What Would You Do?

[YallaYalla]

Hi,

Looking for a bit of advice please. I am slowly working out that DH has some major issues with passive aggressive behaviour. We've just come back from a week-long holiday and he is no longer talking to me because of a row we had on the last day. He has gone into emotional shutdown and as usual I am paying the price.

In brief: I wanted to do something (buy a souvenir on our last night) which he didn't want to do; I could tell he wasn't keen and offered to leave him in the bar we were having sundowners in while I nipped up to the shop; he didn't take me up on this offer, and also did not say he didn't want to do it when I asked him in a friendly way about it.

So we leave bar and walk to shop buy souvenir, him seemingly in an ok mood. On leaving shop he gets into a major strop because he was very sweaty and hot from the walk (tropics) and within a space of about 5 minutes shuts down totally.

Doesn't want to do anything, goes mute, won't respond to queries of if he's ok, my offers to go and stand in areas where there is AC, queries about which bar he would like to go to next and where we should have dinner on our last night.

Eventually he says he's had enough and wants to go back to the hotel and do nothing/watch TV. It's 8pm, it's the last night of our holiday and we're both dolled up for a good night out.

I'm pretty pissed off, but use my usual tactics for snapping him out of these moods - cuddling him, ignoring his mood, teasing him gently, trying to take charge in a non-confrontational way. It worked for a bit, and then I got a bit exhausted by the whole effort and said, fine, let's go back to the hotel. We are waiting in a taxi queue and I say I'm just popping into this shop to use the loo.

He claims he thought I said 'see you back at the hotel'. I though I'd made it fairly clear I was just nipping to the loo but it's possible he didn't hear me as we were about 10 metres away from each other. Anyway, point is, I return from the loo and he's vanished.

He KNOWS I have no money in my pocket whatsoever (he always carries the cash on nights out on holiday) and no mobile phone which I've left in the hotel safe. So he's dumped me in the middle of a capital city in Asia. Admittedly, it's a safe city, it's not late, I know the way back to the hotel 20 minutes away, and we're in a really touristy area. But it's the principle of just being dumped like that without even money for a taxi. I'm furious. Walk back to hotel room.

Half an hour later he shows up. I am fuming. Not proud of what happens next but I use the security chain to stop him getting access to the hotel room. I tell him he's not coming in as he dumped me in a foreign city with no resources. He asks again to be let in. I say no and slam the door shut.

Eventually, at 2am, he tries the door again. This time I've softened and feel pretty bad for locking him out of the room (even though HE had his wallet and credit cards and finances mean he could easily booked himself another room in the same hotel for the night). I let him in, he walks in in silence and hasn't spoken to me since.

We flew home in silence and he sat separately to me from the plane. Now we are home and he's still in the silent treatment mode, sleeping on the sofa. Total emotional frigging shutdown.

Now. I KNOW I was unreasonable to prevent him access to the hotel room for a few hours. I haven't apologised yet either (he's stonewalling me and I don't see what value it would have at this time). But, as usual, it's me who looks the nutter.

He could not express feelings on us going to the shop. He 'punishes' me for taking us there by shutting down emotionally, and then abandoning me on the last night of our holiday in a foreign city with no bloody money in my pocket. I shut him out of the hotel room but in no way compromised his safety (for all I know he spent the intervening hours in the hotel lobby bar knocking back single malts). And, as usual, I am sitting here tearing my hair out, trying to find a way to get him to open up and being given the silent treatment.

I've spent some time on the internet this morning looking at PA behaviour. I'm sure he doesn't have the PA personality disorder as generally he is a very good, loving, honest man who holds down a very stressful and highly-paid job and - this issue aside - our marriage is strong and we have a good relationship. But I just can't BEAR this passive aggressive shit.

What am I supposed to do?
Any tips for how I can make myself feel better while his mood subsides?
Any tips for how I can snap him out of it?
Should I apologise for locking him out of the room?

Sorry - this is an essay - just feel like I'm going mad here. Thanks if you got this far.

No experience, but I would tell him - but only if I was not near him/in person at the time, safely in the UK. But I have no idea if that is practical or not.

Hopefully people with more experience will come along because I do think this needs careful handling. I don't think you need monitoring and supervision, though!

So he is prepared to accept you moving to the UK with your child and only see each other every now and then

Why not do that then?

You can live like that and withdraw from the marriage in your own head and withdraw form it completely when you are ready.

You need to decide whether or not

a) you want the baby
b) you can undergo a termination

no other factors need come into it - either way you will have to live with your decision for the rest of your life - you really need to make sure it is the right one.

