What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

dignified your comment about your ex being 95% ok rings a bell. That's how I would describe our relationship. Even so much as 98% ok, just this issue that should be ironed out. The problem is that things are so good/easy for such long periods of time.

More questions !
Things are so good for long periods of time, why ? Is it because it just is , ie, your both behaving naturally , or it because you are sidestepping issues , or behaving in a way to not upset him ( even if its subconsciously )?

Think carefully about this, living together is hard work, they are annoying, ect. When was the last time he pissed you off, no matter how small or petty, and did you say anything ?

How can everything be ok most of the time when your partner wont discuss having a family or not, again its clearly important to you.

Before you suggest couples counselling, be aware, where there is emotional abuse a lot of counsellers refuse to counsel as often emotional abusers ( i know you dont like that word ) simply learn how to abuse better, and theres a real possibility that you will be blamed, ie, it may be reffered to as a communication problem when its not.
Ill try to find some links.

www.counselling-directory.org.uk/mental.html

eqi.org/eabuse1.htm#Denying

Sorry it's me again!

I am looking at the emotional abuse stuff, and while there are a few things that certainly ring bells (i.e. rejection of your emotions using silent treatment) to be honest I can't see many other similarities. Obviously I am not totally objective! - but I don't hear lots of bells ringing.

Perhaps it would help if I went through them.

These seem to be suggested themes:

• Degrading someone - name-calling/criticising/imitating you He never does this. He praises me in public and in private. Has never, ever called me a nasty name in 8 years. Never, ever criticized my appearance, regularly tells me I'm beautiful, lovely. Does not put me on a pedestal either, but generally tells me I am great, doing well, am good. He often points out when I've done something well. He is admiring of me. He thinks I do a great job with my career and tells me so. Yelling at me, swearing - no, he never ever does this. Our problem is the opposite, he shuts down. I can probably count the number of times he has raised his voice to me on the fingers of one hand. I on the other hand regularly fly off the handle! Am very red-blooded. He never uses nasty, low, voices with me - ever.

• terrorising some/causing terror - again, never. Never ever felt physically threatened by him. Never seen him be violent. He has never raised a hand to me. When he smashed the bowl last night that's the most violent thing he's done. It is not a 'pattern' of his behaviour.

• isolating you from family/friends, tries to reduce your contact Again, the exact opposite. He is paying hundreds of pounds for me to go to Europe next week to see a girlfriend as he knows I am lonely and a bit down about living where we do (and he isn't making a song and dance about having paid for it either, he just quietly picked up the tab and will never expect me to 'thank' him as such for doing it). Never ever minds if I'm out with friends. Is happy for me to see people. When he's away for a long period he often says before he goes 'now have you got people lined up to see, will you have enough company, you should organise something you'd like to do, whack it on my card if you need to as I'm worried you'll get lonely'.

• With-holding of money - never. Generous to a T and never shouts about it. I have full access to our joint account (in fact I spend most of the money) and he never ever questions anything I put on it. Encourages me to treat myself to clothes etc as I often feel guilty about spoiling myself.

• Possessive/Jealous - no. Has never in 8 years questioned where I've been, who I've been with, what I'm doing. Never accused me of flirting with anyone else. Is very laid back about it all.

• Makes constant requirements for attention - no. Don't see this. He is pretty low maintenance emotionally. I 'need' a lot more emotional support than him.

• deliberating starts arguments to cause drama - hates drama, hates fuss. Never starts arguments. I have the opposite problem actually.

• Denying someone's emotional needs - yes. This is true. Not on a daily basis, but yes he totally shuts me out and abuses me during these moods. I need emotional support from his behaviour and he won't give it to me.

• denying perceptions - not regularly, but I guess when we have these chats during his silent phase he's a denier. "You're grumpy" "No I'm not" "Why are you silent then" "No I'm not" etc ad finitum.

(So he's ticking boxes under the 'denial' category, yes)

• dominating, resorting to threats to get what you want - cannot ever recall this happening.

• Emotional blackmail/threats to end relationship - he's never done this. But he does give me the 'cold shoulder' that seems to come under emotional blackmail.

• Minimising - he does this but only during these moods. "I'm upset" "well you're being a bit melodramatic aren't you"? And frankly I think a lot of men say that to their wives when they see the waterworks start up (not excusing here, just pointing out a global truth - men tend to want to fix things whereas women tend to want to cry and wallow in their mood a little - sorry for sexist stereotyping!!)

