Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

Grace - thanks. You have really hit the nail on the head there. It is about how GD MUST adore her and there is also a bit about how she worries I may put her off due to my own issues.

It's true but being a psychologist has been no help whatsoever with my relationship with my mother. In fact I think it has made it worse I sometimes try to deal with her with a 'professional head' on but of course have too much resentment to be at all rational really.

I may hang around on here for a while! Some good advice and at least there are some people in the world sharing the madness of insane relatives!

fifitot I am a psychiatric nurse and cbt practitioner. This has been a hindrance and risk factor for me in my appalling relationships with parents and partners - especially mother and xp who are of the BPD /NPD variety.

I have - I think - some confused and enmeshed "rescuer/therapist" stuff going on which has led me to accept far too much absolute crap and abuse whilst maintaining hope and a belief in change and desperately empathising and accepting - loving and continuing to welcome - an abusive person as partner,friend,parent whilst telling myself - and often them - that I reject their "behaviour".

This has been to my cost at work,where I find myself grappling with similar dynamics within teams - particularly one's that I have recruited myself...

Welcome to the thread!

Pinemartina - what you say rings so true. Professionally it is about working with the behaviour but because that behaviour doesn't impact upon yourself, it is easy to grapple with it. I forget sometimes, when I am beating myself up about the latest breakdown of relations with my mother, that I have around 40 years of history with her and a list of resentments as long as my arm! It's no wonder I can't move things along!

Also I am finally facing the fact that my intrinsic belief in the capacity of individuals to change (work mainly in forensic psychology), doesn't really apply in my mother's case. IF she does ever manage to see the bigger picture and recognise her problems - it won't be because of me!

fifi, um, she won't.

Which gives you carte blanche to knock her on the head frankly (figuratively speaking of course)

Bye mummy dearest. Hello life.

I've often wondered about this ... Psychologists only see people who've referred themselves for treatment - or have been forced to notice the disparity between their universe & the usual one. Does that, in itself, skew your faith in people's desire to change? Surely most PD individuals blaze their trails of destruction through a bewildered world, never stopping to consider?

Yes I've read time after time that the therapists are often seeing the wrong people. Those with the insight to know there is something wrong and have the wherewithall to change it.

My h is COMPLETELY convinced that there is nothing whatever wrong with him, or the way he sees the world and every body in it. If anything he's getting worse. He is refusing to watch sky news as it's an evil right wing conspiracy. (Iknow they're backing the Tories, but it's not a conspiracy) He believes that everyone in our village hates him....actually no one knows who he is! I remember when my older sister was having serious mental health problems and she was convinced that the audiences were whispering about her, plotting her downfall. She only got treated when she was given two years probation for threats to kill and intent to commit arson, she had to attend therapy to stay out of prison.

I have frequently thought that the gap between sectioning someone and increasingly unhealthy behaviours needs to be bridged in some way, as the damage done is immense. My sister could have killed a family! And yet, the system only kicks in when it becomes a crisis.

PD is thought not to be 'treatable' in most circumstances to be honest. More recently there has been a shift in that a bit.

I work with offenders who legally are forced to confront their behaviour. This is usually assessment for courts and parole, not treatment per se. Though have worked with sex offenders etc.

However I guess my belief in the capacity of individuals to change is a personal one really. I know it doesn't really apply to PD or other pathologies.

Thanks, Fifi. I've read of genuine improvements in PDs but they all seem to have been in the 'passive' end of the spectrum - where, I imagine, the benefits of change appeal directly to the sufferer. That statistic about half of prisoners being NPD rings true, even if it isn't!

and at your h and sis, prettylegs! I shouldn't be grinning at all, really: your h's convictions are so similar to my family's, laughter is my coping response. (Not in front of them, of course - that would be asking for trouble.)
Ongoing under-funding of MH services is a tragic shame, isn't it? I can't help thinking it will jump up and bite whichever regime gets in tomorrow; they will surely make further cuts, just as the electorate suffers ever-harsher stresses & cracks up a little more. Afaik, intermediate interventions for people like your sister should be available via Social Services? Underfunded, again, and now terrified of making any decisions ...

Indeed Grace, and I consider myself fortunate in the extreme to be accessing the help I need now, and not three months from now, whoever gets in tomorrow.

If you recall, I did smirk at the text book ness of h a couple of weeks ago, which smouldered in him until the police had to be called.

Before he left he was all for helping his really rather famous friend, who was thinking of standing for the socialist workers party, or similar. This famous friend has been a member of the BNP, and has served time in prison for extreme left wing union violence and intimidation. Funny, because before he hit his serious decline in mental health, he had stopped taking this persons calls, and could see through the strangeness of his view of the world.

AND SO.....

FIFI do you think mental health is something that can ebb and flow....like physical health...I think, from experience....I hope? ie if you spend time in the gym and eat well, your body gets better. If you do the things to improve mental health, that improves too.

I do think MH can improve but perhaps not personality disorders. Thinking more of depression and anxiety which are usually treatable.

PDs are so much part of an individual that it can be hard to change that, if at all. Even then the person has to want to change of course.

Personality disorders can burn out though,and I have worked with a few - women ,it must be said- who have seemingly had enough and packed it in for good.

True.

Hi guys, I have been posting on and off on statley homes, and posted recently and advised to come on here!

I have read a bit at the beginning and the last three pages, so need to do some catching up.