Yes strikes me that the marriage is, to all intents and purposes, over.
I don't think you really have the luxury of finishing it in your own time, at leisure now.
So I would say don't use buying time as a factor.
You will be bringing up this child on your own either way. I once had a friend in a similar position and she thought long and hard whether to terminate. She didn't, but she did make sure that all contact with the abusive husband was severed. She has done a great job of bringing up her daughter. She also has a good job and very settled life, which admittedly took a few years to get to, but she did, as she is a determined sort of person.

You are questioning about being honest with him and you think you could try and make it work.

You have given yourself two options, saty and have the baby or terminate.
Have you really considered the other options?

Hi,

In answer to what you guys seem to be saying, I have thought about having the child alone.

But from what I've read, and from what friends with kids have told me, and from what I've observed myself, the key to going it alone is support. And lots of it.

If I have this child alone the facts are:

• My parents live overseas and don't have the finances to visit regularly or for long periods, so no babysitters on hand etc, or moral support and guidance on tap.

• I have a brother who lives elsewhere in the UK and travels overseas frequently for work for months at a stretch.

• I would relocate to London. I have a good few close friends here, but not a single family member lives here (they are all scattered around the UK or in different overseas locations so there isn't even a 'home town' I could move to to access a support network).

• My parents are broke - they would not be able to offer any financial support.

• Settlement/maintenance from DH would be good, even handsome (but he will fight and fight and it will take a while).

• I will have to move back to the UK, pregnant, jobless, and having been out of the formal job market for several years. It will be v difficult to find a decent (or, at least, permanent) job while pregnant, so I'm facing a year of basically not working. And then starting everything from scratch.

• Who will I sit with when up at 4am breastfeeding? Who will give me a break at weekends? I have zero family here who could take over and help me out(DH is obviously staying overseas, and so will have very irregular contact with the child).

• I would like, one day, to have a chance at building a new life. If I have a child, of course the baby will take preference. After all my misdirected sacrifices of recent years, I feel it is better to establish 'me', work out who I am again, before I take on the enormous challenge of bringing up a little person.

• I would LOVE a baby, but only if the circumstances are right. I just don't think they are, right now. Unless if I'm missing something? Could I be wrong?

Sorry for rant, just helps my decision-making to get it all down on paper.

Dittany - cross-posted with you. Thanks for your input. This is all so helpful.

I agree 'fairness' doesn't really seem to matter right now. Protecting myself seems paramount.

I have been following this thread. I just wanted to make the point that you will also need a lot of support if you decide to end your pregnancy and I hope friends/family will be there for you should this be your decision.

I expect if I said yes, you need to be fair that I would be shouted down. I think you should tell him you are considering getting rid of his child because it is the right thing to do.

I think you are in danger of not being able to make your own mind up about what to do as you are constantly asking for advice on everything. I know how hard it is when you need support. I have had a lot of it from MN and have appreciated it all. But I have only been able to move forward once I was able to make the decision for me of what I needed to do as well as talking to one person who knows me. While mumenetters may have said similar things, it wasn't able to resonate with me as I wasn't able to hear it properly.

FWIW my advice is to try and separate the issues. If you want to be completely free of this man there is no way you can have this child as he won't just let you go but still financially support you. Is your freedom from him worth the loss of your child?

Or, you make him go to counselling and have a last ditch, serious attempt at trying to fix your marriage and continue with the pregnancy but you would have to be prepared that your marriage will end at some point and you will be tied together forever with this baby.

You file for divorce, move away and bring up your child alone. You have to think about whether denying your child its father is the right thing to do. Is the child likely to be at risk of harm from him? etc.

I'd like to echo Claire70 - I don't think you should be being influenced by people you don't know on an internet site, for a decision this important. I also, like Claire70, have a slightly different view of your situation (and your husband's actions/reactions) to that of most posters here.

I hope you can find a way to work it out for all three of you. He doesn't come across to me as an inherently bad or unstable man, but I don't know you or him - hence why I think you should be seeking advice and support from people that know you both in real life.

YallaYalla,

Your H had a great teacher in his mother teaching him such abuse techniques (she's done and likely still does the silent treatment). You YY were also taught by your parents many damaging lessons. It is no surprise to me at all that you got together in the first place.

Making him go to counselling would be a pointless exercise which is not worth any more of your time. Joint counselling in particular would be disasterous for you in particular as he will bamboozle the counsellor and make it all out to be your fault. He will learn to become ever more devious and covert with his abuse as well.

Not a legacy you want to leave for your child.