• unpredictable responses - no. I wouldn't say so. He is quite predictable in what he likes and doesn't. It's his inability to express these that is causing problems

• verbal assaults using sarcasm, screaming etc - never. I'm the sarky one in this relationship

So. While I see that yes, some of his behaviour is emotionally manipulative, I can't say that he is an abusive person.

I don't FEEL abused.

I think people are often hung up about the word "abuse" because it is associated with extreme cases. It is not, in itself, an extreme word. It can mean anything from "speak unkindly" upwards (according to my dictionary). It's like saying shoplifting isn't theft because it isn't bank robbery. Anyway, whatever label you choose to apply, it is still a bad thing, never mind what it isn't as bad as. It is certainly no way for one adult to behave towards another.

dignified i will look at your links.

To answer your question why are things good? I think, because they're good.

If he's done something to piss me off I tell him without hesitation, I am very vocal

Whether it's not putting the dishwasher on or doing something I find hurtful or doing something I find annoying - I always tell him. I am trying to answer your question truthfully but I really don't think I hold back in starting an argument or critisizing him or telling him he's been out of order.

It's only this silent treatment issue that I have never pushed or addressed. Probably because I'm just so relieved it's over. (I accept this is wrong)

Emotional abuse falls into three patterns:

Aggressive: which includes name-calling, belittling, blaming, accusing, yelling, screaming, making threats, degrading insults or destructive criticism.

Denying: this includes sulking, manipulation, neglecting, not listening, withholding affection and distorting the other?s experience.

Minimising: this can include belittling the effect of something, isolating, accusations of exaggerating or inventing and offering solutions or 'advice'.

Clearly hes not an aggressive abuser, he doesnt have to be because what hes doing works well at the moment. As the above says it falls into 3 patterns, and id say he denys and minimises. And it is an abuse.

There are various sites that offer advice on how to deal with these sorts of behaviours, but behind these behaviours in the issue of control. When these behaviours no longer have the desired effect it is not unusual for them to adopt another tactic.

dignified:

There are various sites that offer advice on how to deal with these sorts of behaviours - can you direct me?

When these behaviours no longer have the desired effect it is not unusual for them to adopt another tactic - like what?

www.ehow.com/how_2071349_stop-emotional-abuse.html

www.howtoguides365.com/how-to/emotional-abuse/

www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/emotional_abuse.shtml

Think this is probably the best one

That is a fantastic link, Dignified. Thanks!
It has identified TEN behaviours my ex did, which have been confusing me all these years (I've still been excusing him; wondering how I should adjust my attitude in future, etc.) It's the first time I've seen them accurately described.

I also noted several behaviours YallaYalla has mentioned ...

Me too

fuck

Hope your ok op.

Thanks am ok dignified. Bit shocked by everything that came up on here, but just talked things through again with my very wise friend. It is helpful to talk to someone who knows him/me/us quite well.

I have made an appointment to see a counsellor here, alone, early next week to discuss all this. I need some professional advice I think at this stage.

I will not raise this issue again with DH until I am clear in my mind exactly what I am facing, and how best to confront it.

Hopefully she can advise me on whether counselling could work for him/us and how best to proceed for my and our benefit.

Thanks to all who posted. It's been an eye-opener.

good luck.

even though this all feels awful now, you're on the road to fixing it in whatever way is right for you.

Good luck from me, too

I am vastly impressed by your common sense. Glad you have a good friend to discuss with - wishing you a great counsellor. x

Good luck op. I hope everything works out for you.

Hi,

Does anyone remember this thread of mine?

I'd like to post an update.

Thanks.
Yalla.

I remember, Yalla!

I didn't post before but would love to hear an update. Please post.

Well I missed the thread but have just read the OP... post away!

Yes please

Yes I remember. Post away!

Thanks guys,

Thought I would post an update of what's happened over the past couple of weeks. Sorry it's an ESSAY - feel free to skip parts that are boring! It just is very therapeutic getting it all down on paper.

In a nutshell:

1. I quickly came to realise that what I am suffering IS emotional abuse. I can understand it better when I think of the word 'abuse' as actually being 'control' - i.e. I am being controlled to some extent in my marriage.

