Sex before marriage

[toonosy]

This is really nosy...but was wondering if anyone actually waits until they are married before having sex these days?

Me and DH waited, we were together almost 6 years before we married. Our decision was for religious reasons, however I can't bring myself to ask my RL friends their opinions on this!

Would love to hear what everyone thinks, was going to put this in Religion but thought I'd get more responses here.

There is a wealth of evidence that in our society there are risks associated with the physiological and psychological wellbeing of teenage mothers. Furthermore, babies born to teenage mothers have a higher rate of infant mortality and morbidity than babies born to older mothers.

You might not like the fact that we are living in a patriarchal society but teenagers are not mentally or emotionally equipped to deal with pregnancy within its strictures without enormous support.

Your statement that women are better having children between the ages of 14-18 is bunkum

Excellent.

Babies born to teenage mothers have a higher rate of both mortality AND morbidity. What is the difference?

No I don't like the fact that we live in a patriachal society.

Teenagers can deal with a lot more than you give them credit for.

Why is it bunkum? Is it so they can fit into a world dominated by men? Should we just accept this? Why is it harder for women to get pregnant over the age of what shall we say 35/40/45?

I don't have a strong opinion over sex before marriage. I just think this is a way that girls are judged when boys are not and why should we encourage that.

Human nature is pretty much human nuture, being sexually attracted doesn't make you less worthwhile/feminine/whatever.

Mortality means death. Morbidity means disease or inclination have disease. So children born to teenage mothers are likely to be less well.

I don't like the patriarchal society we live in one bit but it's absurd to state that it's better to have babies when you're a teenager when all the evidence is stacked up against that. Early 20s, fair enough. But 14-18 is just idiotic frankly. And unless you give me some decent evidence-based research to back up that statement, I'm going to continue to think you're barking.

Is that (the m&m) due to physiological differences in girls, that they can grow out of, or other socio-economic factors?

No evidence, no preference either, I've got dds myself. Call me barking but if my dds have proper boyfriends before they get married I won't be saying oh what did I do wrong. Likewise if they become parents, I will just do what I can to help them.

Don't you remember being a teenager?

Did you read my post? The morbidity/mortality relates to the children not the mothers. To be clear, children born to teenage mothers are more likely to die or have serious illnesses.

Their mothers are more likely to suffer psychological and emotional trauma than older mothers, in part because of the vast number of changes a teenager is going through and also because of the social stigma/lack of support available to younger mothers. You may not think that mental health issues are a long term problem, I do. As do every single health charity dealing with women - across the world.

? 85 per cent of teenage pregnancies worldwide are unplanned.
? Pregnancy is a leading cause of death for young women aged 15 to 19 worldwide, with complications of childbirth and unsafe abortion being the major factors.
? For both physiological and social reasons, girls aged 15 to 19 are twice as likely to die in childbirth as those in their twenties. Girls under age 15 are five times as likely to die as those in their twenties.

FFS. No I don't want my teenage children becoming parents. If they do, I'll deal with it but it's really not ideal. And yes I do remember being that age. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 18 and I never had unprotected sex because I was educated

Allsweetness: I don't know if the rates of teenage pregnancy are higher or lower now than in the 1920s. And I rather doubt that you know, either - given the fact that general record-keeping, particularly among the poor, was a lot less accurate or indeed widespread then than now. Newborns were abandoned, passed off as being born to someone else within the family, etc, secrets were kept.
LadyBiscuit, it was my understanding that around 16-20 is the biologial/physical optimum age to have babies. But having sex is not just about having babies anyway.

SGB - I don't see much point in talking about optimal biological age for conception, given all the facts in my posts. There are no societies where it is best for the mother and her children to have babies at that age - whether those reasons are social, psychological or biological is really neither here or there in my opinion.

But in any case, all the evidence I've read points to the 'optimum physiological age' as 18-25. As I said to GAG - if you can find any research to support it being younger than that, I'd be interested to read it.

This thread seems to have moved on from sex before marriage for adults to sex before leaving home for teens and teenage pregnancies!

I very much agree with 2rebecca- if kids are old enough to behaving sex ( and I don't actually regard 16-17 yr olds as being emotionally mature adults, no matter what the "law" says about being an adult at 18) then they should be doing so under their own roof.
I don't know if any of you who advocate children's sex under your own roofs ( except Mal) are in that situation yet ) but I would just not be comfortable with it.

In the same way that I wouldn't flaunt my sex life under their noses, ( and unless you live in a huge house most homes have thin walls) I wouldn't want to know so much about what they were up to, and literally hear them having sex. I also wouldn't want to meet their latest boyfrien/girlfriend on the landing after "night before".