I don't think he will ever let go of you easily child or no child. Controlling men do not let go of their victims easily and he won't let go of you at all without a fight and much anguish on your part. I feel he is more than prepared to fight you tooth and nail because this is all about power and control. He wants complete power and control over you and will stop at nothing to get this.

"He doesn't come across to me as an inherently bad or unstable man, but I don't know you or him"

You would let your H or partner treat you like this?. Abuse is insidious in its onset and not easy to spot particularly when as has happened here its escalated over a long time.

I don't know YallaYalla either but I do recognise when someone is in an abusive relationship and the vast majority of the respondents have said this is an abusive relationship. Emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse and takes years to recover from.

The sad thing for me in all this is that it will take a long time, years infact, to recover from what this man has done to her.

Thanks for the posts.

Attila - thanks in particular to yours. They are very helpful to me. I have now told him counselling is a total waste of time and have 'dropped' this demand. There just is no point, I can totally see that.

I agree that he will not let me go easily. He keeps referring to the baby as 'my' child (i.e. his). This, the same baby he is happy to have raised separately from him, if it means he can continue with his precious career.

I hear what posters are saying about how I seem unable to take any decisions now at all, and it's strange to post online for advice on taking decisions of this magnitude. I know it's not healthy, but I am using this as one of several support networks.

I am not expecting strangers to tell me what to do. I guess I am pretty much decided that the marriage is probably doomed, and that I don't think I want to then have this child alone. I am not 100% sure of my decision yet, but am just gathering strength and trying to work out if I am making the right decision.

My real question was to those with knowledge of abuse, as to how best to have a termination logistically-speaking, given he could become violent or aggressive. I appreciate there might be no clear answer.

I am confused. I am paralysed. I am finding it incredibly difficult to make any decision. I feel frozen. I am concerned about this but can't work out quite why I feel like this. Perhaps I simply don't trust my instincts and my decision-making process anymore, as I appear to have made a huge mistake in marrying this man. That is why I am posting for support.

7 weeks ago I had a 'normal' life. A husband I loved, a comfortable home and lifestyle, a peaceful existence. In 7 weeks I have had to deal with finding out that my DH is abusive, recognising there are signs he is becoming violent, realising that my marriage appears to be over, discovering I'm pregnant, and now the possibility of having to terminate a pregnancy.

Oh - and it's amazing that this is now a mere footnote - one week ago my father was also diagnosed with cancer.

So all in all it's been an awful rollercoaster and for whatever reason my life has been turned uupside down. I am reaching out for any help I can get. My friends can't provide it all. I am sorry if some on here are frustrated with me or think I am some kind of deranged needy weirdo. In fact, at times I feel like that myself. Sometimes I feel such despair I wonder whether I AM actually going mad, whether I might need sectioning.

Anyway. I know this will be up and down. I have friends who are being wonderful. And tomorrow I am going to tell a family member everything, which is a big step for me.

As some of you say, it's time to step away from the net and get real. Thanks for everyone who has offered advice and opinions. It really has been such a comfort.

YallaYalla oh that's quite alright she writes [blush}.

And no you do NOT need sectionning!. Goodness me whatever gave you that idea. Far from it, if anyone needs treatment it is him but it will never be readily received. He has estated that much re counselling.

I think the more support services you access the better off you will be in helping you make decisions. At present you are the proverbial deer caught in the headlights but clarity will come and soon.

For what its worth if I had marriage difficulties I would want posters like Dittany, Isgraceavailable, rowingcah and anniegetyourgyn amongst others who have written to you writing to me. I value their opinions highly and I have seen examples of their opinions on other threads too. You may not always accept or even like what they write (which of course is your perogative) but I feel they always write with the best of intentions (as do I).

You've told us you have close, good friends, Yalla, and you have been spending quite a bit of time with them. I very much respect your approach to this big dilemma of yours

It's worrying that you're so very unsure of what to do - have your friends suggested this has happened (got worse) since being married? Controlling peeople manage to undermine even the strongest of partners, and in your case the groundwork had been done by your parents.

Please don't worry about anyone else - not him, your parents or sibs: just yourself and your future. I think your friends are more of a family to you than the ones with legal status!

I'm very sorry you're having to deal with so much all at once, my love. Please keep yourself safe & surrounded by friends. Good luck; let us know how you're doing

Atilla - gosh, I'm honoured by the namecheck!

Hi YallaYalla, Ive been following this thread from the start, and I really feel for you and the situation you are in, it must be awful!!

