Introducing my partner to feminism...

[blinder]

On the back of a spate of good feminism threads here lately I am looking for book recommendations to give to my DP as an introduction to a feminist critique of society.

He's not a particularly neanderthal man - he loves Naomi Klein for example - but he's a bit uneducated about the reality facing women today.

We have a six month old daughter and it worries us both that she is being launched into a culture that systematically de-humanises (objectifies) girls. I'm sure he would be willing to explore ways that we can parent her consciously so that she can preserve her identity in the face of damaging cultural norms.

At the same time, I don't want him to feel lectured, blamed or patronised by the book. But I would like him to be able to examine his own investment in male superiority and recognise that he does have many assumptions about women and many blind spots about male privilege.

It's a fine line.

So, books for men, fathers or people new to feminism?

No worries...

If I was you I'd leave them to it now....when they haven't got anyone to focus on they'll start fighting amoungst themselves....or just disappear

Oh for goodness sake quit the tedious personal attacks and the its all about meeism.

I have every sympathy with all victims of domestic violence, what normal person doesn't? I do however take issue with 'competitive domestic violenceism'.

Stop getting rude and personal over things that have not been said.

We have all so far been quite gracious about your unpleasant manner and attacks. Sorry if I hit a nerve with the pointing out of fact over fiction thing or by agreeing with dittany about where your cut and pastes come from but you really are asking for it in your posts which are a combination of passive aggressive, rude, circular and outright confrontational.

I seem to be saying this a lot of late but it is all just noise with posters like this.

Deffo Harpie.....these threads become a battle or wills with certain people trying to prove how intelligent they are...I think they forget where they are sometimes, this isn't newsnight.....most of us are just here wasting time between school runs...I couldn't give a toss if someone eats dictionaries for breakfast and knows the ins and outs of a ducks arse...

Here we go with the male victims of DV. It's nowhere near the same as what females go through. NOWHERE near. I'm sick of it being brought up on every thread about feminism.

I've also noticed that women who stick up for the 1 or 2 male victims of DV and don't care about the widespread abuse of women are also the ones who dumb down in male company.

TSH gonna stop shrieking at me will you.

Your quote of Dworkin was copied and pasted from antimisandry.com even down to the two little lines before Dworkin's name (as were your stats about men's health).

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." -- Andrea Dworkin

Now if you don't mind I have a personal rule not to engage with folk on the internet who talk utter shite about 'speaking volumes' and have no manners or anything of substance to say that is based on reality.

You seem stuck on the moment when you made an arse of yourself by quoting something without referencing it or linking to your source. I was already bored of this exchange when you made a further arse of yourself by challenging me to 'prove' that you were quoting fiction.

This is getting really old now.

It is possible that this thread has been killed due to this ongoing, ridiculous, tedious and pathetic nonsense, but if it has not, I will now apply the 'don't engage too much with confrontational fuckwits who will not let something go and then accuse everybody else of going on about it' rule.

Good Day.

Thank you for sharing that SugarPinkMouse. I recently fought hard along with other local residents to stop a lap dancing club from opening in my high street. We gave stories like yours to the council to prove that lap dancing is not harmless fun but degrades women. We were lucky enough to win the case against the venue.

"I object to the idea that you had NO other option. There is/was an element of choice involved."

Yes there was an element of choice - but in an ideal society (one which paid a woman more to waitress than to take her clothes off) she would have had a lot more choices!

A 'free choice' is itself determined by the whole society and culture in which the choice is made! In a world where we pay women more to degrade themselves than do an honest days work, how skewed does the choice become?

I am sure they are SugarPiink, but we shouldn't let it kill off the useful discussion! I have found the recent feminism threads really inspiring, I have started to think in more detail about ideas I hadn't contemplated for a long time. Even stuff like "Secret Diary of a Call Girl" (someone mentioned it earlier on the thread). I think having stuff like that on helps to feed the idea that getting involved in the sex industry is empowering. There is such a lack of balance. Showing the reality wouldn't be considered "appropriate" for TV.

It's taken me a while to read all of this, but just wanted to say thank you to those who have made book recommendations: I've been thinking of suggesting a feminist work at my reading group (where, I suspect, feminism is a dirty work) and there are lots of ideas here.

For the record, dh likes Joni Mitchell, is a feminist, has been a long-term member of two men's groups and isn't boring, drippy or weird. We even laugh and get up to naughty stuff sometimes.

My DH is a feminist too, Lio. In fact he campaigned against the lap dancing club with me, as did many other young men in our area

Regarding SugarMouse's testimony up the thread, I just wanted to day that regardless of SugarMouse's personal circumstances or reasons for working there, the conditions she refers to are shocking and vile. Whoever is working there, (and as someone above, if not SugarMouse then someone else) they should not be treated in this way. I am confused by this attitude - if she had literally had to work there, no other choice, starving children and no social security, would it then have been fine for her to be treated like this? Or would it have been unacceptable in that case? Are some posters saying that if you work there, you deserve what you get?

That's exactly it Elephants, I think it was me who said that if it wasn't SugarMouse being treated this way it would have been someone else. I'm glad you have developed this idea with the suggestion that if there had been no choice (whatever that really means) it was somehow OK for this sort of thing to happen in a sort of ends justifies the means manner.

All this examining the motivation of the people being exploited and badly treated just takes the focus off the exploiters.

aaanyway

thanks for all the recommendations and those who engaged genuinely with the debate.

I notice that a few people would like to see a Women's Rights topic. That's a nice idea worth taking forward.

Harpy don't flatter yourself.

I looked at antimisandry.com because I was interested in what dittany had to say.

Can't help it that I found word for word shit on there that you copy and paste spout.

Dworkin quote with --, stuff about prostrate cancer and 'library apartheid'.

No wonder you don't provide links to your sources.

Am gracious up to a point Harpy but call a fuckwit a fuckwit when the fuckwit in question has been rude and unpleasant enough.

I have come across you before on MN. I'm not a very prolific poster, I tend to lurk through lack of time but I remember you being trounced on more than one thread.

I agree with you blinder that much interest has been shown on this, an other, threads about a Women's Rights/feminism topic.

I have long been surprised that we don't have one already. I guess nobody has ever asked because MN is usually accommodating about these things IME.

Shall we start a topic in site stuff to make our request? Would be better if a few of us joined in and there seem to be plenty here.

I think that's a good idea, beachcomber. I'll certainly lend my support

That's if trolls like me are allowed, of course

yes great idea beachcomber. post the link here when you get around to it...

no, you're a mole not a troll. silly billy.