Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

good luck grace you are doing well, and keep talking! It is ALWAYS worth the effort

I haven't had time to read this whole thread but from the bits I have read you have been through alot with immense dignity.

I keep thinking what is the point of posting but I have decided to anyway.

My ex moved out without any argument but his motives are now becoming clear. It was just too much work looking after our kids and he wnted a break. He's taken the gloves off now, he will not babysit if I want to go out and have fun. I ws due to go out with women tomorrow and he's said he won't look after the kids at all. I've been stuck in the house for about 7 years now - he likes it best when I am alone and miserable so he can control me better, and he always make me feel like shit about myself .

Anyway just felt like sharing. I'm quite worried what is going to happen as he is turning nasty very fast here.

Hello,

I am going through breaking free and ending a 13 year relationship with what I now understand to be with someone with this personality type. I have come close so many times before, but always get reeled back in to living a life that I had become conditioned to accepting was all about him.

My strength has been renewed by reading stories on this forum and links to details on narcisstic personality disorder, which described perfectly all the things I knew were wrong in my relationship, but I never fully understood. I had become so downtrodden and lacked trust in my own judgement and senses.

Sadly I am still very attracted to him and feel I am loosing the love of my life and carrying the guilt of parting my 2 boys from their father. But through reading your posts I can now see my feelings for what they are and am determined to break the cycle.

I have been through hell, particularly this last four years. It has been 3 weeks since I made it clear it was over, he is still living here at the moment and it has been a rollercoaster of emotions and hours of torment and abuse.

I keep coming back here, as nobody in real life really understands the full impact of ending such a relationship and perhaps think I am over reacting to his threats and behaviour, but I know his driving force is to destroy me and turn everyone against me.

He has brainwashed all of his friends/family into thinking I am a crazy money grabbing heartless bit**, for splitting up our family. Which he smugly reminds me of almost daily! That they can all see me for what I am.

It is so painful as I think the world of them all, but I know how charming and convincing he is, so I have resigned myself to keeping quiet and accepting the disapproving glances and detachment from people I care for and respect so much. As any details of my side of the story would add fuel to the fire and re affirm his account of what a bit** I am.

I really feel for you all going through a similar situation, I feel like I am living in my own bubble at the moment and feel so detached from other peoples stories of normal lives. But I know it will get better and I wanted to thank you all for giving me strength and opening my eyes to all the things that were happening that I didn't understand. x

Hello Trina. Congratulations on your courage, and welcome Can't stop but I wanted to acknowledge your post. Is there any way to get yourself away from him (or, preferably, him away from you) for a while? As you're still together - you know he'll keep twisting the knife, don't you?

Has he ever hurt you (even 'by accident') or been violent towards others? If he believes you this time, he may react very fiercely. Please ring Women's Aid, if you haven't already, for knowledgeable advice. To help you with your own de-programming, see if there's a Freedom Programme near you.
Good luck, and do keep posting!

bsu, thank you! I get myself to sleep last night by thinking "I did it with dignity"! You are doing well, it's a very taxing process. Put yourself and the kids first - and do what's necessary. For all I regret losing my lovely flat, nice life and enormous credit facility ... I prefer this poverty (and even my depression) to the constant self-contortions I went through in order to keep them.
Stay safe. x

Thanks Grace xx

I would like to tell some of my story, as I feel I need to get it out there and it may hopefully help others, as your stories helped me.

I do not feel like it at the moment, but I do know that I am in a very fortunate position. I had just bought my first house 13 years ago a few months before we met. I offered him the opportunity of having his name on the mortgage just after our first son was born, in return for greater financial support.
He declined as he felt it was too much of a commitment at the time. We bought a joint house 4 years ago, at which time I protected the majority of my previous equity with a deed of trust, as I had a niggling doubt he had pushed for the house move as he was intent on cashing in on the equity, thank goodness, I did!!

As all the niggles I had about his personality escalated when we moved in here, he became more controlling and nasty, especially when I found out I was expecting my 2nd son (he was planned and concieved before we moved in to the new house, during a prolonged honeymoon period).

