DH says I've turned him into a chauvinist.

[HowDoIMakeHimUnderstand]

Have namechanged...

DH and I have been together 2 years, married for 1 and we have an 8 month old DD.

When we met, he was a laid-back, tolerant liberal man. Very much a live and let live sort of person...especially when it came to gender roles and women.

However, since we married and had DD, he has really started to alter his perception on relationships, marriage, men/women and just about everything.

We have a traditional set-up. I am a SAHM, he goes out to work. He works full time and has his own business, so he works really really long hours. As a result, I do all the housework, cooking and the majority of child-care.

Recently, he has begun to make comments in regards to a 'woman's place being in the home', he doesn't like the 'feminisation of the work-place' and says that when he was younger he was led to believe that there was no such thing as a happy housewife so he gave up thinking he would ever meet one. Until I came along apparently...

I am a v. laid back sort of person. I don't mind picking up dirty socks and towels off the floor, I couldn't give a fig what he wears, how he does his hair and I don't give a crap about clothes/jewelry/shopping etc. I hate confrontation, so if something trivial is bothering me, I just let it slide. Because of our personalities, DH is very much the dominant one in our relationship.

This is just who I am naturally, it is not planned nor is it a conscious choice.

However, it seems that my laid-back, do all the housework and generally let him get on with his business/go out to pub/fix up his cars, attitude is bringing about a really unpleasant side in him.

He now spouts forth that all women should stay home full time to raise their children and that no man really wants to do housework and change nappies...and any man that does so is just pandering to 'his woman' because he has been mis-led by the feminist movement and the media into thinking that he has to act 'like a pussy' in order to keep a woman...

I've tried pointing out how wrong this attitude is...I've argued with him. All to no avail. He just smiles at me and says 'Well, I'm just glad you're not a career-woman type. I go out to work, you stay home...this is how it should be'. He even said our marital set-up has made him a chauvinist.

What should I do? We are fundamentally very happy with our marriage, he treats me really well, is always there for me if I need him and is a completely devoted father. But I'm v. worried about the impact this new 'thinking' could have on our DD as she gets older...

Have I made a rod for my own back here? Should I stop behaving like this? What can I do?

Advice really needed here...thanks if you got this far!

awww, kp, don't take it personally

although, in my opinion, you did deserve that response

the thing is, you can disagree on one thread...and be completely on the same page on another

OP has received some harsh responses for sure...but you will find that if people take it on the chin, don't get aggressive and defensive, there is a huge amount of support for women on here

I hope the Op realises that

Vesela and the young visitor you're still overreacting - my goodness.

DH says "is it OK if I play football tonight", and I say "Yes".

That's it. Obviously you never have such conversations in your homes.

Some brilliant posts WWIFN and TYV.

OP, what if you were to counter what he says with something equally silly about men. E.g. "All men should be engineers - it suits you so it must suit everyone". All women can't be "happy housewives" any more than all men could be "jolly engineers"

One thing I notice in what he says about men and women. It's all "women should" and "women ought to" and "women shouldn't", but when he's talking about men it's suddenly "men like" and "men really want". Do you see the fundamental unfairness difference here? See this from your OP for example: "He now spouts forth that all women should stay home full time to raise their children and that no man really wants to do housework and change nappies" Or here: "most men would dearly love to go back to the traditional set up but they've been browbeaten".

In his world, the fact that a man feels a certain way means that everyone should adjust themselves to suit him. Hence the didactic "should" language directed at women. He is the man, he has cast himself as a god-like figure who points his finger and gives the orders as to what should and shouldn't be happening. Man is the commander, woman is the lowly one who obeys to avoid the terrible spectre of a toddler man whose every wish is not being met.

For him the "fact" is that men want subservient "happy housewives", and that equality is making them feel hard done by. His solution to this is that women should put aside any ambitions and skills of their own, and conform to what men want. Men's desires trump women's needs - perhaps for an exciting career with lots of adrenalin and deadlines, or a progression to being the best in their line of work, or just for an independent income that they can contribute to the family pot. If men want it, women should just jump to and provide it. I'm sure you can see why this is a problem, especially as you think of yourself as a feminist.

OP... You seem to live a very happy life in general. I believe your husband is so surprised of his discovery, i.e. having a happy life with a SAHM, enjoying time at work with other males, etc. that he needs to share this with the rest of the world constantly and he also needs to say how wrong the rest of the world is.

