Introducing my partner to feminism...

[blinder]

On the back of a spate of good feminism threads here lately I am looking for book recommendations to give to my DP as an introduction to a feminist critique of society.

He's not a particularly neanderthal man - he loves Naomi Klein for example - but he's a bit uneducated about the reality facing women today.

We have a six month old daughter and it worries us both that she is being launched into a culture that systematically de-humanises (objectifies) girls. I'm sure he would be willing to explore ways that we can parent her consciously so that she can preserve her identity in the face of damaging cultural norms.

At the same time, I don't want him to feel lectured, blamed or patronised by the book. But I would like him to be able to examine his own investment in male superiority and recognise that he does have many assumptions about women and many blind spots about male privilege.

It's a fine line.

So, books for men, fathers or people new to feminism?

Re: Anti Feminism Bingo -- forgot the phrase, 'I wax/shave my legs/armpits, couldn't be a feminist...'

Ok firstly I have no problem with the OP's question. It was a reasonable (if, odd in my own opinion) question to ask, and therefore, she ought not to be attacked for it.

But, I don't think that anyone actually said anything that vicious, I have seen a lot worse on Mumsnet, and what I read was robust opinion, not characted assasination and I feel that the OP was/is more than capable of defending her position, so less of the Poor You OP approach please...

Malificence made a reasonable point re the upbringing of a daughter, and she has a 20something daughter so she speaks from experience, the best example your daughter will get is from her parents, how her mother and father relate will shape her self esteem more than anything else she encounters through her early years.

And LeQueen points out how she has never really suffered from sexism, at least not in an serious way that affected her life. This is not the experience of many women, but it is the experience of many women I know, and the problem is that feminists tend to dismiss this. They want to see victimhood everywhere, when in fact, that is not the case.

And throwing out statistics from 3rd world societies doesnt really hold up for me either becuase in these societies both men and women lead wretched ignorant live, both as much victims of their culture as each other, (i expect to get flamed now for that too, but there you go.)

FWIW I do consider myself to be a feminist. I have always believed and been brought up to believe that a woman should fulfil herself in any way she wants whether that be through running microsoft or staying at home to bring up her children. I have more than a passing acquaintance with DeBeauvoir, Greer and Wolf. I have never felt held back by my sex, love being a woman, and feel sorry for men because I think that Society and our culture fails them. I worry for my 3 sons far more than I do for my 2 daughters, but I know that I am in the minority for this view.

There is no excuse for personal attacks but nothing wrong with vigorous debate, so stop jumping on people who come on to say that Feminism means nothing to them. Feminists themselves put a lot of women off becuase they are so shrill and intolerant a lot of the time of alternative views.

BTW, someone further up said something about how society conditions girls to be all girly/pink/cute/frilly/sparkly from birth. I'm not sure it IS all conditioning. My 2 year old niece is scarily obsessed by her own appearance already - already going through clothing catalogues picking the pink frilly stuff out saying "I want that", showing me her new shoes etc as if they are the most important thing in the world (I find it hard to feign enthusiasm as I have no interest in shoes, pink or otherwise!), wanting sparkly hair clips in her hair etc etc. Her mum isn't that fussed by her own appearance so where is my neice getting this attitude from at the age of 2?

'throwing out statistics from 3rd world societies doesnt really hold up for me either becuase in these societies both men and women lead wretched ignorant live, both as much victims of their culture as each other' - this just isn't true. Women in poverty in developing countries have, in absolutely measurable ways, the worst deal of all. This is not to say that men in poverty in developing countries don't also have a shitty deal - they do. But women's lives are worse in almost every measurable aspect.

Anyway, this is one of those can't-win arguments, isn't it?

NON-FEMINIST: Feminism is outdated and has nothing to say to people any more.
FEMINIST: But what about
NON-FEMINIST: Feminists are all about victimhood, it's so tedious.

And also by 2 girls have been exposed to a lot of talk about prettiness, I think, even when they themselves are not yet verbal, they're taking it in.

"Feminists themselves put a lot of women off becuase they are so shrill and intolerant a lot of the time of alternative views."

There's so much wrong about this I don't know where to start.

But I'll have a go

What do you mean by 'shrill'? A very odd thing to say.

'Intolerant'. Why shouldn't we be intolerant of those who hold views that are offensive?!

What alternative views would you like us to consider?

