DH says I've turned him into a chauvinist.

[HowDoIMakeHimUnderstand]

Have namechanged...

DH and I have been together 2 years, married for 1 and we have an 8 month old DD.

When we met, he was a laid-back, tolerant liberal man. Very much a live and let live sort of person...especially when it came to gender roles and women.

However, since we married and had DD, he has really started to alter his perception on relationships, marriage, men/women and just about everything.

We have a traditional set-up. I am a SAHM, he goes out to work. He works full time and has his own business, so he works really really long hours. As a result, I do all the housework, cooking and the majority of child-care.

Recently, he has begun to make comments in regards to a 'woman's place being in the home', he doesn't like the 'feminisation of the work-place' and says that when he was younger he was led to believe that there was no such thing as a happy housewife so he gave up thinking he would ever meet one. Until I came along apparently...

I am a v. laid back sort of person. I don't mind picking up dirty socks and towels off the floor, I couldn't give a fig what he wears, how he does his hair and I don't give a crap about clothes/jewelry/shopping etc. I hate confrontation, so if something trivial is bothering me, I just let it slide. Because of our personalities, DH is very much the dominant one in our relationship.

This is just who I am naturally, it is not planned nor is it a conscious choice.

However, it seems that my laid-back, do all the housework and generally let him get on with his business/go out to pub/fix up his cars, attitude is bringing about a really unpleasant side in him.

He now spouts forth that all women should stay home full time to raise their children and that no man really wants to do housework and change nappies...and any man that does so is just pandering to 'his woman' because he has been mis-led by the feminist movement and the media into thinking that he has to act 'like a pussy' in order to keep a woman...

I've tried pointing out how wrong this attitude is...I've argued with him. All to no avail. He just smiles at me and says 'Well, I'm just glad you're not a career-woman type. I go out to work, you stay home...this is how it should be'. He even said our marital set-up has made him a chauvinist.

What should I do? We are fundamentally very happy with our marriage, he treats me really well, is always there for me if I need him and is a completely devoted father. But I'm v. worried about the impact this new 'thinking' could have on our DD as she gets older...

Have I made a rod for my own back here? Should I stop behaving like this? What can I do?

Advice really needed here...thanks if you got this far!

To Dollius: you are not going to change my view, and I'm not going to change yours. Your facetious question doesn't deserve a millisecond of my time to answer it.

There are too many internet warriors on here, trying to impose their values on other peoples' lives. These warriors seize on the minutest use of language with the voracity of a barrister or a political reporter, and turn the innocuous use of the word 'let' into a hugely significant issue for womankind.

I ask you all (rhetorically - don't waste your time posting an answer): would you be quite so strident if you met these people in real life? I seriously doubt it.

Mumsnet is in many instances a real help to lots of mums. But in threads such as this one, it can become a really unpleasant 'place' to be.

Kitpuss if you don't want your views challenged, why come onto a thread specifically ASKING about how to challenge sexist language?

TBH if someone in my toddler group said their husband "let" them do something, I would raise an eyebrow but I wouldn't say anything because it's not the time or place.

But if it came up in the context of a discussion about gender politics then yes, I absolutely WOULD raise it.

Equally, if you'd used the word in the context of an antenatal thread or a discussion on potty training I wouldn't have raised it there either.

But you chose to come onto a thread where people were talking about sexist language - you hardly have the right to be outraged when people point out the sexist assumptions inherent in your own language.

but 'let' isn't innocuous - that's the point.

Am amazed that you don't understand or realize the extent to which words have meaning and that words matter, and the power and the weight they carry.

If all words are innocuous and essentially meaningless and if words fail to carry any real meaning at all -

then, hey, I can say anything I like to you

because then I'll say, 'oh kitty, when I said you were talking a load of defensive, insubstantial nonsense that any grown-up should be ashamed to pretend is reasonable - I didn't mean that! God, why are you cross-examining my words? Relax, they didn't meant that at all. They meant something completely different'

Oh and in RL, yes I'd say 'let? He let's you go out in the evening?' and done staring boggle eyes at you

Here, Here, KITPUSS a very very valid point you have made.
This needed to be said.
As far as posting on mumsnet, I agree it can be a VERY unpleasant place to be , especially when you receive fowl language and name calling when you have merely asked, or said something in innocence. I have been very upset with the unpleasant remarks received when i have posted something in the past. We should support each other and give helpful advice not spiteful bitchy comments. WEll done MINIPIE !! If you feel anti something be diplomatic and humble about your response.
Kitpuss your marvellous aquisition of the the english language is great !
Sorry to side track. . .HOWDOIMAKEHIMunstnd I hope you get things sorted out. It was good you got hubby to read all the posts. . .Dont let him take advantage of your sweet nature. I have been there and its not nice to feel dominated all the time. Be assertive but tactfull and diplomatic.