I was forcefully told to have an abortion for 2 months at least, I had to endure listening to him telling our friends it was what he wanted, as it was all a big mistake. He threatened me with leaving and selling our house if I didn't comply.
I spent weeks keeping out of his way in the dining room, while he played on his PS3, drank beer and ignored me, I had to move out with my 5 year old son and sleep on my Mums bedroom floor as it all got too much. Of course Mr Charming and sweetness eventually returned, following on from me getting legal advice and armed with the knowledge that I could get an occupation order, he reeled me back in.

I muddled through my pregnancy and having my 2nd son,it was not all bad, when not being ignored and controlled, he did look after me very well practically and was very attentive when I complied.

During this time I carried on studying at nightschool and taking my A level exams, something which he tolerated through gritted teeth, I could feel the seething inside,which came out in the heat of an argument with such comments like 'studying will get you nowhere, it's just an excuse to get out of the washing up'. He covered it up as a jokey comment but it went much deeper than that.

I passed my exams with top marks and this gave me the confidence to go for a completely new career, he was away on business at the time I applied for my new job (after being in the same job with little progression since school).

Again I could feel the inner seething as I got through to the interview and successfully got the job. For example telling me to get my arse back home as I dared to go out for a coffee after my interview went well.

My new job gave me more self esteem and being around like minded people with like minded values, made me more assertive and intolerant to his terrible behaviour.

Much, much more has happened. Including other women,daily heavy drinking, emotional and verbal abuse. Yes he has hurt me physically occasionaly,just accidental nudges, shoving etc....which was of course down to me over reacting and creating a drama, throwing myself on the floor! I could never escape as the house was in joint names and he used this all the time to control everything.

The thing that made me snap was seeing his terrible behaviour now being geared towards my eldest son, I know this will continue, hence I started putting things in place.

I saved enough money to buy him out, got a sole mortgage offer, cancelled my name off the family holiday we have booked and confronted him with all this 3 weeks ago.

I know he had complete confidence in his control over me, enough so to think I would go not through with it and would not have the resources or strength to do so.
I also know he was hoping to call my bluff by signing the mortgage papers, he taunted me after signing them,telling me I was loosing everything and would end up back on the council estate without him, unless I did the sensible thing.

He gave me the option of having the pleasure of keeping living with him and taking away all mine and the kids pain, if I agreed to sign all the equity from my first house into joint names. Something he demanded quite frequently (I always made it clear I would only ever do this if we were to be truly settled and married)

Needless to say I returned the signed papers, much to his frustration and disbelief and the house will be in my name next Friday at which point I will finally feel safe and secure in my own home.

He has been verbally abusive this week and yes fierce!! but I am certain he would not get physical with me, as this would invalidate his claims of my madness and he knows I would have any such behaviour recorded against him.

Ohhh,I am so sorry for the essay. I am quite sure not many people would have read through all of this. but it's so liberating to get it all out. I have spent years blaming myself for being such a horrible person that I drove him to treat me so badly, it is like a weight has been lifted now. I am not perfect by any means, but I finally accept that I did not deserve any of this.

I hope you are all keeping strong, thanks so much for listening xx

Wow TRINA!...you are brave and strong....How amazing that you have seen through this, believed yourself deep down, and taken steps to stop it, so brilliantly!!!

I am in awe!

Thanks x

I didn't see through any of this until very recently,thanks to this thread/links. I blamed myself for being moody,intolerant and took all of his opinions of me and threats of how bad my life would be without him on board. If I hadn't of found this thread, I probably would have crumbled again.

I know he will still be controlling for many years ahead, I feel like he owns me. I am so lucky at least I can lock the door on some of it, in the weeks ahead. It could have been so different if we had been married, if I hadn't of had my own house before, I don't think I would have ever escaped then. I think my life would have been over.

I am so thankful to you all on this thread x

Thank you,Trina for such an inspiring post!

You are amazing and should be very proud of your strength and self esteem.

He has a big shock coming!

Your future will go on getting better - if you can get this far despite what he has put you through,imagine what you are capable of without all that!

Respect to you! Please keep posting xx

Bless you, I really do not have any self esteem left at the moment. I am at rock bottom and so very worn down I don't know who or what I am anymore, I just knew it was now or never. I feel dazed, confused, deeply heartbroken, I'm in so so much pain and distress, I really don't feel strong at all.

His battle for control over the house has finished, but he has swiftly moved on to wanting joint custody of the kids, despite telling me last week he may move abroad now.