It is common behaviour, like those who decide to go for homeschooling needing to prove why those who go to school are wrong. Or those who co-sleep and need to state how others more or less abandon their kids, etc. Sometimes I think this is part of our Christian culture, to proselytise . He probably needs to understand that the fact that he is very happy in his current situation, does not mean that he can extrapolate those rubbish stereotyping sexist beliefs as the ?truth?. I would be worried about my daughter and my son getting this kind of comments too. He needs a bit of growing up.

kitpuss - put like that - "is it OK if" - no, no problem, how else would you sort things out? It's when people say "I let my husband do X" and "I let my wife do Y" that I find a bit .

I think all the unpleasantness your Dh is spouting etc is a red herring for what really needs to be done.

I think you need to become more assertive about your life.

An assertiveness course might be an idea.

Or a new skills training?

Or a chat with Women's Aid may point you in the right direction as to how break out of the rut you are in yourself - they may have a recommendation of a course for you.

Please don't blame yourself for his rubbish - try to see it objectively : he is coming out with this old crap, not you, and you are not putting those words in his head - he is.

I also think he had all these ideas long before you came along.. I don't think there's anything to be done except change how you act yourself.

Good luck with it - remember your DD is watching you and learning from you and your DH - you want her to be a happily supported woman with a career if she chooses one? Well then you know what you have to do. Set a good example for her.

Regarding the making exceptions for you, as not being like other women. Can I point you in this direction? I am looking at the section entitles "But you're different to the others!".

When you insult someone because of their race/sex/sexuality..."They will be offended of course, and that's when you try to mollify them by reassuring them that they're ?different? to the others.
?Oh, you're not like all those other bitchy women? perhaps, or maybe: ?Yes, but you're an attractive fat man!?
Other suggestions include: ?Yes, but you're not like those other black people who won't better themselves, you're very educated!?.

Not only do you get to reinforce commonly held stereotypes about various Marginalised Groups? revealing that you truly believe them, you get to deliver a double-edged compliment to the Marginalised Person? involved. By using this tactic you're hoping to play on their emotions, connect with their usual experience of being Marginalised? for being ?other? and turn it around by now ?flattering? them for it and how they are differentiated from the ?others? because they're ?special? and (almost) worthy of a place in the ranks of the Privileged® (almost) because they are better at conforming to standards set by the Privileged®.

So deeply ingrained can many insulting preconceptions of their Marginalised Group? be that they may be torturously flattered ? we all like to feel the sun on our faces after all! And so, in this way, you also get to reinforce the internalised stigma they may carry."

I think this explains quite well how what he says to you is designed to make you all the more eager to conform to what he wants. I think it was TYV earlier who advised you not to forget that he is choosing to say those things to you. Why?

Re: your DD. Yesterday you said this: "I've asked him about this, he says he will support her no matter what, but I can't see how he can call other women 'harpees and bitches and butch lesbians' (I'm really sorry for repeating these words...they are disgusting in this context) for having a careers, being independent and making money but when it comes to DD he will be just fine if she decided to become a lawyer/business owner etc." Five hours later you wrote this: "elephantsandmiasmas he has assured me that DD will be free to make her own choices and he will support her and love her, no matter what. Whether she is straight or gay, goes to uni or not, works as a lawyer or a housewife and regardless of who or even if she marries...he has sworn this to me."

Can you see how you are trying to persuade yourself that everything is ok?

Howdoimakehim ...I havnt read all of the posts, but I've read enough on here to see that some of the replies are way too extreme.

Why are some people attacking the OP's way of life when she says she is perfectly happy and content living as a SAHM and housewife? What is wrong with this set up? Absolutely nothing, OP, and no, you are NOT a freak to be living in this set up. If your husband is supporting you and your DD which is allowing you to live the way you want, then the guy has to be given some kind of credit, surely.

The problem is NOT in the traditional set up, OP, its in your DH's changing attitude, which would worry anyone. You really do need to talk to him about this, and make him see how much it upsets you.