I can only think that some of the attitudes hear might change when the time comes. The Relationships thread is often full of parents saying their sex lives took a tumble once their kids were teenagers- due to privacy. How can so many of you feel comfortable with having your child flaunt their sexuality?

I think my attitude is- if my kids feel old enough to have a sexual relationship then they can conduct that in their own space. Add to that the fact that I would - and have- discouraged intense relationships at 16/17/18, then I can't see any place for sex in the family home.

Re. teenage pregnancy- well, you write a thesis on that!

I do not believe, as SGB does, that it is down to education, or sex education. Where I live I could show you 3 teenage girls who had become pregnant. They all went to the same schools as those who have gone on to be high achievers and independent women with prestigious careers- medicine, law, vets etc etc. They all had the same type of sex education.

The difference is that the girls who became teenage mums came from homes where the welfare state provided for them, they did not really engage in education, and saw their future purely in terms of having a child to fill a gap and give meaning to their lives. They chose to ignore their lessons on contraception . In one instance, the rumour is that the mother's boyfriend impregnated them. Total irresponsibility all round.

The difference between the 21st century and the 1920 s is that now there is no shame attached to this. The state provides and you don't have to give your baby away or - going back even further- go into a workhouse!

I'm finding this thread confusing with all the deleted posts!

Why do some of you with older DCs want to pretend you're not having sex with your partner? I have never understood this discomfort with teenagers knowing that their parents are having sex. We would much rather our teenage DCs grew up having a full expectation that when they have also been married as long as we have, they will be having sex too.

When the time comes, we will also welcome BFs and GFs to stay overnight. Just because we can't see it or hear it, doesn't mean it's not happening, surely? If people want to have sex, they will find a way. For teenagers with no means of funding hotel rooms, that usually means the family home, whether their parents approve of it or not. If it's the latter, they will usually do it when the parents are going to be out of the house.

If that's not possible, the alternative is a cramped vehicle or al fresco. Having to sneak around encourages a thought process that sex is an illicit pleasure and something to hide and I just don't understand why people are so puritanical about it.

Some of my friends' parents took the view that all this discouragement would mean that sex wouldn't be on the agenda till university - and they were more or less right. However, when those friends were let off the leash at university, some of them became unhappily promiscuous. In later years, they've told me that because their parents always put such a premium on sex as sacred and to be "saved", they confused it with love and spent their university years as miserable as hell, when they should have been having the time of their lives.

I think because my parents were broader minded than most - and encouraged an adult dialogue, I never felt the need to sneak around and consequently enjoyed my teenage years and university afterwards. I've also never had any hang-ups about sex either. I was also very mindful that my mum married young because in those days, it was the only means of having legitimate sex. The marriage was a disaster.

It is far better IMO to educate DCs about treating sexual partners with kindness, fairness and decency, making sure that there are absolutely no double standards within the sexes. That involves taking full responsibility for contraception. If they are having sex, it's not regarded as something that should be hidden, rushed and uncomfortable! If they are sleeping in the family home overnight, that responsibility extends to other areas too - making and changing the beds, not leaving used condoms lying around, being discreet if anything causes discomfort - the actions of any responsible adult in fact.

I think all of this will prevent our DCs wanting to rush into a live-in relationship, marriage and DCs too early.

whenwillIfeel..
All I can say is wait until you in that situation!

A lot of people posting here are posting about theoretical behaviour - parents whose children are not yet at the stage to have sexual partners.

I think there is a lot of head-in-sand or lack of real understanding about sex and boundaries.

We are actually programmed NOT to think of our parents in a sexual way for very deep seated biological and psychological reasons connected with potential incest.

I am frankly amazed at how you can say that parents should not hide ther sexuality- do you suggest that my DH and I who have been married for 26 years suddenly slope off to the bedrooom- as we might want to- mid afternoon and just tell our 23 yr old son who is living with us again that we are"going for a quick shag"? The allow him to hear our screams and moans of ecstacy?

We are actually finding it very hard to maintain a sex life with an adult "child" at home, and I am certainly inhibited if I think he will overhear.

If you ask any child whether they can imagine their parents having sex, they will almost always shudder and say no! Part of thi sis because they cannot imagine anyone over 40 possibly wanting or being able to have sex- but a big part of it is because we are their parents!

And for the same reasons that I don't want them to overhear our sexual antics, neither do I want to hear theirs!

Some things are best kept private , even within the context of the family.

PP, I fervently disagree. It's not as theoretical a view as you suggest either. Our older siblings do have DCs who are having sexual relationships and the ones who share our views have produced emotionally intelligent adults with healthy views on sex and relationships.

I also had no problem whatsoever knowing that my parents had (and still have) sex.