This came after he found he could pay less maintenance this way, he wants them over night 3 times a week, but he wants to drop them off first thing in the morning so 'I can sort them out'. It makes me sick, I explained it was out of the question with his drink problem and his lack of responsibility. He struggles getting himself up and ready in the morning!

He said that would stop/change when he didn't have to put up with me and is now telling everyone I am keeping him from proper access with the children, as well as making him homeless and stealing all his money. ARghh! No win situation as ever.

This is all not true btw, I encouraged him to see the children as often as possible. I would never stop that and I have paid him enough money out to set up a new home again, even though legally I didn't have to pay him a penny and left myself struggling financially to do this.

I need to keep reminding myself, I am a reasonable person, I am!!

Does it ever stop, when you have ties with such a man?

Hi Trina. Agree wholeheartedly with the other posters in saying that you have really been so brave and strong to get yourself out of the clutches of this man.

May I make a few suggestions? Firstly, look after yourself physically and emotionally right now. Treat yourself, soothe yourself, try not to let your mind run itself ragged when you get into bed. Make sure you get enough sleep and eat well. If you are really distressed your GP can help you with this - take all the support and help you can get.

Have you contacted your local Womens Aid branch yet? You should as they will be able to support and advise you.

Your ex cannot bully you into access arrangements. You say he has a drink problem and struggles to get himself up let alone DC. You need to see a solicitor about this and/or get some advice from Women's Aid. He does not control you anymore - you are still afraid of him though naturally and of what he may try to do. If he has said that he intends to go abroad - even if this is an idle threat - then you can realistically feel that he may try to take the DC abroad? Discuss this too with a solicitor. He may have shot himself royally in the foot by saying this.

Find the DC's poassports if they have them and keep them in a safe place.

This is the most difficult time. People like this man can get nasty in the immediate aftermath but there is a strong chance he may give up easily in the end (they are lazy self-obsessed bastards) and cause you less grief as time moves and and/or he finds another partner/victim.

Do not be too bothered by what he tells friends etc. Really, I know this is hard, but he can shit-stir as much as he likes. Its just shit-sitrring and your real friends won't listen anyway.

Of course you have been reasonable - you sound worn down and exhausted by living with this sort of chaos. You set him up in antother home??? Are you Saint Trina??

It does get better. It does get easier and you will come to agreements bit by bit. You must have amazing reserves of strength to get yourself up and out of his life. This strength will serve you well but you need to look after yourself.

I hope you ghave family and friends to support you?
Well done. A nice glass of wine for you on this warm evening methinks. Hugs

Trina that sounds terrible.Of course it's not true.
You are doing really well,even though it may not feel like it.You listened to your inner voice telling you to do it "now or never" and that voice is your strength,keep listening .

I have had to stop xp coming to my house due to his verbal abuse and since he got the solicitors letter,he has made no move to find out about our baby dd,or to see her.

He,too, has told everyone that I am keeping her from him and that I have kicked him out rather than have his love and car, because I WANT to bring up 5 dc's alone....

I swing from huge relief at making the break,a heady sense of freedom; outrage and anger at what he did,and what I allowed; and - today - heartbreaking grief and sadness at the loss of my "soulmate". like you,I am still attracted to him and miss my best friend.

Hey ULA.

I have not contacted woman's aid. As I am quite sure I am no terrible danger now.The damage has already been done. I do intend to seek counseling after the initial dust has settled, as I know I am not in a good place.

I am trying my best to look after myself, but as I am sure you know it is difficult, I am managing to eat a bit better now, but I have started up smoking again, lots.

I do intend to see a solicitor after the house has completed, to maybe see about a residency order as I cant face years of battling about the children, I just want some clear and frequent access in place for all our sakes. I am 100% not worried about him disappearing abroad with the boys, he would not take on that responsibility, that's what I was for,he would turn around before he got to the airport! I will hide the passports tho JIC.

I have some support, one lovely friend in particular, but hate going on and on as I am so consumed by this, I can't imagine ever having another normal conversation.

Thanks for your support and your hugs xx

PM.

I feel exactly the same, he has been out drinking this aft and is fast asleep on the settee now. I look at him and all I see is love and everything I ever wanted. I have just cried so hard and torn myself away from watching him sleeping and wanting to hug him. I cant understand why he has to be so damn mean.