In answer to your question, I also have a traditional set-up, where I stay at home with DD (14 months), and DH goes to work. This is my choice. I sometimes do job searches and have a look at whats out there, but as I am a qualified teacher, getting paid work would be relatively easy. However, dont feel ready yet as DD isnt yet walking and I would rather she was abit more independent before going to nursery. DH always helps me in these searches and works out travel routes to and from supposed places of work. He is very encouraging of me working a "proper" job - sometimes abit too "positive" ("imagine, we'd be able to go on two holidays a year!")

As for the "list of expectations" - I dont actually have a written out list of things to do, but we both have high expectations from each other in terms of contribution to family life, and for us, this works very well. I expect there to be money for me to spend on whatever I want (within reason) and he expects me to run the home to a good standard. Whats wrong with that? Should I be sat on my arse in front of the telly while he works his balls off for me and DD? How would it feel if the roles were reversed; women were out there working to provide for the men and kids. Its only fair if both partners contribute in whatever way they can.

When I do get a job, we'll both have the same expectations in life, but they'll become more shared, but for the moment, this works, and if its a traditional set up, then Im not ashamed to say it is!

Finally OP, I do think people are getting abit carried away, and there is alot of husband bashing on MN, so if I was you I'd ignore alot of the rubbish. You are not being abused either! OP, there are lots of women on MN who ARE though, so tread carefully in regards to acting upon some replies. However, you really DO need to speak to your DH about his views and onstantly challenge them, so that they dont influence DD as shes growing up, or affect you in the long term. You will know what you can do to change his views, and I strongly advise you to do it, even if it means going into full time employment for the time being.

I'm very late to this thread but I have read through it

And though I don't necessarily have as much of an issue with the way the OP has chosen to arrange her domestic life, if she feels it is her choice, what worries me is her dh's attitude to her opinions and beliefs

By saying things like 'you haven't seen the things I have seen', and that you are not like these women he sees, what he is saying is that he is living in the real world, and he is keeping his wife in a happy bubble away from all the horrors etc and that she doesn't understand the world outside the home. That is his domain.

he says his aim in life is to keep you and dd happy but it also seems to be a little patronising - out there in the 'real world' there are harpies and terrible, terrible things which he believes you don't understand and he's rather too happy about that

it's a patronising and controlling view imo

the issue is that he has separated you in his head from the rest of the world and doesn't seem to think you have a real place in it

and by the way, why is he driving you places? You can get places by yourself, can't you?

Gosh Elephants, that Derailing for Dummies is brilliant. Definitely one of the scripts XH must have memorised. If only I'd read it a few years ago it would have been easier to laugh off his ghastly racist/misogynist/fatist/classist/ageist/younameitist comments, instead of getting riled to screaming point ("now you're getting angry, it's impossible to have a rational conversation with you").

Uncomfortably, I did recognise one technique I'm sure I've used myself in conversation, and suspect one or two more. Oh dear...

kitpuss - asking "is it ok" is not remotely the same thing.

If I ask my DH "is it ok if I meet friends for a drink tonight?" - I'm not asking his permission - I'm asking "is it convenient, does it clash with any plans of yours?"

Saying "I let my wife do this" to me implies permission. Perhaps you don't agree - that's fine. But please don't tell me I'm over-reacting. I'm explaining how I and many other people regard this word.

Hi All,

Well, obviously alot more has been said on this since I logged out last night. So thanks for everyone's input.

I decided last night after a bit of thinking to use this thread to try to hammer home my point to DH. I showed him the thread and asked him to read all the replies.

He was mortified that I had felt it necessary to elicit advice from random strangers and he said he genuinely hadn't realised I was so bothered by what he says.

He apologised and told me the offensive language would stop.

I repeated again my concerns about DD and I said that not only did I never want her to hear such language but that she must never be pressurised into choosing a particular way of life just because it works for us.

He agreed and again committed to supporting her, no matter what. So I am going to choose to believe he will do this.

All in all, he said that much of the offensive language he uses is said in a jokey way (as I said, he is never angry or aggressive) and whilst he does think overall that this culture is "over-feminised" and "the pendulum has swung too far the other way" he does not hate women.

So I think posting this question on here in the first place has turned out to be the solution. I'm satisfied that he gets it now and that all of that talk, jokey or not, will stop.

all the best, HowDoIMakeHimUnderstand, i'm sure he got a shock when he read this thread!

i hope this is a long-lasting wakeup call.

Hmm

Even if he doesn't say it (btw I think he will in time, then he'll do a jokey hand over mouth and say, 'oops, forgot I'm not supposed to do that') - this is the way of the 'I'm only joking! I don't really mean it!' types

doesn't it bother you that he still thinks it?