I do, however, think its odd that you are thinking of having an abortion simply because you don't want to be a single mum! (or have I missed something?) Very few people actively choose to raise their kids on their own, my ex left me a week after our second DD was born. Not sure how many weeks pregnant you are, but you have a baby inside you, it is alive! I think its strange to consider aborting your baby because you are not in the situation you thought you would be when you had children. I never thought I would be a single parent, but I love my children just as much as when we had a complete family unit.

Life doesn't always turn out how you think it will, and if you choose to bring another life into the world (as you have) then I think it is irresponsible to change your mind just because your circumstances change. Being a single parent is hard, but you will survuve, just like the rest of us have. If you really want your child then you will want it whether it has one or two parents brining it up.

You don't come across as needy Yalla, at least not to me. You come across as perhaps a little over-analytical, vulnerable because you are in new territory and I think you may have made a big mistake posting on mumsnet when you don't know your own mind. I think its a mistake because you are being advised by people who don't know you or care for you, but who tend to see abuse, or potential abuse whether it is there or not and who give life-changing advice freely. They will not be there to pick up the pieces when this all goes horribly wrong (and by the way no one will be there for the 4am feeds irrespctive or who you are or are not married to).

I don't know you either, but based on what you've written I have an impression which may be accurate or completely wrong. Just playing devils advocate, is there any chance that seven weeks ago your husband loved you, wanted you in his life, was happy you were his wife, but found you a little demanding at times? However he's the type who bottles things up and so he'd swallow his irritation until finally letting you know he wasn't happy by sulking? For whatever reason in his past or defect in his character, he really detests talking about feelings and abhors the idea of going to talk about his feelings and failings as a husband with a therapist?? IF that's true, then what you have done over the last few weeks is push him and push him, until you've provoked him to say things that he could not have imagined saying seven weeks previously.
Now you are pregnant, something you wanted seven weeks ago but you are willing to abort the baby. Why?
Do you love your husband at all?? How could you do that to someone?

The last thing I will say on this ever, is that if you do tell your husband that you plan to divorce him and abort the baby who belongs to you both, then yes, it is very good advice that you put a safe distance between yourself and him before you do that because that is an intolerable thing for a person to hear and if you have any feelings for him at all, then you'll arrange for a friend to be with him when you give him the bad news.
Now your other advisors will rip into me, but like them I am only taking the trouble to write with your interests at heart.

Hello yalla,I've not felt able to post helpfully up until now, but I do feel you may have answered your own question re terminations, you say in a previous post "I'd LOVE to have a baby -in the right circumstances "maybe I'm just drawing on personal experience but I would hazard a guess that many conceptions are not in the ideal circumstances and indeed many in far worse situations.

I mean not to belittle your current plight,but if you do continue with your pregnancy it seems after a tough few years many options would be available to you.

Oh hell, YallaYalla, I hope you don't decide to abort your baby because of anything anyone says on here. Especially as I stuck my two penn'orth in a couple of weeks back so I'd have been a part of that Whatever you decide is right for you is also going to be right for your baby (even if that means it doesn't get to be born - some circumstances it just isn't right to bring a baby into). We can make free with advice here but not a one of us will have to live with either missing a child who didn't get born or carrying and raising that child for at least 18 years. So good luck whatever you do. (A happy ending for me would be if you kept the baby but leaving the arse H, but I don't have to live it.)

As far as I can see, Yalla's never posted anything to suggest she's incapable of making her own decisions! She's told us, several times, that she has sought the advice of her RL friends and posted to other forums. That sounds mature and responsible to me.

Of course, Grace - I'm so sorry, didn't mean to suggest otherwise - she's handling this incredibly difficult situation admirably. But all these competing views can throw a person off-track, especially if they're used to putting others before themselves, and the OP is newly pregnant, recently realised some startling things about her marriage, living overseas and worried, so the most strong-minded and intelligent woman could be forgiven for losing the wood amongst all these trees.

My brain doesn't function well in the hot weather, and I should have gone to bed two hours earlier last night

Hi Yalla, i have followed this from the start and just wanted to offer my support, on a practical note though, how on earth do you think you can terminate a pregnancy in secret? Trust me, he knows you are considering this, and a 'miscarriage' would be very coincidental don't you think?
The termination itself of course is easy to keep secret, the after effects are not.And i mean the physical effects which can be very unpleasant, and of course the emotional effects.A termination may well be the right thing for you, but going through it alone hoping to keep it just your secret wont be easy.It is hard enough when you do have that much needed support, i suppose what i am saying is be careful, you will be very vulnerable afterwards x

either you want this baby (eg your age, etc) or you dont. it is that simple.

