life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

Read and heard even

tarty, you can't say it isn't rape though with only one side of the story. It may well be rape - it isn't always obviously violent. It also incorporates someone saying 'no' or penetrating someone when they aren't aware what is happening. I do think the waters are muddied when both parties are totally and utterly slaughtered but if she didn't consent, then it's rape and she's entitled to call it so.

I feel for you dawn as I'm sure the road ahead won't be an easy one. It sounds as though she isn't pursuing it via the police which makes it harder for your dh in a way as he has no opportunity to put his side of the story across in an independent forum. Which is why legal advice has been suggested on the thread and I hope you do get some.

motherlovebone, If I had wanted only supportive posts I would not have been stupid enough to put up the original post. I am happy to take on board everybodys opinion, whether is agrees wit mine or not. You have posted opinions which have clashed with mine but I respect that and I have read and taken on board ALL of the posts, believe me but there comes a point where I feel like dittany has some agenda here other then participating in this disussion, maybe I am being oversensitive.

we were given both sides of the story and they were the same from both parties - it is a mater of interpretation and my judgement, given the information is that it is not rape.

This woman may be entitled to call it so but she is not entitiled to go around telling people but not approaching the poilce and letting dawn's h have any way of defending himself.

At no point have i suggested that rape needs to be done violently, but it is a violent act in itself fucking someone against their will whether you strike them or not or whether they struggle or not.

This woman withdrew her consent explicity when I imagine they were just having a hugely drunken fumble and when she did he stopped and left - not rape, not by any measure is that rape.

yes, it's your interpretation and judgement but it may not be others and it isn't hers

I think the fact that she shouted at him is key. I can't think of consensual sex where you'd shout at someone to get out tbh.

Either way, what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what we think. She thinks it's rape and dawn and her dh will have to take steps to try and counter her accusations in public, even if that means at some stage having a word with the police.

foxinsocks that is exactly how we are feeling. There is no opportunity to put his side of the story across, at least in court he could answer these questions for himself but at the moment he has been accused of one of the most horrific crimes possible, friend needed to "confront" (her words someone about it and chose me, and that's it! where ar we expected to go from here? I am seeking legal advice and will hopefully not be told to "sit tight and wait to see what she does" as don't think I could spend my life looking over my shoulder and waiting.

Why has she waited 14 years to say anything?

This sounds strange, what has triggered her saying this now? Has she thought it an embarassing drunken episode all these years then changed her mind?
If she can't remember the lead up, how does she not know whether she actually said "come up to my room in 10 minutes?"

For you and your feelings toward DH, the fact that she told him to go and he WENT shows he is a nice man underneath. He did not carry on, and he realised she was saying no and did not say any of this "oh really you mean yes". So I would say your DH is a good H and dad and there are many many men who have done worse things than that.

I do wonder why your friend is dragging this all up now.

TBH I really wouldn't worry about his rep, as I said earlier the people I know in RL who have said they have been raped have not been believed and have in fact been roundly condemned.

I am sure that the majority of people will not believe her - as this thread demonstrates.

I also don't understand how people can be absolutely sure that this woman wasn't raped when none of us were there

foxinsocks, Just to clarify, she says she shouted at him as soon as she realised what was happening, he disagrees there was any shouting. The house was full of people and I think shouting would have been heard. He remembers kissing her and they both realised oh shit what is going on and he left. Maybe that is the panic that she remembers but It is very difficult as she remembers nothing else. In anybody's experience does recall ever improve in these situations or is she unlikely ever to remember? she is going to regular counselling.

It's not unusual for a woman who has been raped or abused to only come to terms with it/ believe it happened/ remember it many years later. By which point it is harder to get anyone to believe them.

