MN regular with urgent questions on what's "normal" in your relationship, because dh and I wildly disagree

[getsonmynerves]

He is 43 but has the sexuality of a 14 year old. He is fond of making innuendos and spends all day trying to feel me up in some way/ trying to french-kiss me/ trying to dry-hump me, as soon as we are alone. It gets on my nerves soooooooooooo much and I feel like I'm constantly fending him off. In his defence though I must admit that my sex drive has been non-existent for the last five years and we hardly ever do it (less than once a month). I say his behaviour is not normal and I do regularly get cross and then he stops for a while but as soon as we start getting on better he reverts back to his old ways. He says my behaviour is not normal and that most women would love the attention and would for example jump at the chance of a five minute fondle on the bed while the kids are busy elsewhere. So who is right?

He always wants to have sex in the morning and I absolutely don't like to do it in the morning, but in the evening, when I'd be more willing, he's not fussed.

So shes willing in the evenings, but hes not arsed. Im not sure how that fits in with him being frustrated ?

Yes dignified but I think that's because he doesn't want long, pleasurable romantic sex any longer - I think he may have detached emotionally and now sees sex as an orgasm release, not an act of imtimacy or of expressing love. So "spoons in the morning" when he doesn't have to connect with the OP (or even look at her) possibly suits him just fine.

You might be right Whenwill,( is probably what happened to us too ) but if this is so, its not surprising she doesnt want sex. Obviously theres much more to it , but i sympathise with the op, its a horrible way to be treated whatevers causing it.

Not being up for sex does not justify this kind of aggressive sexual behaviour.

I fully agree that in a loving relationship you have a responsibility to your partner to show them love, affection and desire. I find the idea that you owe them sexual satisfaction troubling - nobody can ever be fully responsible for somebody else's feelings, sexual or otherwise.

I feel I should try to make my husband happy. That doesn't mean his happiness is my responsibility and any unhappiness is my fault.

But there can be no affection, love or desire where there is an absence of respect and the behaviour described is extremely disrespectful.

hmmmm i can see both sides, the thing is though, his way of seduction isn't working so why does he keep doing it? To get his 'own back' because he feels resentment at the lack of sex? Both parties here need to get to counselling I think. If the end game is for both to be happy then both need to change and address this.

I had an ex like this, totally turned me off it was like having a a 14 year old public schoolboy (stereotype) trying to sleep with me, yuck. Not manly or sexy at all, really hideously gropey and childish, yuck. It got to the stage where I didn't even want to kiss because then he'd be pawing at my chest. Obviously he's an ex. From his point of view he 'had to' keep doing this because I kept saying no so he had to 'up his odds'.

Sorry but if he doesn't want loving sex but just to use his wife as a fuck toy I really think it is a bit much to be laying the blame for that kind of misogynistic, abusive attitude at his wife's door.

I agree dignit to me this sounds like it is about domination, not sex. I mean dry humping? That's what dogs do to show who's top.

You're right skidoodly, but you may have misunderstood me. I don't think this is cause and effect. I don't think the OP is to blame for this at all, just as he isn't to blame for being rejected. I don't think blame helps if you're trying to restore a relationship. I suspect that's what it has become though; a blaming relationship. The tone of the OP is after all, "who is right?". Answer; "no-one. There are hurtful behaviours on both sides."

If there is anything to be learned here it is that blaming doesn't really get anyone anywhere, whereas an overdue honest conversation might. Suspect however that this script is so entrenched, only a very observant counsellor might unravel it.

Well said Skidoodly , i agree with your comment about sexually agressive behaviour, because it IS agressive. When you force sexual contact ( or physical contact ) onto someone who doesnt want it is an act of agression no matter what its dressed up as.

I think some men do it simply because they feel entitled to . I,ll say again that i find it worrying that no one would be expected to put up with it from a colleague , but within a marriage it apears to be acceptable, and better still a whole range of excuses and explanations are found, ranging from hes too stupid to hes just frustrated. Its wrong.

Very very worrying.

Kerry , im not sure what point your trying to make. Its really not the same thing is it.

Hmm, I used to find this irritating, and I asked him to stop, but thought differently about it when (DH) he replied "but you're irresistible!"

Now I don't mind at all. We have 4 kids so time to ourselves is precious. The occasional grope when doing the dishes is fine with me. I started to look at it a different way. I need to feel desired by him, he needs to show me that he desires me and vice versa.

I agree that the behaviour described in the OP appears to be symptomatic of a wider problem with the relationship.

From personal experience once a month is nowhere near enough for us. There have been slightly barren spells, but it has always coincided with a bad patch in our relationship.
It's a vicious circle really, you argue/fight and don't have sex. Then there's frustration at the lack of intimacy, which leads to more fighting and results in emotional withdrawal.....

It's a hard cycle to break imho.

Could sex counselling be an option?

Kerry - I love having sex with my husband. Does that mean that another woman who doesn't want sex with hers shouldn't complain if he forces her?

Whenwill - "hurtful behaviours on both sides" suggests an equivalence between aggressive sexual harassment (or what would be called sexual assault if done to a stranger) and low libido that I do not accept.

He is very wrong here. There is no excuse for his treatment of the op.

Why shouldnt there be blame ? He is engaging in behaviour that would have him arrested if he did it to anyone else.

when you marry someone there is generally a level of intimacy within the relationship that is not present in strangers/workmates.

Sexual contact between persons in a relationship is acceptable (provided both enjoy) but between strangers should be classed as inappropriate/assault.

I really do think some form of counselling is the only option if you cannot resolve these differences between you.

