life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

batty "No ISNT, but I would have realised that I wasn't in a state to be clear and wouldn't regard it as rape especially if once I'd made myself clear that I was not consenting he got off me"

I was wondering what would happen in your hypothetical situation if the person wasn't in a position to "make themselves clear", at what point to your mind it would turn from a harmless mistake (penetration of the vagina) into something different. If at all.

I don't for one moment think having sex with a sleeping woman is OK. But this sounds as if everyone present was too plastered to know what was going on. That happens.

But if you think about it... he didn't give his consent to having sex with this women... he was drunk and went into the wrong room, thought she was his girlfriend??

"situation if the person wasn't in a position to "make themselves clear"

THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE THOUGH, THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT!!

women are more likely to be sexually assaulted when their guards are down from drugs/ alcohol.

Am also interested to hear what people think if she had stayed asleep throughout- would that be rape? Would he have told her when he realised? "oh sorry I put my penis inside you last night, it was a mistake. "

motherlovebone, now now I have heard it all. What kind of sad person wuld post a fictitious story like this and then spend hours and hours answering/asking questions about it? If you thought I was one of those people why did you continue to contribute?

Batty, are you suggesting HE was a victim of a 'sexual mistake' too? Even though HE was the one doing the penetrating?

"Katie Davis's allegation condemned an innocent man, Frank Chisholm, 24, to 10 weeks in an East Sussex jail after he was charged with rape in St Leonards."

Is it me that's misunderstanding this...?

Everyone was too plastered to know what was going on...
what about the one who is saying she was raped?

WildSheepChase.

He was plastered, she was plastered, he went into the wrong room, tried to have sex with the wrong person, once the mistake was realised, he left. If had intentionally gone in to rape her, why would he stop when she said no??

Horrid situation for everyone concerned.

Dawn, i was relaying the male perspective that you asked for.

Rape is having sex with a woman WITHOUT HER CONSENT. Whether his INTENT was to 'rape' or not, he did so when he put his erect penis into her vagina without her consent.

Read through the first 1/3rd of the thread and I have to say I would class this as rape. I know that is not what the OP wants to hear but still, to me this is rape.

Rape is having sex with a women or man...

But how do we know there wasn't intial consent. She has said she can't remember much, he has said there was kissing and fondling beforehand.

Dittany, I keep trying to formulate a reply to your posts and I dont really know if its worth it because I dont think you are listening. There are lots of considered posts on here which show sympathy for all 3 parties, OP,her DH and the woman because this is a messy, drunken, hurtful, sordid and entirely plausible human situation.

You say 'rape is black and white-its sex without consent' I presume you are arguing that there is no consent from her because as far as we know, she was asleep- fair enough-but even if you dont believe the DHs story about how he came to be in the bed intiating sex, as soon as the woman clearly withdrew her consent, he left. And there is no dispute about that from either party. She is absolutely NOT saying 'I woke up he was inside me, I shouted for him to stop and he carried on'. In fact this is probably the saving grace for the OP that their stories do, booze permitting, coincide.

In both stories he got into her bed.
In both stories they kissed.
She says he started to penetrate her- he conceeds this might well be true, he cant remember.
In both stories, both say they didnt wanted this to happen.
In both stories he left before it went further.
In both stories he brought it up clearly hugely embarassed and she said to forget it.

Even if we take a black and white view of the definition of rape, this isnt it. If they were telling two different stories then it would be justifiable to be so cynical about the OPs husband, but they aren't. The whole point is they were blind drunk- its entirely plausible that DH would have ended up in the wrong bed- its entirely plausible that he would have then started to intiate sex with the woman in it, without a clear idea of who she was. Blind drunk is blind drunk- dear god I have mistaken a friend's mums dressing table for a toilet and then later that evening briefly 'come round' having sex with someone and then blanked out again. Extreme drunkeness is very horrid actually and lots of us on this board have stories to tell as a result of it.

Incidently no matter how drunk he was if she had said no and he had carried on it would have been rape, but to call anyone who sympathises with the man here an apologist for rapists as some one earlier did is pretty unpleasant.

I totally knew you would correct me on the 'man' bit, just to deflect a little bit.

I'm just a bit aghast at the amount of women prepared to um and ah and say 'oh well, he stopped when she said no'.

Batty yes you are misunderstanding that case.

The man was accused and held on remand pending his trial.

At his trial he was found not guilty.

There was no miscarriage of justice, no convictions were quashed.

The girl who had made the false accusation was sent to prison.

None of us know what happened as we weren't there so it is impossible to know exactly what happened and therefore whether given the particular set of circumstances that existed at the time rape occurred.

What we can say is that in law, if a man has sex without consent or is reckless as to whether he has obtained consent then he is guilty of rape. A sleeping, comotose or otherwise incapacitated woman cannot give consent. If a man starts to have sex with a woman who is asleep he has not obtained consent. Even if he stops the second she wakes up and objects he has still in law committed a rape.

He is guilty of rape in the above circumstances if only a mm of his penis entered the vagina for only a second.

His drunkeness is irrelevant and does not effect the mens rea of the crime. He may not have wanted to rape the woman when he was sober but if he did when he was drunk he cannot use any perceived lack of intent due to drunkeness as a defence.

This is how the law stands. Of course jurys can be fickle and as we all know many alleged rapists are not convicted, due to the nature of the system we can never know why a particular man is found not guilty but this thread gives a very interesting insight.

I feel I have to ask dittany, why are you responding so angrily towards the OP?

I haven't posted here yet, but have been following and dittany, your tone is really nasty. I know from other threads that you will deny this, so it's fairly pointless me saying anything, but I just felt I had to. Do you not feel you could deal with the OP more sensitively in spite of your conflicting opinions? Other posters have also pointed out that she hasn't done anything to deserve your manner with her.

Are you aware of how you take things out of context and twist them to suit your version(and it is a version, it is not The Truth)

All of your comments make the huge assumption that OPs DH intended rape. That he went into that room intentionally with the purpose of having sex with her, and then ran off ony because she woke.
You can't dress that up any other way, you are making an assumption.

OP, I hope it all works out for you. I have no idea what to 'assume'. I would take heart in the fact that she has chosen to remain close friends for all these years, despite it having been acknowledged and apologised for between them shortly afterwards. I cannot imagine how this would be possible for her if it has ruined her life in the way she is now saying.

I do not wish to be a 'female apologist for rape', but neither do I want to be dragged along on the wimmin-don't-have-to-stand-for-this man bashing rally, thank you. It is possible just to have some common sense and realise that with excessive drinking, trouble can occur- with both sexes ffs- I can only assume some of you have never been paralytic.

Dittany, sorry to aim this at you particularly, it has just upset me to read the poor OP's worried posts, followed by a fair amount of vitriol and nasty opinion. This isn't AIBU.

Cathpot your recounting of the stories is not how I understand it. From the OP:

"She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left."

That is very different to the story that you have related above.

But he spent 10 weeks in prison?

SMP - OP has said her DP thought he was gettign into bed with her(OP)

I wasn't calling EVERYBODY who sympathised with the man in this case a female apologist. Just said there was nothing worse.

I had also expressed my sympathy for EVERYONE involved- especially the OP- in my first post on this thread.

It's not man-bashing to find dismissal of rape difficult.

Poppity in fairness there are people as vocal in saying that the DH definitely didn't do anything wrong, as Dittany is saying that he did. In fact there are more people saying that he definitely didn't do anythign wrong.

How anyone can be sure of that is beyond me.