Well done OP (and well done Mr OP for reading).

I hope he keeps his word - and more importantly, that he rethinks some of the attitudes behind the hurtful comments.

At bottom, most of these "harpies" are women trying to make their way in the world, provide for their kids and make a better place for their children. It's sad that their gender apparently makes that a bad thing

ahundredtimes

It bothers me that he uses offensive language. He's entitled to his opinions, so whilst I don't necessarily agree that feminism has gone too far etc etc, I'm not going to presume to tell him he has no right to his views.

We can agree to disagree.

oh well done for showing him the thread - I hope he didn't see it as so many harpies screeching on in their men-hating way! I suppose if he didn't that says something positive in itself.

cherrybaby have you been readng the same thread? no one attacked the OP's way of life or said she was a freak! how bizarre. Lots of the replies are from women who are SHAMs themsleves!

You don't "necessarily agree" that feminism has gone too far, OP. Do you agree with it at all? Just a bit?

And you have decided to "agree to disagree". Would you feel the same about living with someone with racist beliefs? Would it be okay to agree to disagree then?

Shutting him up won't change what's in his mind, sadly.

HDIMHU - well done you, that was really brave!

Sounds like a good outcome for you both, I wish you all the best.

That's good, that he read it and took it in a reasonable manner, and has agreed to change his behaviour.

Did you try that thought experiment where you substitute the offensive things he says about women with the same kind of things about e.g. black people or Asians? For example: "A lot of white people secretly wish that they could still keep slaves, but the world's so PC now that not many people will say it." "Black people trying to make their way in professional careers are just a load of upstarts and n**rs, not like you, I love you because you've accepted your place as a housekeeper." "Society would be a much happier place if everyone who wasn't white stayed at home and did domestic tasks for no payment, that's what should happen."

Doesn't make for a pretty picture, does it?. Mr OP, if you're reading, please tell me what makes you so sure that women are inferior and fit only for domestic tasks?

Well, it sounds good as far as it goes, but seriusly, ask him to look at the Cabinet, at Parliament, at top CEOs, at the Royal Society, at the heads of Universities UK, at the professoriat, at most famous/best paid sports people, at the pay gap and tell you where, exactly, is this culture "over-feminised"?

Seriously, not seriusly!

Could you start doing something regular at the weekend or an evening - a sport or a hobby type thing? It might be good to take back some free time for yourself and make sure you are keeping your identity? You've only been in this situation for 2 years, I worry that in 20 years you might have lost sight of who you are IYKWIM...

It would also mean that one day a week, your DH had to think about your needs for a change, and organise his life to suit his family instead of assuming it will be the other way round.

(Oh, and I also think you should change your family newspaper from the Mail to the Independent )

"Well, it sounds good as far as it goes, but seriusly, ask him to look at the Cabinet, at Parliament, at top CEOs, at the Royal Society, at the heads of Universities UK, at the professoriat, at most famous/best paid sports people, at the pay gap and tell you where, exactly, is this culture "over-feminised"?

No. I'm not going to ask him. I wanted the offensive language to stop. I showed him this thread to make my point crystal clear. It worked. He apologised and has promised no more language. He has promised to support our DD no matter what.

I'm not aiming to make him think like I do. Why should I? Why isn't he entitled to his opinions, so long as he doesn't force them on anyone else?

And the racism analogy is insulting. Really insulting. You have no idea. I can only guess that you have inferred somewhere that we are ethnically white.

I suppose what you COULD say to your DD as/when she grows up is this:

"Your daddy and I have had (and hopefully) have a very happy marriage what with him providing financially and me pulling my weight as regards being your main carer/homemaker, however, do not feel that you have to go down this path, too. If you wish to have a career, you can and you can do anything a male can do in terms of jobs".

For Chrissake, do not listen to the harpies here who think your husband's behaviour is cause for divorce. It is NOT.

You are both happy, it is natural for a person who is happy to think THEIR way of life is the best if it's making THEM happy. If getting drunk, sleeping around and eating jelly babies all day made ME happy (doesn't btw) I'd probably advocate it, too.

Just say to hubby: "Look it works for US, but I want our DD to know there are alternatives for her should she choose to have a different lifestyle">