life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

blinder, would you not report it if that is how you felt afterwards?
sugarmousepink, thank you for asking, I am feeling a bit clearer now than I did before I posted. exuse my ignorance, but what is rl?

Cathpot-

Are you saying that this was 'Rape Lite'? 'Diet Rape'? Not rape rape?

Dawn, I think the consensus of opinion here is that your husband is not a rapist, and I believe that he is not. It was nothing more than a drunken fumble - no more, no less. How absolutely awful for people to bandy that word around so freely. Such an insult to people, not just women, that have been raped.

Leave this thread now. Do not respond to any more of the very black and white life brigade. I wish you and your family well. And let them vilify me - I can take it.

I dunno nancy, slander, demamation, libel? I'm no legal expert but I'd find out what legal recourse I had in law if someone was spreading stuff like this around about me or mine.

Women go to jail for falsely accusing men of rape, whether or not that has to be a formal legal accusation is something I'm not sure about, but I'd make it my business to find out.

ok thanks, will have a look at it.

that last message was for sugarmousepink btw

The problem with these arguments around alcohol is that we are effectively saying that there is no recourse in law to prosecute a criminal act as long as the perpetator is pissed enough. It is saying that drunk men will be allowed to do whatever they like. If you are raped by a drunk man, you have no case. This is plainly wrong. I think that's what Dittany is getting at, rather than implying that this particular man is dangerous. But according to the arguments here, that alcohol has made it impossible for him to control himself or hallucinate that any woman is his wife, according to THOSE arguments, he isn't safe. Which is obviously ridiculous.

Blinder - so it seems! I am absolutely stunned at the prevailing attitude.

Neume - if a man doesn't take the necessary steps (and this could include checking that a woman is awake and sufficiently compis mentis to understand what is occuring) to ensure that the woman he is about to have sex with wants to have sex and is therefore consenting then THAT IS RAPE. The law says so -sorry to shout but I seem to be repeating myself.

I am going to bed before my head explodes.

cathpot-"I can imagine this kind of mistake and I have done all sorts of things whilst horribly drunk which beggar belief the next day. Maybe thats the key here- the husbands story doesnt seem far fetched to me.
I can see however that if you cant get your head round how someone could make this mistake, then the husbands intentions suddenly seem sinister."

I thought the same.

Dawn to answer your question. I probably wouldn't report it because I would be so afraid of hurting you or damaging our friendship. It is entirely plausible to me that she would only decide to raise it years later.
I doubt that it is the sole cause of her unhappiness however and I hope she will be able to forgive it. Knowing that your husband is horrified and upset at the effects of his (let's say) mistake might help her.

Wildsheepchase 'Are you saying that this was 'Rape Lite'? 'Diet Rape'? Not rape rape?'

I would never say 'Rape lite' or 'Diet rape'.

I dont think this situation was rape because I believe rape to be a man intiating or continuing a sex act when the woman is saying no. I would also count as rape a situation where a woman is unable to consent due to drink/drugs/unconsciousness and the man knowingly had sex anyway.

I dont believe that is what happened here, but other posters have pointed out that however I feel about this particular situation the law would call it rape. I believe there is a fundamental moral difference between what I consider rape and this situation. To put it bluntly if this had happened to me, I would put it down to experience as SugarMouse says and it might have marked a turning point to more sensible drinking, I would not be carrying it around 14 years later. If I had been raped, I am sure I would be.

That said I can see that if the friend has come to believe, perhaps belatedly, that actually rather than some drunken incident this man came looking for her and raped her that would impact very negatively on her mental health. Its why I think the suggestions that someone mediates for them so the husband can express his distress at how he has made her feel and his own recollection of the night might go a long way to helping her feel better.

I agree entirely with SugarPinkMouse that it is perfectly possible to lose whole evenings through drink and yet be still walking and talking which is hugely dangerous for everyone as quite honestly I have no idea what consent I have given or not given in the past.

