life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

Another assumption dittany? Yet more snippy tone towards the OP. I wouldn't want to answer your snide questions either.

Do you work with rape victims? Where are you getting your information regarding people rallying around accused men? Ime both lives are ruined, even if it comes to nothing- mud sticks. Especially when it is anecdotal amongst a group of 'friends' as in this case.

Dittany:
'It will also help other women to know not to get drunk and then sleep in his vicinity when he's drunk because apparently he can't help himself and isn't expected to. Dawn hasn't answered but I assume he never stopped drinking and getting drunk, despite that he was supposedly mortified by what he did.'

For goodness sake. Are you just fishing now? Because I keep biting and I need to go to bed. Where is there, anywhere in this whole thread, the suggestion that the OPs DH is making a habit of accidently inserting himself into sleeping women? Or even regularly gets blind drunk? Or even usually gets blind drunk? Or has ever ever had any other suggestion of sexual assault?

dittany, then she ought to go to the police and give this man a chance to defend himself against her allegations, because that is all they are at this stage.

If she refuses to do that and continues dishing out her own kind of justice, I wouldn't hesitate in taking legal action against her. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I don't know how many men you know who have been accused of rape, but I just don't buy that it doesn't have much affect on men. If you wanted a more balanced view on this, I'm sure you would know this already.

My friend lost his home, his job, his liberty and his ability to trust after false allegations were made against him. He's still in pieces over 3 years later. There might be support out there, but he can't bring himself to talk about it, he just wants to forget it ever happened but we all know you can't deal with trauma that way.

yes, I did dittany. It needed bringing to your attention how nasty and one sided you were, and you weren't listening to more subtle pointers.

I'm afraid I don't buy the 'oops wrong woman' excuse. I have been all kinds of intoxicated in my green and salad days but I know one body from another.
It obviously needs repeating. If a man penetrates me without my consent, I have been raped. No axe to grind here, but if that is not the definition of rape, what on earth is?
To say this is not rape is to disbelieve the woman, but that is NOT what the OP is asking. She is asking whether sex with a sleeping woman is rape. It is.

I have no idea whether it's rape or not as none of us were in the room.

What I can believe is the drunken fumbling as it's happened in our group of friends. We were all at an engagement party, my DH & I left, male friend of mine including the bride to be all started drinking spirits. My friend got caught shagging the bride to be in the bathroom. He was put to bed. He didn't remember. Got up and was confronted. He has no memory. Nothing at all.

If she was raped would she really have socialised and been a bridemaid? I was sexually assualted by a friend of a friend dand there is no way I would have socialised for 14 years. He makes me feel sick.

I'm pretty curious why everyone is assuming she was asleep. She can't remember anything before or after. She was very drunk. I have on rare occasions been very drunk and done things I couldn't remember afterwards (one time at university I can't remember anything I did for a 5 hour period although apparently I spoke to several people).

In which case it is possible she wasn't asleep when she was penetrated. It does not seem far fetched to suggest OP's DH accidentally got into her bed and got a bit randy, and she sleepily responded and only after a few minutes did they realise what was really going on, and stopped. In which case it is not rape.

In this case to label OP's DH as a rapist and the friend is a rape victim could actually do incredible harm to both of them. I cannot imagine that it is a good thing to believe yourself to be a rape victim when in fact that may not be the case.

I think the mediation idea mentioned earlier is a good one and could help all concerned understand what happened and how to move forwards. Unfortunately legal advice is also a good idea...however much sympathy you may have for the friend it is not right for her to go round saying OP's DH raped her, particularly as there seems to be a lot of doubt about the actual circumstances.

op

I think if your dp had the courage to admit he (to quote another poster) 'fancied a shag with your mate' then i may believe the act was more 'mutual'

as it is I am prone to thinking - he did do as your friend is saying

citing her life experiences subsequent to this and mental health is low imo

the cps don't blink at 14 years - they see much more historical cases all the time

I am sorry for your predicament op - i really am but I would be on my own working through this right now if I were in your shoes

Blinder ' I have been all kinds of intoxicated in my green and salad days but I know one body from another. ' maybe thats where we differ, because I can imagine this kind of mistake and I have done all sorts of things whilst horribly drunk which beggar belief the next day. Maybe thats the key here- the husbands story doesnt seem far fetched to me.

I can see however that if you cant get your head round how someone could make this mistake, then the husbands intentions suddenly seem sinister.

I wonder where the friend is in all this, whether she intially believed it was accidental but has come to believe now it wasnt. It might explain her decision to bring it up.

"There seems to be a belief that it's OK for a man to penetrate an unconcious woman as long as he was drunk and "didn't mean it""
You are distilling and oversimplifying everything that has been said, and the stories as given by the OP to make it fit your opinion.
It almost makes me laugh that you cannot see this.

As far as coping with different opinions goes, doesn't that work both ways?

Ok, dittany, I'm not going to argue with you any further, there's no point. I hope you can try to see a rather wider view of this though, and back off the OP a bit? You are not being kind.

Ok so according to the majority of posters on this thread, if my friend's husband gets into bed with me tonight and attempts to fuck me in my sleep, to the extent that he actually penetrates me, I am to put it down to an honest mistake and ignore the fear, revulsion and anger about having a strange cock shoved inside me without permission? Just so I am clear. Right. Off to bed then.

Dittany I really do not see thepoint in answering your questions anymore. This feels more and more like you are trying to back me into a corner just to get me to say what you want me to say. This is not a court and I am not a defendent. You have very strong opinions about this situation and I really think that it would help your cause much more if you weren't so antagonistic towards everybody. I have noted alot of what you have said but would be more open to your opinion if IT DIDN'T FEEL LIKE YOU WERE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME!! Why have you not answered my questions by the way?

"I think women who have been raped need to feel able to be as open as they need to about what was done to them." Absolutely right, especially if they have actually been raped.

"As ISNT has pointed out however, it's not likely to have much effect on what people think about the man as people generally rally round men accused of rape,". Do they really?

Wubbly - what is this legal action to which you refer? It is near impossible to stop someone spreading lies about you even more so if there might be some truth in the allegations.

Cathpot yes maybe that is the crux of it, if the husband genuinely believed he was with his GF then he had obtained implied consent in that he assumed she would be willing. I find that far fetched as I say. But even so, that still doesn't mean a rape didn't happen to the friend.

they have certainly rallied on this thread Karmann.

and dittany, it's a bit tired trying to turn it around on to me, I'm not going to engage in silly wordplay, it was the OP and your treatment of her that I was concerned about.

Dawntildusk I'm sorry you have to deal with this on top of everything, I hope you can take some strength from the support here, and ignore the less than helpful posts. I'm also sorry I was unable to and thereby started a bun fight.

Dittany-'Cathpot, that's the logical conclusion of all the arguments made on this thread. Take it up with the people making the excuses for a man who climbed into a bed with an unconscious woman and penetrated her. There seems to be a belief that it's OK for a man to penetrate an unconcious woman as long as he was drunk and "didn't mean it". It doesn't do much for the safety of women though.'

It isnt the logical conclusion at all, it is only a sensible comment to make if you a) believe this man deliberately sort out a sleeping woman to rape and b)have reason to believe he is just waiting to strike again

Do you honestly think this is likely to ever happen again with this man? I am not saying and never have said what happened is ok, but can you not see the huge gulf between this incident and other rape scenarios? Really?