Kerry, that is completely different. A nice warm hug with a bit of a rub up against you to say "Hello gorgeous, look what I've got here" is sexy, it's very different to when you are trying to sleep someone coming up behind you and poking you with their erection, or when you are bent over trying to fill the dishwasher and they come up, grab your hips and start humping at you, thinking it's hilarious and going to turn you on. It's not remotely arousing, it made me want to turn around and elbow him sharply.

I bet the reaction to rejection would be different too - if you turned around and just returned the hug saying something like "Sorry love, I've had a really hard day at work, I'm not really in the mood" he'd probably feel disappointed but still hug you, then maybe ask what was wrong or just go off and do something else. Whereas the humper would persist even if you said "No thanks" very politely, then get offended, go off in a huff and refuse to hug, kiss or even be close to you, leaving you feeling even less inclined to feel amorous towards them.

Admittedly it's a vicious circle, so I think that the best thing if both halves of the couple are willing, is to address it in relationship or sex counselling, if not then I really think it can be a dealbreaker. I don't think this is something that can be dealt with just by talking it over between yourselves, there is too much emotion attached.

Sorky, so all one night stands are sexual assault? I don't agree. I think sex should always be consensual and enjoyed by both parties and anything less is sexual assault, whether it's within the boundaries of a "relationship" or between strangers.

Look, it is evident that this aggressive sexual behaviour needs to stop. If it is unwanted and unreciprocated and makes the OP feel uncomfortable, so he should stop doing it. I am not excusing it at all - I think the OP's H is behaving like a crass oaf actually.

But "low libido" is in my view, a euphemism. Constant rejection, lack of intimacy and compromise about a partner's needs and feelings is damaging to a relationship. It affects both sexes and there are sadly lots of women on these boards who talk about how the lack of sex and intimacy from their Hs is affecting their self-esteem. Men are no different.

She's blaming him, he's blaming her. Both behaviours (and I bet there are all sorts of others) need to change here and in the case of the sexually aggressive behaviour, stop completely. But him stopping this isn't, I'd suggest, going to restore this to a happy marriage - and neither is getting into a "blame" cycle.

I think the line of thought everyone was going with Bertiebotts was if the DH of the OP did this to someone randomly, at work, or on the Tube for example, then it isn't acceptable, which I was merely agreeing with.

I, nor anyone else to my knowledge, has mentioned one night stands, which it goes without saying should be consensual.

Am getting a bit scarednow. DP and I have a nearly 5 month old (plus a 5 year old) and have had sex once since she was born. Going by some of the comments on here he must be so frustrated he's practically raping prostitutes by now isn't he?? I thought ebb and flow was normal due to circumstances...

No, fair enough, but you said "Sexual contact between persons in a relationship is acceptable (provided both enjoy) but between strangers should be classed as inappropriate/assault."

And what I was saying is that I don't think sexual contact between strangers should have different boundaries to sexual contact between partners in a relationship, aside from obviously that you can reasonably assume that if you are with someone, they find you attractive. Why would you afford your husband/wife less respect than you'd show to anybody who you fancied?

"Constant rejection, lack of intimacy and compromise about a partner's needs and feelings is damaging to a relationship. It affects both sexes and there are sadly lots of women on these boards who talk about how the lack of sex and intimacy from their Hs is affecting their self-esteem. Men are no different."

That's fine. I totally agree with that.

But I'm calling bullshit on the "blame cycle".

There is blame here, squarely at this door, and it needs to be addressed before they can have any kind of constructive conversation about sex.

Why should anyone contemplate a sexual relationship with someone who is sexually harassing them on a daily basis?

What on earth makes him think it is OK to treat another human being in this way?

I also think it's a bit ridiculous to be going on about how rejected he feels when he is only prepared to have sex at certain times of the day.

If he had an affair would you still be saying that there was no blame attaching to him and that they should each look only at their own behaviour?

It is difficult. He feels rejected and hurt. She feels put upon and pressured.

No doubt his acting in this way even though he knows she dislikes it is part of expressing his aggression towards her for what feels like her rejection of his love. Women make the mistake of thinking that sex is just about the slaking of a mere appetite for men. It isn't, and a man who is constantly rejected sexually usually feels very hurt.

That being said, it doesn't excuse it. He ought to have the maturity to sit down and talk about how it makes him feel, then he woudln't have to act out in this juvenile way. I bet that if he was able to sit down and tell the OP that he loved her and he felt very emotionally hurt by her lack of interest in sex with him, he would feel much better. No doubt the OP would desire him more too and understand much better.

As women, can I ask, how do you know if you want sex or not? How do you know whether to say you aren't interested when your DH comes on to you? For me, about 20% of the time I am totally not interested. Another 10% of the time, I feel very interested, enough to initiate it myself or send out very clear come on signals.

But the rest of the time, ie the majority, it falls in between the two. So when DH makes a move, I am not actively interested, but usually I get interested after a few of DHs moves and generally warming up a bit. But had DH asked me right at the beginning, I would have said I was not interested.

I do think that you sometimes have to go with the flow a bit and you will find actually it was very welcome and you are glad your DH made the moves and made it happen!

Of course you have to feel confident that your DH will respect you if it turns out that you want to say "No" after all.

Does this ring a bell with people?

Yes Bumps, that is what I would describe as a normal sexual relationship - not many people after the initial flush of a relationship are up for it all the time. It seems like the OP's husband is skipping ahead though - instead of coming on subtly and warming her up to the idea he is going straight for the "See what you want and grab with both hands" approach.

OP, is this relatively new behaviour, or has he always done this to you since the start of the relationship?