I am so sorry you are going through hell too PM, it really is gut wrenching to see your children suffering and their needs being ignored too. It must be so hard for you with a baby, but without the constant drain of your xp, I am sure you will have more to give, despite how down you feel.

Hope you sleep well, thanks for your support x

HI Trina and best of luck hun xxxx. It sounds like you have been to hell and back :0(.

I've just called womens aid cos he came round today making random false allegations of neglect despite me having witnesses who will back me up. They won't speak while he;s here. He is making open threats and screaming at me. This is why I didn't leave him earlier. He goes out whenever he wants and I'm expected to babysit but I have to ask permission for one or two nights out a month or two. He goes on month long holidays while we live on value food, buy designer clothes. His excuse - of course he works hard for his money. Why he is constantly rude agressive and abusive to me - he has to tell me if something is wrong. He's cheated, bought houses in other countries got bank loans without me knowing and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I was hoping to stay friends and co parent but it looks like a nasty fight is on the way. He is so destructive he wants to harm me even if it harms himself and his kids too.

I can't understand how pine and trina you can still feel affection for your ex's. Mine is just an all out bully and all this has been provoked because I went out yesterday and for no other reason.

Apparently he has "proved" that I can't live aalone and I should be begging for him back right now. That was said after he had been shouting abuse at me for 20 or so minutes!!!!!

Why do men all turn into idiots????

I forgot the best bit. He wants to take the two kids that look like him and live with them. Can't be botheed with the ones that look like me - in fact the reason he was bullying one son (which is why I finished it) is because he looks like me

Trina just had time to read all of your post and omg. He really fits the bill doesnt he? Im wondering whether to call Women's Aid just in case, and i think you should do the same too for your own protection.

Well done on getting rid of him in the end even if it did take 13 years xxxx

Now you can at least move on

Yes, yes, yes, both of you ... call Womens Aid! Look, you don't "have to need them" or be bleeding in a corner. They invest a huge amount of effort (and money, including mine) in: helping confused women to ground themselves; understanding your domestic situation when all around you say he's just acting like a man; helping stressed-out mothers to evaluate what's best for their kids. It's a sane voice for when all seems madness. So, call

You can also ring Samaritans - you don't "have to be suicidal", they're great at helping you figure out your own thoughts. But Women's Aid are better ... for women, in woman-specific situations. 0808 2000 247.

Thanks BSU

I hope you are OK? I don't think all men are idiots, I guess we have just been unlucky so far? I hope there is something to look forward to.

I can relate to some of your story, as my XP told me that he couldn't get on with my eldest son as 'he was just like me'. It really does cut like a knife.

He has also spent the full weekend being out golfing and drinking, occasionally being here making a point of not parenting, I even had to take my 3 year old up to the loo with me when he was acting up me FGS.

I know it is terribly wrong that I still want him so much, but after so long I really did get conditioned into always pandering to him and then reaping the rewards of my submission.

I was made cups of tea in bed every morning, frequently cooked very well for,cleaned for,shopping done,diy done, taken out,complimented, reassured, we also had an amazing sex life.
As long as I didn't challenge his constant drinking, never coming to up bed with me, lack of empathy/engagement with me and the children, little financial support, frequent golfing, footballing,constant playstation playing,mood swings, nasty 'jokey' comments, how it was always HIS lie in.....oh lots and lots and lots of stuff.

As soon as I challenged him,he ignored me with passion,if I dared to persist he frequently told me to shut up and 'get out of his sight' or 'go to bed'....'I was a joke,pathetic,ungrateful,boring etc etc. He would punish me by ignoring me for weeks and withdrawing financial and parental support. Anytime I did snap which became very infrequently I was deemed crazy and unstable.

It was like living with 2 different men, one being the absolute love of my life, the other my worst enemy.

IGA

If he kicks off again I will call WA. I confronted him after his last outburst and explained I would not tolerate any more abuse (which he finds amusing, as he feels I am the bully for making him leave and splitting us up)and if he wanted to stay here until he had found a new home, he had better behave, So he is now back to ignoring me and withdrawing parental/practical support. It is so predictable now.