Dawntildusk - you know your DH and your friend better than anyone. Follow your gut instincts about this - theoretical arguments about exactly how 'rape' is defined are useless in this situation I think. It is perfectly possible for your husband and friend to have to completely different versions of the reality of what happened and for both versions to be 'valid' on some level. If in your heart of hearts you trust your husband and know that he is not capable of being a 'rapist' then go with that. At the same time you probably feel worried for your friend - but she is acting extremely destructively and unfairly by putting the burden of this whole thing onto you. How can she justify putting you in such an intolerable situation? Whatever she feels happened, it was NOT your fault or responsiblity. How dare she drag you in like this? That is extremely disturbed behaviour especially in the context of what you've said about her socialising with you and your DH over the last 14 yrs. If she truly believes her own version of events she should have confronted your husband or gone to the police - NOT YOU.

I don't know dawn, it's difficult because it's all conjecture on our part.

In my experience, and it's only my opinion based on my experience, is that being drunk (as a woman) in this situation leads to more confusion which can lead to you feeling more taken advantage of because you're in such a state yourself (and pretty incapacitated which can make you feel more vulnerable). That's no excuse for what might have happened to her but I wonder if you can understand what I mean.

The fact that she's had a breakdown might mean she's struggling with more than this in her life and may well be contributing to the way she's feeling.

Again, this doesn't help you in knowing what next steps to take because if she's in a vulnerable place, you have to be very careful what you do in case you make her feel worse. If she hadn't had a breakdown, I'd suggest you go back and speak to her but I'm not sure that's the best route if she's a bit unstable at the moment.

Dawn, not sure what you are expecting from your legal advice? If you ask a legal question, you will get a legal answer, and not sure that's what you want. Do you want reassurance that it wasn't rape? Or do you want advice about the best way forward?

If it was me in the same situation, I would get in touch with an accredited mediator and request joint mediation with your friend, you and your DH to discuss the best way forward. It may be that she would like an apology, and the risk being that if you try and discuss it with her, it could come across as trying to evade due process. Seems to me though that even if she did wish to assert her legal rights, then the fact that you attempted mediation wouldn't necessarily prevent that either.

ilovemydog, that sounds interesting. I suppose I was hoping that a solicitor would be able to advise the best way forward, yes.

Dawn, I have watched this post with interest and only feel now that I can comment. This woman was not raped. The word has been used with akin to the word bullying - it's almost a fashion statement.

Kissing went on, that is not a rapist. Dittany appears to be so black and white - life is not like that, it is grey. There are 3 sides to every story. His version, her version and somewhere in the middle the truth. This was no more than a drunken fumble. Get a grip those of you who scream rape at something like this. Flame me all you like.

"it's almost a fashion statement. "

I think you need to explain that appallingly ignorant comment.

On second thoughts, don't bother as I am not sure I want to hear any more of what you have to say. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about; "Kissing went on - that is not a rapist"

I know this is mumsnet but am sure there are men online too. I would be really interested to hear a mans perspective on this too. Dh spoke to his friend about this (no names or any other info that could lead her to be identified) and he was quite dismissive of it. Have any of you discussed this with your other halfs?

Absolutely no ignorance. Let's apply a name tag to everything shall we? Re-read what has been said. Then decide.

Think it was legal advice about the situation and the options available. Plus didn't the friend discuss it with the OP rather than her DH?

There was a man on board PRH47. He had a valid point but was cut down by the scream rape brigade.

OP not sure if this site might be able to offer some guidance.

I've only had a quick look but it seems to cover things from both points of view and might be of some use?

Dittany, I have no intention of taking legal action against my friend. The best outcome to this mess would be that my friend recovers from her breakdown and moves forward and rebuilds her life. Then at least there would be some point to her telling me in the first place. Of course there is also the chance that she does not recover and continues to spiral. If she decides to tell her story to her drinking mates, or dh workmates or anybody else for that matter then I would like to know what our options are legally. I am asking people who have more experience of these situations for their thoughts. For instance, if you were me what woud you do? if you were my friend what would you do? if you were my husband what would you do?