How is the pursuit of respect and the desire to being treated as an equal something that would put you - or any other woman - off, exactly?

Or do you not want to be treated as an equal? Would you rather not have the vote? Not earn an equal wage? Not have the right to work? Etc, blah blah ad infinitum.

CurlyhairedAssassin, agree with this. My dd is the same. I am not at all fixated with clothes/jewels/make up - bare minimum really (well not clothes) - but my dd is in heaven in Claire's Accessories.

Actually, dd had her bday party today and had all her lipgloss and jewels set out in her bedroom. The boys were MORE interested in it than the girls.

"But, I don't think that anyone actually said anything that vicious"

I don't know what planet you live on, but I think being called boring, patronising and having my partner called a wimp/wuss is actually quite vicious - on the basis of an original question that asked about recommended books.

Nikita I did actually get some pretty vicious name-calling, and the accusation that I was damaging my daughter (hmm) but you're right I can look after myself.

But with regard to all the helpful reminders that how you raise your child affects their self-esteem - I understand that. I don't know what in my posts suggests that I won't parent my daughter with loving compassion and try to be a good example to her. Was the advice really relevant?

I suppose it depends whether you think that society poses enough of a threat to girls (yes also boys) for me and my partner as parents to educate ourselves about that risk specifically. Personally, I see the objectification of little girls worsening all the time. Playboy accessories horrify me. Little prostitution badges on little girls. The fact that they are available for sale in normal high street shops tells me everything I need to know about current cultural norms.

And its great that LeQueen hasn't experienced sexism but my daughter probably will. Most girls aged 14 think that anal sex is a normal part of sexual experience (Channel4 documentary) because it is featured in porn as a standard item. Most teenage boys (same source) think it is perfectly normal to cum on a girl's face. That's a steepening cultural trend in which girls are being perceived, now more than ever, and younger than ever, as fuck-toys.

So thanks for the parenting tips - I'll bear them in mind, but can we assume that I know how to parent in a good enough way, and get back to my question about feminism.

Oh I really want to stay and fight shoulder to shoulder with the MN feminists but I am doing appraisals tomorrow and I need an early night.

Last thought, I want this on my fridge.

You are not the only influence on your daughter, so your own lack of interest in fripperies isn't any indication that girls are somehow born hard-wired to this. In fact, it's a good argument against it, isn't it?

TheShriekingHarpy - who was your post directed at?

I didn't actually make that quote.

At any rate, what is it that you want me to acknowledge? That sexism affects men? How is that relevant to a discussion about the objectification of girls, specifically, the books that it would be helpful to read about feminism?

Harpy - as I said earlier - the poster is concerned about her daughter, and wants recommendations for her husband. So feminsim is where it's at.

And I can't help reading some of your points and thinking "but why is it like that"...

Skatergrrrl - sleep well. I'm off too, to have a feminist glass of Cava for mother's day.

Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers on this thread by the way, feminist or otherwise.

Woah! A bit late I think

'Intolerant'. Why shouldn't we be intolerant of those who hold views that are offensive?!

How is the pursuit of respect and the desire to being treated as an equal something that would put you - or any other woman - off, exactly?

Or do you not want to be treated as an equal? Would you rather not have the vote? Not earn an equal wage? Not have the right to work? Etc, blah blah ad infinitum

BecuaseI'mWorthIt in what you say, above, you have precisely demonstrated the intolerant nature of your own brand of feminism.

I actually believe that all people, both male and female are entitled to be treated with respect and as equals.

And by the way, in civilised society, I'm afraid one has to tolerate the opinions of otherwise, offensive or not. It's called Democracy, you should look it up sometime.

Blinder as I said, you asked a perfectly reasonable question, I only thought it a bit odd given the age of your daughter, but that again it is only when we become parents that we become so keenly aware of the dangers and pitfalls in society, so on reflection, I don't find it odd from that perspective.

I very much agree on the creeping sexualisation of young girls and it scares me senseless. I wouldn't presume to give you any parenting tips though, as I am not that arrogant!

FallenMadonna, I personally was just pondering precisely WHAT causes a 2 year old girl to be concerned with how she looks when her main female role model is not hugely bothered by her own appearance. I just can't think of ANY other influences at that age that a 2 year old might have seen other than that damn Lelly Kelli advert!

Is it an outside influence that is so subtle that is doing it? Have we all just become so accustomed to these subtle influences that even as adults we don't even note their existence ourselves?