the rest, practical stuff, your marraige - is an aside to that decision.

do you think by terminating (in secret or whatever) it will save your marriage? having a baby will or wont save your amrraige, having a termination will or wont save it - it has to be a decision for you...you alone.

even if the best of circumstances no one can say "i wont have this baby if i will become a single mum" - people die in accidents etc - people who had perfect stable marriages end up widowed...life happens.

if you want baby and are getting on in age - then maybe those are the consdierations? along with some idea of practical stuff how to support yourself etc..

having a child witha controlling person isnt ideal ...having a termination because of that person also isnt ideal.... in the end it is down to your decision how you feel about having a baby now....

he may go nuts whatever you do... that is his problem .

whatever you decide - either way - tell him the truth then do what you ened to do and leave him at least for a while to give your self time to come to terms with the deicsion and decide your future and what contact you want/need with him.

if you go off an terminate - take time out on your own.
if you decide to have a baby - seems like would be best for you to take yourself off to uk for rest of regnancy adn establish support/life there - then issues of contact etc well then it can be discussed.
( my friend had baby while husband was working overseas in asia - for first year he commuted, he then moved to europe which made things easier. but she WAS single parent effectively.... it can be done; contact with dad can happenon that basis

another lady i know also took herself off to her home country for last three months of pregnancy - then husband commuted til he could move there.
even in steady marriages - people have babies and bring them up largely as single parent for whatever eg work reasons....

but if now isnt time for you to have a baby, that is ok to make that decision too.

but dont make a decision for him. do it for you...but be honest with him. if you worried about fallout, tell him then go.

Yalla I've been following this thread with interest as so much of your situation resonates with me (except for the pregnancy part), and I think Attilla and Grace have given you some excellent advice.

As others have rightly said, plenty of people end up single parents because of divorce or the death of a partner, etc, and they manage admirably to adapt to single parenthood. However, those circumstances I've just described are thrust upon them with little or no warning. Sure, people cope with unexpectedly finding themselves single parents but would they have willingly become single parents? You are very sensibly weighing up the pros and cons of whether to continue with a pregnancy when it is pretty much a certainty that you will be a single parent with very little support. Without wishing to influence you one way or the other, if it was me in your position, it's not something I would want for myself.

You seem to be perfectly capable of making very sound and logical decisions and I think any self-doubt you may feel now is only the result of having spent years with a man who has constantly undermined you in order to manoevre himself into a position of control and power.

It's good to know that you are speaking to real life friends and family to get some rounded perspective. Only you can ultimately take responsibility for your decisions but it's important you feel supported when you do.

If it were me, I would leave the marriage as soon as possible, get somewhere safe - the UK - and then once you can see what life on your own might be like, you can re-evaluate whether you do want to have the baby or not. If you decide not to, I would tell him, I think keeping a secret like that from him would reinforce any erroneous feelings of guilt you might later feel that you were somehow at fault, or to blame, or deserving of his treatment of you. But I agree with what others have said that if you do tell him, make sure you are well out of his way because from what you've said I wouldn't be sure that you'd be safe.

Do keep posting here if you find it helps you organise your thoughts and get some perspective. I've found my own strength through watching you find yours, so for slightly selfish reasons I want you to stay!

I do wish you all the very best of luck, Yalla, and offer my condolences about your father as well.

Yalla, someone asked upthread, why can't you move back to England, stay "married" and he'll help support the baby? Since he's said he'd be happy for that to occur?

If you terminate and split up, you'll move back to England, right? So you could do what madonnawhore suggests, depending on the timeline available to you.

I don't think you can safely have a termination and then lie to him about it. I think if you were going to have a termination, you would need to have your exit planned already; so, pack your bags, book the ticket, tell him you're leaving, go and have the termination and then go back to England (you might want to stay a night with a friend/in a hotel after the operation depending on if it's a long flight). Because he will be furious with you, he will know what you've done, and he's threatened physical violence enough times that you should really believe him by now. If you're actually going to go ahead and terminate, I wouldn't suggest that you tell him when you're alone with him.

From his perspective, that will be the worst, most aggressive, act of cruelty he's ever been on the receiving end of; and he will make it all about him - that you've terminated the child to get back at him, make a point, etc.

But you can't stay with him, obviously. He's told you exactly who he is and how he is going to act. You don't want to believe him, but you have to. He's not lying and really he's a nicer person than he says he is - people don't do that.

I'm not going to counsel you about the baby past what I've already said. But don't for a second think that he won't consider it an act justifying a violent reprisal.