In your situation, I would have no difficulty sitting down with a 23 year old and explaining the discomfort that you obviously have. I would explain that just as he needs space and privacy, so do you. But it depends on how open a dialogue you have both had with him thus far about sex and relationships.

I don't think acknowledging that one's parents have sex leads to thoughts of incest or abuse. And I don't want our DCs to grow up thinking that the over forties don't have sex either. I didn't have that view, why would I want our DCs to have a distorted reality?

No I didn't wait and I'm bloody glad I didn't wait either.

We don't find it difficult to keep a sex life going when DD is back at home, which she will be next week until September - what an odd way of thinking, no wonder some people are so squeamish about sex.

We neither flaunt nor hide our sexuality,it's a natural part of us, we wouldn't slope off to bed in the afternoon if she was in the house any more than we would if FIL was visiting, but if she was to hear us having sex at night in our room with our door shut then she could turn her tv up!
As we could if we ever heard her, which we never have.

She knows we have a sex life, and apart from the normal "cringe factor" or "God, mother , why are you looking at my Anne summers catalogue" , is aware that having a sex life is normal and healthy.

I like to think we've given DD a very healthy attitude to sex and sexuality - that sex is fun ( and comes with responsibilties) and that respect is paramount, both for yourself and your partner.

The one girl she lived with ( out of 4 girls and 2 boys) with a strict upbringing went wild on being let loose, she ended up on drugs and pregnant - being overprotected by her parents has ruined her life, DD and all the others could see it coming yet the poor girl was so overawed by being set free that the outcome was obvious.

whenwill- okay- so suggest a dialogue for me and many other parents who wish to maintain a discreet sex life with adult "children" at home. Just what exactly are you advocating I say to him?

I think the mistake you are making in your post is that it's all about you and your siblings- and you are ignoring the other 99% of the population who might think otherwise.

I don't like the implication that my DCs are not well adjusted emotionally- or that I have failed in some way. Both of my kids have got excellent degrees from top 10 unis, are happy and have good relationships with people of both sexes.

Given that neither you nor I, PP, know 99% of the population and their views, I can only tell you what we, and people far beyond our extended family believe - and have found helpful with this issue.

But I'll have a think about a suggested dialogue, and get back to you, if that's what you really want?

Yes, it is what I want- becaue other than saying to him turn up your music, or make yourself scarce twice a week or whatever, I cannot see what on earth you are meaning!
Obviously we make the most of the times when he is not here and have "early nights" if he goes out- or is asleep in the mornings at weekends.
But as for saying "We want to have sex so make yourself scarce-" what exactly doyou mean?

You shouldn't actually have to say anything to them, if they've been brought up with the view that sex is healthy and normal, it's not necessary. I don't discuss our sex life with DD, and DH certainly wouldn't, you do need boundaries but it's ridiculous to pretend we aren't having sex or that she isn't - she has a gorgeous new boyfriend who will be coming to stay at some point during the summer.

If you can't bear to have sex while he's in the house,lest he overhear, it's your issue tbh.

You are suggesting that the attitude I have is wrong, damaging even, but now you feel threatened into defending/justifying your POV?

You feel that your way has worked, I feel that my way has, either of us could have had a nasty surprise I suppose. We just do what we think is best.

Mal- I wasn't aware that I was answering your post or indeed anything you had said about how you deal with this issue of privacy?

Oh , terribly sorry, I didn't realise I was intruding into a private conversation.

I was responding to your post of 11.44, of how you found it hard to maintain a sex life with your son at home, things have moved quickly though so my posts are out of sync.

I'll butt out then.

Mal, you know perfectly well it is not a private conversation- but the majority of my recent posts re. were in response to the exchanges between whenwillIfeelnormal.

I was not responding to anything you had said about sex and privacy, so your reaction to my posts about being judged or whatever you said are completly OTT and unnecessary.

I also didn't post anything at 11.44 so you've got me very confused now.

I guess I must just be old fashioned. My Son who is approaching 16 will not be sleeping with girls under my roof. He will have to wait until he's 21 and then only if he's married. I'm not having my home used as a brothel.

With an attitude like yours he'll end up with so many issues regarding sexuality that he'll need 10 years of therapy to have a normal sex life!

"Home used as a brothel?" Silly cow.

THing is, when one has an opportunity to have good sex (by good sex I mean, sex with an enthusiastic willing partner and the appropriate use of contraception) there is actually NO good reason NOT to have it. Whenever you want it. The idea that sex is something awful that DC (especially DDs) need to be protected from is patriarchal and toxic. WHile some people still behave as though sex is something men pursue, which it's women's job to ration their access to (ie the more sex a woman has, the less her value is completely commodifying women) there will be loads of people being made needlessly miserable.