life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

wildsheepchase why are you aghast at that? If he thought it was his girlfriend until that point, what has he done wrong there?

Well, my DH would never assume my consent by the virtue of simply being in the same bed as him.

Batty if you cannot understand the difference between someone being held on remand while awaiting trial, and found not guilty,

and

someone being found guilty, sent to prison, and then having their conviction quashed

Then I don't know what else I can say to you.

I also don't understand why you posted a person who has been sent to prison for years for rape, as an example of how false allegations are very harmful.

I suspect we will never understand each other.

oh dittany, there are too many.

This thread is not about whether the OPs husband is a nice man, whether the friend is crazy or how much of a penis is penetration.
Someone pushing their penis into me while I am sleeping is committing rape. Obviously the OP prefers not to fully take the plain fact of this on board, despite several posters offering full and detailed explanations of the law.
If the OP had asked whether we sympathise with all three parties then I would have to agree with her.
But you asked 'is this rape' Dawn. I'm sorry but the answer is 'yes, it is.'

He has acknowledged himself that he did wrong... he tried to talk to the friend the following day as he said he was horrified. Put yourself in this blokes shoes... in a drinken state he got into bed with the wrong woman, tried to have sex with this person ( with whom they were both friends with) was horrified at the time, and now 14 years later is being accused of rape.

The best solution would be for Dawns DP and friend to have a conversation, like they should have done 14 years ago. I don't think the freidn is being at all reasonable by telling other people that Dawns DP is a rapist.

She has said she can't remember alot of that night, how does she know she didn't give consent?

Again, really shitty situation.

Just to Cathpot and her post saying

'In both stories he got into her bed.
In both stories they kissed.
She says he started to penetrate her- he conceeds this might well be true, he cant remember.
In both stories, both say they didnt wanted this to happen.
In both stories he left before it went further.
In both stories he brought it up clearly hugely embarassed and she said to forget it.'

By dawntildusk Fri 05-Mar-10 00:38:08

'My husbands recolletion is only of some kissing and then they both became aware of what was happening after which he left which means that any penetration, if there was any, happened BEFORE the kissing. My friend recollects penetration was for 2 seconds or so and "only the tip" as she put it.'

So any kissing happened AFTER he penetrated her. According to the OP and her husband. So not like you assume where they kissed, then he penetrated her then he stopped. Not like that at all.

I just put this issue to my DH.

He reckons that while he may not be in intent a 'rapist' SHE has still been raped.

Whaddyareckon?

dittany, do you really think that it's okay for this friend to tell all and sundry that she was raped by this man and to give his name?

wildsheep, would he wake you up first and ask you if you want sex then?
Honest question, mine wouldn't and I like it that way, it's a lovely way to wake up! He would stop if I said no though, and I don't understand what is wrong with that in your eyes?

Yes I think that is clear cut wildsheep.

And on that note, I am off to bed.

OP I am really sorry you are having to deal with this situation.

Sorry ISNT, I misread my first quote... I read it 'imagine the thought of...'

He was still held in prison for 10 weeks. Imagine if your DP was in prison for 10 weeks, even if it was 'just' on remand.

WildSheepChase I also read the opening post and subsequent info gioven out to my DP and he said yes very difficult but it's rape, it doesn't matter what the intention was from the man it is rape to have sex with a woman without her consent. I've never been in this sitiuation, luckily never been raped so no axe to grind no personal history but I think definitely rape.

"I certainly don't think Dawn should be considering any kind of legal action to stop her friend talking about the rape."

Why the hell not?? If, IF these allegations are proven to be false, being already branded a rapist can do so much damage to a persons, and their families, lives!

Yes, he would. I also wouldn't get him up and start riding while he was asleep either. it's just the way we are. I'm sure we have our own quirks others might raise an eyebrow at...

But, with the greatest respect, what you like to wake up to isn't the same as the issue the OP is discussing.

It's not wrong at all in my eyes- but you're two adults in a relationship with clear boundaries set. The situation the OP describes took place between two people where that was clearly not the case- regardless of intent.

Do you think this man should go to prison Dittany?

I apologise, I thought I read that there had been acknowledged fumbling, but my main point is the stories are essentially the same- she is not saying he refused to stop the critical issue is- did he intend to start.

I think Poppity nailed my main concern when she said
'All of your comments make the huge assumption that OPs DH intended rape. That he went into that room intentionally with the purpose of having sex with her, and then ran off ony because she woke.
You can't dress that up any other way, you are making an assumption.'
For me that assumption doesnt seem to be the most likely one given all the other circumstances- the DH's reaction straight after, his reaction with OP, the friend's behaviour in the intervening 14 years.

Of course its not imposible that the OP's husband is lying through his teeth and had sort out the friend on purpose and hoped to make it through sex before she woke up, but it doesnt just doesnt seem to be the most likely thing based on the other evidence. Its the rush to accuse him of lying I find unsettling and the accusation that if you think he might be telling the truth that you somehow excuse rapists.

Also- if Nancydrewrocks is right that
'What we can say is that in law, if a man has sex without consent or is reckless as to whether he has obtained consent then he is guilty of rape. A sleeping, comotose or otherwise incapacitated woman cannot give consent. If a man starts to have sex with a woman who is asleep he has not obtained consent. Even if he stops the second she wakes up and objects he has still in law committed a rape.'
then the OPs husband IS guilty of rape regardless of intent, by law- do we think if he is telling the truth and it was not his intent he should be charged with rape?

Incidently do we know if the friend believed he intend to rape her and ran off last minute, or if she accepts he got into bed accidently etc? If she believes he actively set out to rape her then she needs to go to the police, if she doesnt what is she doing?

Batty where does the op say her dh thought he was getting into bed with her? I also can't find the bit where the op says the woman says she was kissing the man?

Trouble is rapists lie. I have met many alleged and covicted rapists and it is one thing they all had in common.

Dittany - Dawn has said that her DP has never got that drunk since.

dinnity, at the moment I have no reason to take legal action against my friend and have no desire to however if my dh were to lose his job due to her telling all and sundry that he is a rapist then who knows what I would do? It is different if he were charged and found guilty in a court of law, then she could tell anybody she liked. The feeling that we have no control whatsoever over who knows is quite unbearable. Walking into a room and wondering who here thinks my husband is a rapist? am sure you will disagree that he has any rights as you have made up your mind he is a rapist.

By dawntildusk Sat 06-Mar-10 22:13:12
Sugarmousepink, battykoda, He knows he was carried to bed by myself and my brother as my brother teased him about it next day. He and I were in bed and he got out of bed and somehow ended up in her bed. He assumes it was after taking a piss and went back to the wrong room. he cannot remember and is only assuming that is what happened. Yes I did ask him (1000 times) why he did not tell me about it and he just said he was mortified by it.