I am on the 3 day countdown from tomorrow until his name is off the mortgage and I can legally lock him out if he gets abusive, thank god!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again xxxxxxxx

bsu Glad you called Womens Aid.
So sorry you are getting so much nastiness and threats.
I think you will find it easier in the long run that you no longer feel affection for your soon to be x.
I find it totally confusing to be missing someone who's clearly not worth the energy.

Like trina,I feel like I am remembering two different men.My x was so caring and capable,and an excellent "partner" - sharing chores,noticing what needed fixing and doing it,remembering milk,loo roll etc and being great fun.We had great sex and laughed and played a lot.
But he was moody ,controlling,jealous and verbally abusive - and blamed me for everything.
Even though it must have been fake,I don't know how I'd ever find anyone who matched his "good" side.That sounds crazy,and it confuses me totally.

trina I could have written your last paragraph in the above post.
I'm counting down these 3 days with you!

Oh PM, I am starting to wonder if my ex has not being golfing and footballing at all, but maybe keeping you stocked up with milk and toilet roll I bet its the value one lol.

Like you I am so torn as I will miss my soulmate, but I know he will be exactly the same with someone else probably real soon without having the barrier of any major sentimental/emotional attachment to me to get over. It hurts to feel so attached to someone and know that you are completely dispensable.

Whilst I was still trying desparately to work through this and communicate with him last month. I emailed him to say if he didn't speak with/acknowledge me I would have no choice but to end things. I was in bits.

He took my son out to give me a break, bought flowers for the garden, went out for a curry with his mates and a few hours after kissing me and telling me he loved me, was busy snogging a work colleague. He ignored me for 2 weeks and only told me about the kiss last week.

I keep reminding myself, it just doesn't mean to him what it means to me, it helps slightly. x

Trina - that is what I tell myself, and I keep re reading everything I have about NPD.

When our baby was 5 days old,he sat us all down to a lovely meal he had cooked,beautiful table,flowers,3 courses..told me and dc's (my 4 ,not his) that he would never let us down - like dc's fathers had done !!!!!! - and that he was sorry for all the troubles we had been through..big ,long speech about his intentions and supposed "insight" into his responsibility for his behaviour..what he would do to manage himself in future.
He had me and eldest dd in tears ,it was so moving.
He had spent all day cleaning the house and the previous day had done the garden.
He got us all into a lovely reminiscence about last years holiday and how this year would be even better with our baby "completing our family" ,how happy we had all made him.
My parents rang later,and he gave them the same speech.
He was adorable to me that night - massage,bath,cuddles..then fed baby over night to let me sleep.

We planned a picnic to a special place the following day when dc's back in school.

That was the day it all kicked off and he lost it in front of midwife.

And here we are.

I am in no doubt - intellectually - that I must never have contact with him again.I KNOW that he is a damaged,fake,inside out back to front ,lying ,abuser.I really do.

But my emotions are fried by it all.

I NEVER had love before,I never trusted so deeply or felt so sure it was all ok forever.

That clearly was not the case.So how tf to file those "happy" "wonderful" memories - that date back 3 weeks!!!!?

Pine I was exactly where you are with my first husband so heartbroken it was a physical pain. The only way to get over it is slowly and do different things to keep yourself busy.

At the end of the day you control yourself, and it's up to you to say that it is hard but you are going to cope and move on and it is over.

Try to imagine a light switch in your head and every time you want to daydream about him imagine yourself turning that light bulb off. If you do it every single time you will very quickly learn to turn off any feelings you have.

I have to laugh because mumsnet posts spring to my mind every time I think about falling for it again. Things like "emotional abuse - dump him" or "gaslighting".

Its just mind over matter pine I know you are strong enough to do it. Try and think what you would like for your life to be like a year from now, and how you would go about sorting that out.

From my point of view, I really don't know whether my ex is hurt and lashing out, or a vindictive bully who is about to give me a hard time. I hesitate to call Women's aid, as he is the father of my kids, but he has made it very clear it's not going to be easy. I think he thought it would be a nice little break with far less childcare and that he would come back sooner or later. Now he is realising that it is really over, and he is not going to come back, and he's getting really angry. He liked it when I worked full time and looked after the kids the rest of the time, whilst paying for most things - it was a nice cushy life and he could come and go as he pleased.

I hope he's not seriously attempting to remove a couple of my kids and that he is just angry.