Agree 100% with 100x

Besides which - "internet warriors"? Sheesh.

Do you mean, people who are invited to give advice and opinions on a subject, but whose opinion simply happens to disagree with yours?

If so, I guess I'm guilty as charged.

But theyoungvisiter. . . .Internet warriors dont give advice which some are, they fire harsh words, slanderous allegations and damming remarks.

yv

I was just thinking that Kitty is much closer to a political reporter actually than anyone else. Because someone says to her

'what do you mean let'?

And she says, 'BREAKING NEWS: internet warriors make the word 'let' an issue for the whole of womankind'

And we all look a bit bemused and say, 'we just wondered about 'let'

and she says: WORLD EXCLUSIVE: Woman force their opinions on others and answer rhetorical questions in an unpleasant and UNSUPPORTIVE way.

100x

maltesers - Kitpuss specifically referred to the people who had challenged her use of the word "let" as internet warriors.

That was me and 100x because we found it a weird choice of word.

If you can find ONE single example on this thread or any other where I have "fired harsh words, slanderous allegations and damming remarks" please tell me and I will happily apologise.

ALL I did was politely disagree with Kitpuss on a thread where opinions on sexist language were being actively sought.

Please tell me how that is unacceptable?

Oh crumbs...it seems my last post wasn't quite enough to kill this thread.

I didn't want to post anymore, but I genuinely feel bad that some people have spent alot of time responding to my query and in some cases, becoming quite concerned/annoyed about it. So I feel slightly beholden to respond to the remaining posts as I am the one who has started this whole thing and I don't want to see anyone else taking the flak for a discussion which I began.

dittany You said you thought I must have alot of 'self-directed misogyny'. Well, it is highly unlikely I will be able to persuade you that I don't and here is why. I grew up in a very strict Orthodox Christian background, where women are expected to stay home and men are expected to go get (and keep) a job to earn enough money to sustain the family. Roles are rigidly divided. Men are the leaders of the family, the providers and the protectors. Women are the 'keepers at home', they do the day to day child-care and the household chores. This set-up can and does work extremely well for alot of people. And since Orthodox Christians believe that this division of responsibility falls within some sort of divine plan, adherents to it are often keen to play their part to the best of their ability. What I mean is the men work hard for their women, the women work hard for their men.

Comments like that of my husband about all women staying at home and the horrible name-calling that ensued come as a result of him thinking that some people in society are abdicating their responsibility to the detriment of their families. This does extend to men as well since he believes men should be providers for their families and men that don't are shirking their responsibility.

My abhorence of his comments was not that he believed that a traditional set up is beneficial to the majority of people, but that he seemed to be implying that it should either be imposed upon people (which it should absolutely not) or that those people who freely choose not to live like this are somehow lesser, set apart or sinful (again, a notion I entirely reject).

As I said, I believe and stand up for the right of all people, regardless of gender, to choose how to live their lives. And my husband does too believe it or not. His pronouncements on women who have careers and are financially independent did a woeful dis-service to the Orthodox Christian culture preaches about marriage, men and women.

And in essence what it preaches is this:

Women should submit to their husbands practical and spiritual authority.

Women should respect and love their husbands and children.

BUT crucially, in return...

Men must love their wives to the extent that they put their needs first and ultimately men must be prepared to "lay down their life for her".

Men must protect and provide for their families and raise their children to be good people.

It is a two-way thing.

This in no way justifies or 'makes ok' what my husband said...terms like b*tch, harpie etc and the sweeping statements that all men want a happy housewife and all women should stay at home are unacceptable. Full stop. He should know better. And he does. He thought he was being funny...he thought that our set-up somehow made it ok to say those things. But he's been told, by me, that no way will I tolerate that.

However, the system of belief which informs our life together is predicated on the strict division of responsibility within the home and work-place...that is un-deniable. But it is not misogynistic in essence and nowhere within that system of belief is a man given licence to abuse, belittle, hurt, attack or degrade his wife or children.

