life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

Very hard for the OP to know what to do.... It does sound like he went into a woman's bedroom and tried to have sex wiht her while she was asleep. This is WRONG.

But, if he has been a good husband to the OP for 15 years and not done anything else wrong, I think I would find it hard to end the marriage.....

"the vast majority of people lying about rape are rapists, not victims."

very true.

well if i think all men are rapists, then it must just be all men except Dawns DH, cause i dont believe he raped anyone.

PS, i also believe that my FH isnt a rapist, otherwise we wouldnt be getting married next month. So all men but these two. And probably my dad too.

OP, the whole discussion is about whether or not the woman was raped. However, I'm just wondering how you personally feel about the fact that your then DP and friend were kissing each other, he put her penis inside her, and they continued to be 'close' for all these years, knowing they had been intimate (whether 'conscious' or otherwise)? How does that make you feel as a wife and friend? This is all about her and him but I'm worried about you. She's acting like a spurned lover at the end of an affair and he is being too tolerant of her. It makes me for you. Take care.

"However rape is the only crime where most people assume the victim is lying"

Dittany, that statement does sound shocking but it could be argued that the legal status of 'innocent until proven guilty' leaves no alternative.

In a case of rape where it comes to down to the issue of consent and one person's word against another's, a women would have to be assumed to be lying (or mistaken?) until it is proven that the defendent is?

I also think this is not rape.

According to the OP her friend has no recollection of what happened leading up to or immediately after the event. So why does she think she was raped? She cannot remember whether she consented or not. I cannot see a rape conviction ever being secured in these circumstances.

So irrespective of whether OP's DH is a self-serving liar it is slanderous to go round accusing him of being a rapist.

On top of that, the friend has happily socialised with OP and her DH for the 14 years, but is now apparently using this alleged incident as the reason for her breakdown...in spite of her other self-destructive behaviours.

OP - I hope you get some good legal advice and are able to resolve this. Your friend sounds very troubled, and it is probably damaging for her as well to be talking about this incident to various third parties rather than seeking professional help.

I don;t think the innocent til proven guilty thing means that all people who claim to be victims of crime are assumed to be liars surely?

When someone's bicycle is stolen people don't go around saying "well he's obviously lying" until such time as a conviction is secured

When I was mugged the police believed me, as did my family and friends. They didn't assume that I must be lying as no-one had been caught. even more

But here the woman is claiming to be a victim of rape when she apparently can't actually remember what happened.

How can anyone be sure a crime took place in these circumstances? And surely if the situation is unlikely to result in a conviction and the woman herself cannot remember what happened, she should not be trying to disrupt the OP's marriage and slander her DH.

Surely the man has rights too - the right not to have his otherwise good name sullied by such damaging and ultimately tenuous allegations.

Dittant victims do dsoemtimes lie actually, rartely I would agree but there's a woman ehre in prison for making up rapes and stalkers: I would suspect that men lie fair more but woman dont lie men do is crap. Woman and men can also misinterpret events and think that consent is there, and suchlike., It can happen. Regardless, you seem angry with OP and I dont see she is any way to blame for this. I have huge sympathy with her in fact,as it seems she has an awful lot to lose and no blame whatsoever regardless of which version of events is true.

perhaps Dittany you can explain to me how the woman could kiss and cuddle if asleep? I dont understand that.

Innocent until proven guilty- I think perhaps a good use of that is to not shout guiulty! At someoones DP (not even them) until the facts are clar: OP is innocent, whatever the outcome.

No, not whether they agreed to sex, but can imagine a scenario where someone was so out of it that they did wander into the wrong bedroom, cuddle up to someone who they thought was their wife etc. It's plausible.

The victim's account of events and the OP's DH are exactly the same, and he doesn't deny the possibility of penetration, so don't think he is discounting her version of events.

I don't think she should be discussing it with friends though.

I think it's very easy to have a situation like this and then over time, you arrive at a different conclusion as to what happened. Don't forget, she was also very pissed at the time so the reality of the situation may only have dawned on her at a later time.

People block experiences out and then something happens that makes you put it in perspective.

Fwiw, I had a v v v similar thing happen to me on a business trip. It was only at a much later date that I actually used the r word.

Either way, no matter what your husband says, she feels she was raped and I agree with everyone on this thread who has told you to seek legal advice. I would do, straight away. Nobody knows who is right or wrong - what you do know is that someone has made this allegation against your husband and you must go and seek legal representation now.

You see I can't imagine this at all.

When I have been in situations like this, where people have been v drunk and it's all a bit up in the air what's going on, there has always been a moment of clarity between the people as to what is going on, a moment of eye contact with understanding. Then things move on from groping to something more serious.

The fact he got his penis inside her before things were stopped, to me means that either they knew what they were doing and changed their minds, or she came to and told him to get stuffed.

The only thing we know for sure is that he was had to leave. Which to me would imply that what was going on wasn't consensual IYSWIM.

Agree though who can say what really happened. Which is the perennial problem with this sort of situation. None of us were there.

Jesus dittany you must have had a horrible experience and I feel for you. I don't really see the point in engaging any further with you though as you seem to be completly misreading posts and I can amost see the venom in your words. There was no mention of me "legally bullying" anybody but purely seeking legal advice so I am well informed about rights etc. and of course to protect my kids from all this. If my Dh does decide to talk to the police do you have a problem with him informing himself beforehand bout his rights? I also think you seem quite adept at jumping on and twisting other peoples opinions but avoid all the questions I have put to you. You have a very one sided outlook whereas I have been trying to see this from both sides. Some of the ladies who have been through v v similar experiences have also been attacked by you, is that giving respect to people who, in your opinion, have been raped?

nattiecake I meant to say earlier I am so sorry for what happened to you.

Vivia, tbh I never thought of it as "being unfaithful" as there was no planning or thought put into it, in my opinion. I did ask friend the day she told me did my dh ever show any interest in her sexually either before or after the night and she said no I also asked him did he ever fancy her, even before we were together and I really believe that he did not. His reaction was to this accusation has been to talk constantly about it with me and his best friend and has asked me if I think he should contact her but I told him under no circumstances should he. I see your point though about how they are both acting but definitely know nothing has been going on between them. I do know this, there is not a chance in hell that this is going to end my marriage, no matter what happens.

Dittany, fwiw, I've read the thread and think you've made consistently good points. I agree with you 100%.

It's an awful situation and I hope it is resolved for you soon Dawn. I cannot begin to imagine how you are feeling.

Dittany - i have to agree with dawn, i think she has been remarkably even handed about this very difficult and emotive situation. She hasn't been unkind or unfair to her friend and taking legal advice, which I have advocated too is just sensible when someone is going around telling random people and children are in the picture it is sensible to protect the family and ask for help as to where to go next with this situation.

And agree also that you sound quite venemous, that may be from personal experience, for which i am sorry but i too have related a similar experience here and it was not rape, as this situation is not rape.

Dittay, I did not rape anyone. Is it ok with you if I get legal advice?

Venom in Dittanys words

Sorry you havent heard read what you want to OP.