But I have this pain in my stomach........that just won't go away

hi, not posted on here for a bit, will read your posts and catch up with you when I have time,got a lot of issues on at the moment!

I was wondering if any of you could help?

Have you ever sucessfully managed to stop someone else's script of you in relation to them?

What is happening is ex husband, can't stop contact as courts involved...

He is continually trying to behave in script since he left of his g/f's father's life it is tragic, alcoholic who thinks mother of the children is useless, and lots of other stuff...

He can't seem to move away from that scapegoating me and looking for now i got you! moments to put me down!

I have changed my behaviour towards him and am doing my best to treat him like he is ok even when he is trating me like I am not ok!

Is there a sucessfull way to stop this thing of him talking to me like I am not ok, and for him to continue in someone else's script, he was not of the opinion that I was a useless mother before he got with that woman, he and his family thought I was great up to her coming on to the scene. Her father wanted her mother to look bad and did all the same things through the courts, it is really annoying me it has gone on for years now... I don't know what to do regarding it, as telling him was useless and made him angrier! he is in denial sadly, not sure if he is a narc? He seems to take on the opinions of the partner he is with from what I can gather, he loved kids etc when with me, now they are disposable and he does the same as his g/fs father did, he died eventually when she was a teen, it was under suspicious circumstances! he has no contact with the kids, I am trying to get free financially from him it is taking time through courts!

Oh, mh, it's wearing, isn't it?!

IME people do respond differently when you refuse to play your expected part in their script. Not always, though. A fully-fledged Narc, for example, absolutely has to get their 'supply' and will stop at nothing. If you're in their spotlight, your only options are to feed them, or to run & hide.

What sort of things is X doing/saying? The main thing, if you can stand it, is NOT to pick him up on what he says - because that makes what he said seem valid enough to argue. So, if he says "You're stupid", he is obviously out of order but, if you reply "I'm not stupid!", then you're acting as if he has a point. Whereas, he's not really interested in discussing your intelligence, he's just trying to wind you up.

The safest kind of reply is either to pick him up on his manners - like, "That's a rude thing to say" - or to stay out of it; making a bland reply like "You're entitled to your opinion" or "Hmm".

I suppose that, if he's making wild accusations as part of your childcare agreement, you are forced to refute them, but you should only really do this through your solicitor. There is absolutely nothing wrong with replying "I disagree with everything you've said" - and just leave it at that.

Is this making any sense? When you start doing it, it feels like a very big effort. It's surprising how quickly you get used it, though

Been lurking for the last little bit, but have to chip in and say Trina's insight is the perfect antidote for all who feel even in the smallest way that they've lost their soulmate or the love of their lives (welcome btw to the club, and well done for all that you've accomplished) "it just doesn't mean to him what it means to me" the lips are moving and words are coming out, like Love, Promise, Blah blah, but it's just words, and they mean nothing to an N. Words are tools they use to get what they want.

They can say 'Love' and 'Despise' with equal fervour. Inside them there's a black hole where human feeling should be.

"I'm sorry you feel that way" is another handy stock answer for someone who is clearly just venting or raging or doing what your H is doing MH. To a large extent, once the physical separation is accomplished and until they find another punchbag, and if the new punchbag dumps them, you're still the target of their inner rage no matter what you do. You can't and won't please these men, so you might as well please yourself. Going to WA for support (you don't have to feel in any physical danger or justify calling them in any way) and finding out your legal position is always useful too.

BSU, I can identify so well with your description of the crazy train and the way my ex used to (and still does) find hidden codes in everything I said or even the facial expressions I used. I think my ex is actually very paranoid on top of everything else.

Thank you so very much for your great wisdom, I am going to read again later to fully take it in, so busy at mo, and I want to catch up on some posts on here, take care all x kiss kiss

Hello,

I have been reading these posts, I think I'm in the right place (unfortunately). You all seem to be very strong women - how do you keep your sanity?

I think 'H' has NPD. He recently moved out - to a house that we usually rent out but is empty at the moment (not far from me & the DSs). He's there now, his mum has come to help with the move. It all seems to be going very smoothly, a bit too smoothly. H has gone from terrifying me to being very calm, helpful, nice etc. He wants to get the DSs a puppy, they would love it, I've said no as we have cats.

Has he suddenly changed? or is it the calm before the storm? My instincts are telling me that something isn't right with this.