I am not a misogynist. I believe that for me, it is probably best and happiest for my family that my husband be the dominant character. But I do not believe others should follow that unless they expressly choose to do so.

Gosh...I really hope some of this makes sense...

Yes, it makes perfect sense - and was a very coherent, well thought-out post.

All I hope, and I understand what you've said, is that you now see how vulnerable that system of beliefs is because it so entirely depends upon commonly-shared goals and respect for your roles within a v. strict framework of understanding.

And your dh's singular interpretation of that system - quickly arrived at it seems - really does show how dangerously shaky it is to submit to another's authority within this belief system - and in so doing surrender your own authority - because what if he misuses and misunderstands that authority? What then?

Which is exactly what happened.

The belief system collapsed - very quickly really - because it was misunderstood and the power given to him by you was misused.

Which is bad luck, but probably inevitable given how people don't really conform to 'roles' because people are more than 'roles' as a rule, however hard they may try to conform to them.

Oh, let me also just add that I don't need to force or coerce myself into some sort of submissive role. My personality is naturally laid-back...I don't sweat the small stuff. This is a big part of the reason why I have ended up in conducting my marriage like this.

Were I a more dominant character, I would not force myself into a way of being that did not suit the person I fundamentally am.

My sister grew up in a similarly strict background but she is very out-spoken and dominant and she likes things done her way alot of the time. Needless to say she conducts her relationship entirely differently.

Thank you for taking to trouble to clarify, OP. As you appreciate, many of us feel deep mistrust of fundamentalist views for the very good reason that they are easy to abuse. Where moral principles invest all the economic power in one person, that person is in a great position to adopt a dictatorial stance and justify their abuse in terms of 'duty'.

An orthodox household (christian, muslim or jewish) should create a contented family, as long as the entire principle is observed. Sadly often, it isn't. The fact that your H tried bending the rules is a matter of concern, imo. I'm pleased to hear you caught & stopped him.

Perhaps a refresher on family values might be in order, next time you meet with your minister?

grace I agree, some of the values I grew up with are very easily abused. That's why I was so horrified to hear my tolerant, 'live and let live' husband saying some of those things...despite how we live we've always agreed that other people are just as valid in living how they choose.

I didn't want our set-up to cause him to change his tolerance for others...I was worried that by following that 'biblical marriage' pattern I was creating some kind of monster.

But I do think I nipped it in the bud though. I didn't let his 'jokes' and comments slide. I tackled them head on, as soon as they started and I think I made myself understood.

I guess it's good that you've been honest and brave in seeing where the vulnerabilities are re your set-up - and the areas where your dh might again 'misunderstand' the choices you've made about your life, and also the get-out clauses you allow yourself re being a 'laid back person' but don't want to have for your daughter.

I'd be surprised if you can have it both ways though tbh - it's a very bendy tightrope of understand you're walking, and he'll have his own thoughts and opinions quite independent from the ones you'd prefer him to have to make this belief system work how you need it to. Need it to for your own dignity I suppose. I think this'll rear it's head in other ways over time.

Good luck

No it is not.

It is not misogynistic to believe that men and women are of equal value but that their roles are different.

You assume that submission must mean that a woman is lesser than. Not so when a woman submits out of choice and free from coercion and pressure.

Living "in subjection" to a man does not mean a woman becomes less equal than her husband. It certainly does not mean she is hated, by her husband, her family or her community.

And I can, do and will continue to call myself a feminist. I understand this is uncomfortable for you and that you wish to exclude me from feminist dialogue because of how I live my life, but I still maintain that all women everywhere have the right and deserve the freedom to live as they choose and to be seen as the equal of any man.

I am a feminist.

definition of submission

"Acceptance with fear...."

My choice may not be a feminist but I am a feminist.

My daughter will be taught to follow her conscience, her heart and to live as she thinks is best for her, safe in the knowledge that I and her father love and support her fully.

How can you be a feminist? Feminism is about ensuring that women have the same choices as men. ALL the same choices. (Barring physical differences like childbirth).

If you believe that men and women have different roles, then you are saying that there are some things men can do that women cannot, and vice versa. That's not a feminist belief.

For example, what if there was a woman who wanted a submissive husband, and a man who wanted to be submissive? Would your views support that?