty much the level it's been at for the last three years, so slightly misleading headline). What was interesting though was that support for the EU is falling; most Scots either want the UK to leave the EU or for the EU to have fewer powers, and Prof. Curtice warns that support for Independence could be at risk if the SNP insists on linking Independence to EU membership, which is what NS did a couple of days ago. I wonder how (or if) she'll respond to this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39265997

Incidently, the petition is about the break the 100,000 mark, and given that 95%+ of the respondents are from Scotland this gives it one of the highest concentrations of public support of any petition on the list. What's also striking is that every region of Scotland has very high support, showing that Scotland is speaking with one voice on this issue. I wonder where it has to get to before the BBC will actually report it?

"You seem to be accepting that the Scotland Act does indeed make the Scottish Parliament permanent, which would mean that the vow was in fact delivered. On this particular point we all seem to be in agreement."

Well, no, I don't believe the Scotland Act does that. I said it appeared to deliver that but in actual fact isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Scotland can be overruled at any time about anything if the supreme court choose to make it about a point of law. In fact I doubt Barnett will survive long after brexit if things go on the way they are. If we do not become independent I can see us being demoted to a region, which is what most unionists seem to want.

Yes!!! 100,000 let's hope scotland keeps signing to strengthen the message!

Re: Cheeseandcrackers77 at 19:07 yesterday
I am also interested in this point and have mentioned it on previous threads.
Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP conflated a vote for Brexit with another Scottish Independence referendum. This was going to skew the Scottish vote from the outset. I have seen posts on other websites from independence activists suggesting that following a successful (to them) second referendum, and Scotland becoming independent, Scotland could also stay out of the EU.

I am probably going to have to stay off boards/threads discussing the possibility of another referendum. The thought of going through this again makes me feel sick. The SNP have had years to show themselves capable of running the country, attracting investment and business etc. They have failed miserably, while blaming the Westminster Govt for EVERYTHING, citing that their hands are tied, even on devolved matters. Where the flying fuck to they think the extra money is going to come from on independence that will allow them to create this wonderful land of milk and honey?

The area I live in is dying on it's feet. We have a shiny new railway that is taking business away from the local area to our the capital - an unintended consequence - the railway was supposed to bring business the other way. The biggest local bus service has just announced it is pulling out of the area completely, largely to do with the fact that it can't compete with the shiny new railway - the train gets all the fare paying passengers while the bus is now used largely by those with travel passes.

Our main street is emptying fast. We have lost several cafes/restaurants since Christmas. The local council have just sold one of their bits of spare land to a group planning to put up a chain hotel which will ruin the other accommodation providers in the town, while paying the very few people it will employ NMW on zero hours contracts.

Our council tax bill has gone up by nearly £400 this year, but our roads are full of potholes, our police stations are usually closed, our libraries and swimming pools are reducing their hours.

If we could sell our house tomorrow and leave Scotland we would. But the property market here has been dead for the last 10 years, so if we could sell, it would probably be for less than we paid for the house. TBH, at the moment, I feel like just packing up and going anyway.

I hate this. The referendum ripped the country apart last time. The result was a fairly resounding defeat for independence, but here we are again. I am sick of it.

Scotland can be overruled at any time about anything if the supreme court choose to make it about a point of law. In fact I doubt Barnett will survive long after brexit if things go on the way they are. If we do not become independent I can see us being demoted to a region, which is what most unionists seem to want.

The Scottish Government, like the UK government, is bound by the law. So if Scotland attempts something unlawful, like the NP scheme, it will be prevented (just as the UK was prevented from triggering Article 50 without parliament's consent). This doesn't mean they can be overruled on anything, on a whim. In fact, the Scottish parliament has absolute power over most of the things that matter day to day in Scotland, and Westminster has no authority to overrule that (neither do the courts, unless their actions are illegal).

The law makes clear that the Scottish parliament cannot be abolished by Westminster, and can only be removed after a referendum of the Scottish people. I see very little appetite for that - who is advocating that the Scottish parliament be abolished?

Ringlingsisters

I can completely understand how you are feeling.

The problem is that if Scotland remain in the UK and Brexit is followed through, the situation will become an awful lot worse. The Tories will decimate Scotland. Funds will be taken out of Scotland and spent elsewhere.

The only way Scotland can protect its interests is if Scotland is in charge.