1. I can't describe why I thought this, but once I realised that DH actually IS being abusive I had a sudden urge to protect myself. I think I realised that now I know what's happening, I will have to confront him and ask him to change and that he will either refuse or become nasty. Something in my gut tells me he will become VERY nasty when I continue to challenge him.

1. I have ordered and read the Bancroft book. He is the CLASSIC water torturer.

1. I have also been to see a counsellor twice. She was great. In two short sessions she suggested that, at best, DH and I have a "very dysfunctional marriage" and at worst there is what she calls 'control'.

She is reluctant to throw labels around which I respect, and also says that his behaviour and our relationship dynamics don't happen in a vacuum, and that other aspects of our lives will impact this. But she says that what I have been enduring is definitely not 'normal'. It really helped to hear someone else say that.

She also helped me see how we got into this situation (me watching my father verbally abuse my mother, him watching his mother verbally abuse his father).
There are lots of other issues in his childhood which I think are responsible in creating the person he is today, but she says this mustn't make me feel sorry for him (still struggling a bit with that).

1. After the counselling sessions, I went to see him in a hotel room locally (he was there on business) to try to talk about my concerns on neutral territory. It was a disaster.

I said I was very upset about the fact that he threw a bowl at my feet and he did the classic.
First he said it was because I had thrown something at him first (a lie).
Then he said he was justified in throwing the bowl because I had snatched a laptop out of his hands first (true - but I only did that after 30 minutes of pouring my heart out to him about how bad I feel about our relationship, only for him to offer me back stony silence and contempt).
He kept repeating 'You give aggression, you get aggression back - You give aggression, you get aggression back'.
Like a weird mantra.

I asked him what would happen if he threw a bowl at his boss. 'I'd be fired', he said instantly.
'So why is it ok to do that me?' I asked him.
He said it was my fault for having been aggressive to him first.
I moved on. Said in a neutral voice that I believe we have serious problems and that it's not right - whomever was at fault - for a husband and wife to get into a situation where there is physical aggression between us.
Silence from him.
I challenged him on his emotional stonewalling, not responding to any issues I raise with him. "That's your problem", he said.
"Can't you see I'm upset about what's going on?" I asked him.
Then he switched tactics. Laughing, rolling eyes, mocking me.
"This is because you don't have enough to DO," he then announced. "You are bored at home and have nothing better to do then invent problems. Jesus." Horrible little mocking voice.
I asked him what he meant by that.
"Questions, questions. This is like an interrogation" he said.

Then his phone rang. A work call. Saved by the bell.
By the time the call ended he was standing up and then basically said I should leave now because "this meeting has just been so so fun".
I didn't react and just wordlessly left.
An hour or so later he texted me: "Sorry I was really horrible to you. I love you".
I didn't reply. Didn't seem any possible response to that.

1. I then went on holiday to see my friend for a week. When I came home he pretty much quickly reverted to 'normal' (we only had 36 hours together before he left on another business trip).

At night he cuddled me lots and kept whispering 'I'm sorry I love you' to me. He didn't say WHAT he was sorry for mind, and I didn't press him. This is because I am planning to have a major chat with him once he gets back from his other trip when we have longer together.

Anyway, on Saturday we had a lovely day. He made me tea in bed, we went for lunch with friends, all seemingly normal.

When we got back from lunch, he started doing some of his laundry.

He had to do it because I had been away for quite a few days and was not around to do it (I normally do all laundry as I work from home so it's very easy for me just to throw on a wash while I make my lunch etc).
Also, since I got back from holiday I made a decision not to do ANY laundry for him seeing as he still hasn't let me speak to him about our problems properly.

He got a bit huffy and said 'why am I having to do all this laundry' in a pained voice.
I replied that I had stopped doing his laundry and other domestic servicing because I was not receiving any emotional support I had been asking for.
He didn't react immediately, but within 5 minutes he did. I'm embarrassed to say this - given the man is almost 40 fricking years old - but he then sort of curled up and lay in a ball on the sofa, with his eyes shut.

We had planned a nice evening at home alone - DVDs and a bottle of wine - but when I tried talking to him about dinner or what movie to watch he just became a silent mute.
Couldn't believe this was happening again!
I spent about 5 minutes trying to 'jolly' him out of it. Failed to do so.
I then decide I'm actually pretty pissed off now.
We are having a perfectly nice day and because I'm not doing his laundry he goes into shutdown again.