I am taking the OP at facevalue. She sounds like a caring and sensible woman in a truly horrible situation, and I have chosen to believe her version of her husband's character and therefore his story. If I am wrong on either of those counts the story clearly could be told a different way. The is a human story behind the blunt facts here and complicated human personalities, including that of the friend. I think based on what we have been told of this situation demonising the husband is unjustified and doesnt help the OP one bit.

Cathpot - well said.

Cathpot maybe just the experience of waking up to find someone inside her was traumatising enough? She doesn't necessarily have to have a more recent interpretation.
I do think there is a distinction here. The woman was definately raped because she was penetrated without permission.
Is that the same as saying the man is a rapist? Quite possibly not.

blinder, I agree. Rape not by intent, but by definition.

I have read the whole thing. And I have a question, Dawn. Your DH says he remembers the kissing but not the actual penetration. Your friend says there was penetration but has not said anything about the kissing, assuming she doesn't remember much either. So the stories don't quite match up as a lot of people seem to think. Or has the friend metioned the kissing bit?

Does that discrepancy make any sense, if you know what I mean? Could one of them be lying?

That said, it is very very wrong of the friend to go about telling other people that your DH has raped her when she herself cannot remember the whole incident very well. You really ought to let her know in one way or the other that this is not acceptable. I know I would be devastated if someone did similar to my DH, especially when there are children involved and, I am afraid, mud sticks.

How's your DH feeling and behaving at the moment, Dawn?

You have been on this thread almost all Saturday. Does he know you started it? If so, what does he think of the replies?

You are obviously exhausted and stressed - is he being supportive of you?

For the record I was one of the first people that suggested that Dawn take some legal advice as to how to proceed. This lady and her DH have 4 children and i do feel that if this woeman will not go to the Police to make her claims and allows Dawn's Dh to defend himself then randomly telling assorted mutual friends is completely unreasonable.

The tone of this I find particulalrly disturbing from Dittany et al is the assumption that the woman is telling the truth and the man is lying.

I do feel that is Dawn's DH cannot get any resolution legally if this woman does not go to the Police then they should seek some sort of gagging order because the as yet unproved allegations, ones which he cannot defend himself against, could wreck their families life. Please all of you who have joined this thread late go back and read about the other woman's preoccupation with how Dawn is reacting and her assumption that she would leave her dh - again I find it astounding to say the least that this woman could have remained so close to dawn and her Dh for all these years and only now realises it was rape and feels compelled to say something.

I do feel that this woman, if she believes it was rape should go to the Police but honestly, I feel she has found and event to pin her downfall on and she will not have the facts get in the way of that.

This woman does have the right to interpret this as rape - but amazing when apparently she has so little recollection of anything before or after, but she does not have the right to condemn a man without a trial, tweety is right, mud does stick and there are four children involved just in Dawn's house let alone his and her parents and siblings etc etc.

This is an unholy mess and I for one think dawn has tried to be incredibly fair in her approach to this.

sugarmousepink, I have only realised RL is not a real life thread! In rl I have a our mutual friend, mentioned many posts ago, to talk to and my dh, thats it. Was too afraid to talk to anyone at all but after this discussion I feel I would be better informed and prepared to possibly confide in one other good friend. Balloonslayer, DH was away with work and is back today, my 90 year old father has been staying and did enquire why I was on so much but told him it was work for kids school.

tweetymum, DH cannot remember penetration but does remember kissing, he does not deny pen could have happened as he was so out of it. Friend says she has no memory past waking up with him inside her. I have not spoken to friend since hearing her original story so what she told me the first day is all the info I have. One thing that I wanted to ask you all, somenthing that came to me last night. My freind told our mutual friend by email " tom jones raped me 14 years ago". When mutual friend got this email she immediately drove to friends house but that is all friend told mutual friend EVER about the night. The only info mutual friend has of event is from dh and I, even though friend and mf have had many discussions about it they have never discussed the actual event.

I think the poor Woman needs help - she sounds like she is having some kind of breakdown

It is not uncommon to put events to the back of your mind - denial and have them surface years later. The fact that she said to him not to worry about it (paraphrasing) when he apologised means nothing really. She was obviously in shock.

I am so sorry for what yopu are going through dawn