So - I start ranting and raving. Being shouty naggy wife. Shouting, not screaming, but definitely angry and raising my voice.
Saying I can't believe he's acting like such a toddler and this is ridiculous etc.
He then says 'Fuck you'.

This drives me nuts so I start really going for it. Effing and blinding like a fish wife.
All the time he is lying there like some bloody baby on the sofa, not looking at me or taking in what I'm saying.

Not proud but I just see red, I'm so frustrated.
I smack his arm a couple of times with my open palm - not painful enough to be a slap, but sort of banging his arm with my palm and scream 'fuck off fuck off'.
I KNOW this is not great behaviour but I feel like a woman possessed. Can anyone relate to this?

So - and now I'm beginning to learn the script - he then says 'See! You're the one who's mad. You have no control. You are being so aggressive. Look at you you're bloody mad. This is all about you isn't it. You've had to be in control of the whole day (wtf???). This is all about you trying to control me. You're losing the plot'.

Cue more shouting from me. I start yelling at him saying he's a bloody wifebeater because he threw a bowl at/near me at STILL hasn't apologised and what sort of man does a thing like that and doesn't even think he's done anything WRONG?

He then says, in a very low controlled voice: "Do you want me to punch you in the f+cking face?"

My HUSBAND says this to me. Words fail me.

Everything after that is a bit of a blur but I think I go into shock. Hysterical crying from me. Wailing on the floor at what we've come to.
I start crying out that we will split up soon if nothing changes, that we are on the path to divorce. I am literally sobbing my heart out on the carpet. He sits there like an automaton. No attempt to comfort me.

Sounds strange but eventually after about 20 minutes I stopped crying. There is nowhere to GO, we are stuck in the house together. So eventually I just sit back on the sofa and start watching TV with him.

Eventually we start talking. He comforts me a bit (says I look 'sexy' after having been crying ). I say we need to have a MAJOR talk. He accepts we are having "a few little problems" but that they'll "work themselves out".
I insist they won't work themselves out and we need to have a serious talk about all the terrible issues in our marriage.
He says he is happy to talk, but doesn't want "a long talk". I said ok we'll have several short talks then - when should we start? He sort of laughed and said: "Well, it won't be when YOU want it to be."

I said ok you choose the day then. He said "I'm not a fan of PLANNED talks. Can't we just chat casually a bit here and there?".
I just became exasperated and gave up at this stage. There is no point me pushing a particular date yet as we don't know the exact date he's back from his latest trip.

He then said something a bit strange. He said it nicely and calmly, but his words were strange.
"Oh and by the way, and don't threaten me with us splitting up. We are SO far from splitting up. This is not going to split us up."

In the morning, he left early for his business trip. He cuddled me and said he loved me (I didn't really respond as half asleep) and again he said: 'Remember, we are not splitting up. We will stay together.'

THE END! (medal for those who read even some of this)

Where do I go from here? I know this is bad, I know this is serious, but I feel paralysed. I also do still love him very much (f+cked up I know). Where is my gorgeous loving husband from just one month ago? He seems to have vanished.

Why have things go so bad so quickly? I'm simply at a loss to explain. Literally a month ago I thought I had a very happy marriage. I would never in a million years have thought I would ever hear him say the words 'Do you want to me punch you in the face'. I mean what kind of man says that to his wife?

Also why do I seem to be becoming physically aggressive? I am NEVER normally like this. Is this what he wants me to do? Or am I frustrated? It's a concern to me.

He is back from his latest trip later this week - I am going to dive straight in with a BIG talk I think. I just feel so confused and very alone.

Please help me with WHAT I should say/demand and HOW to. I can't see the wood for the trees here.

oh wow. I don't really know what to say

DO you think you can get past it, as he says?

I'm thinking a trial separation... he should stay somewhere else until he can grow up and accept there's a problem?

Holy shit Yalla.
Can I just say, NONE of this is your fault. But you an see that. You have really really tried. Don't beat yourself up about smacking him or shouting either.

I would say he is a lost cause, and you need to get the fuck out and leave him to it.
And I dont normally say that, but he is seriously undermining you.

I wouldn't bother with the talk. He's beyond help now.