I was reading about sexual abuse, as well as emotional abuse of you all, I was thinking to myself, that there was mild sexual abuse there with the ex, he said he had engaged in anal sex with a prior partner, and I did not want to do it, he kept trying to encourage me, eventually I told him I would do it for a significant birthday, I could not go through with it in the end, things changed after that.

The last year few years I had health problems, and he still wanted sex in positions that were not confortable for me, we carried on having sex although infrequent right to the end, the last year or so I kept getting sore inside and would sometimes bleed (that happened from time to time throughout marriage) when he did foreplay, it got sorer and sorer near the end, it felt like he was cutting me with his nails inside, now when I come to think of it, about how nasty I now know him to be and what you are all saying, I wonder if he was hurting me physically inside?

Is that possible?

He is also playing games again with the house sale, thankfully I am getting smarter and thwarting some of it, it is a constant battle, I really need to be free of him financially, and wonder will this court case ever end? He seems to need that control over me and the children he has not seen for a very long time, he ignores me with genuine issues related to the children and house, and I find out from third parties that he discusses what I tell him, yet he does not respond to me, I think I won't tell him anything any more, it is just that he annoys me as anything bad he shoots me down without questioning things and always looks for the worst reason for it to have happened, and anything good is ignored, like the marriage I suppose, everything is my fault, and not his...

I also found what was said in the last pages about them blocking off from their past, like a suicide to restart, the ex did that with the girl he lived with before me, and with me and the kids, he must really hate himself!

I also think that the fact that he hates me is all about me knowing the truth and he hates me as I represent his horrible core!

I was reading about Kerry Katona, and we could all see how vounerable she was and what Mark was up to, and he has been telling people she cleared out the house, when it was him, that is what my ex does he does nasty things and blames them on me! and plonkers believe him!

I don't think everyone does though, I remember when I first found out I was pregnant and we told his mates, and they were all laughing about how increadable and scary this child of his will be, I found it odd and blocked it all out, when I think now they probably know what he is like, they mostly work for him, and have seen him destroy many a boss to get their job, and bully colleagues, maybe they know but say nothing, or choose to believe him as it is easier to do that!

One of the biggest shocks, after a relationship like this, is the realisation that you can trust your own senses - that what you thought you felt, or heard, or saw, was real. That someone had managed to disconnect you from yourself, to such an extent that you disbelieved your own senses.
What a vile, vile thing to do

I wish these threads had existed while I was going through the stupidly protracted, mind-fucking, miserable manipulations of my divorce. Then I should have had the awareness you have, now, of what's happening. Keep notes. Stay sane! And put your foot down, you do have legal rights.

Yes, of course his mates knew! What a pity none of them sat you down & spelled it out ...

Grace, I did say to him at the time, did you cut your nails, it feels like you cut me, and I looked at them and they were not long or anything, I put it down to it being my body at the time, I hate to think that he was inside me scratching or something, it is another thing you will just never know.

When you say of course his mates knew and know, do you mean when they were saying about the baby we were going to have, and that they know now that he was probably the cause of things? There was one nice guy, he was not close to in the group, who he did not pick on, or was not intereseted in much, but worked for him, he was always nice when I rang up those first few months after the split, no nastyness in his voice, you think they know and are just keeping themselves safe?

Do you think it is loyalty to a friend, about their job, or they just don't give a bleeeppppppppp as they are similar to him or that they are like I was the one who was an enabler, who thought he would never do anything like that to me.....

He kept them away from me mostly, he claimed to see them when I was not about, I would often ask him to sort his mates and their wives come around, he rarely did.... Even his family I had to encourage his seeing them....

They like him are the sort that the mountain has to come to them, lazy and selfish, and would rather not see you than do any work, so we only saw his parents three times a year, with us doing two of the trip's, his sisters would come once ever three years to see us....

I am on a roll now....

I also wonder if the thing with his g/f he left for, if he plays her off against me, and tells her lies and that she advises him on his lies, I still think she is not right herself, and I know she was abused by her dad and step dad and unprotected by her mother, I understand that women like that hate their mothers deep down inside and that is why they go ofter married men with children, like they are taking it out on the man's wife and the men instead of her parents.... sick eh...

Grace, how did you recover then yourself, what support did you have when all of this came out for you?

sorry me again, his latest email, he claims to have sent me the form E, when he has not, neither of us has a solicitor, and we are in court next week... games again..... he is also trying to engineer it to make it look like I am being awkward with the house sale, making statements that the estate agents state I am being obstructive, got a statement from the estate agents that I am not, thanfully, wonder what his next thing will be to try and make me look unreasonable and make things go his way, as he has so suceeded with everything else... grrrr........

His friends' joke about the baby definitely means they know he's "incredible and scary". Most people prefer not to think about these things too much - it's easier to cover your observations with a sideways remark, and carry on as normal. If we all stared into the full horror of the nutters we know, we'd never get anything done.

After we split up, mutual friends made a very big point of letting me know my ex seemed fine; was very nice; relaxed, etc. I'm 100% sure this is because they knew what I'd been going through, didn't want to admit it ... and so felt the need to overstress the opposite, to me. When X got married again, his best friend even itemised all the ways X treated her better, than he'd treated me at ours. I'd never discussed any of this with him. He'd clearly noted it all, and was relieved when the second wedding gave him an excuse to forget what an arse his best mate really is.

It's a dead cert that yours is manipulating his latest victim just as he did you. As you know she was an abused child, you can easily see why he picked her: she's already been conditioned, probably has low self-worth and has plenty of psychological hooks for him to catch on to - and twist.

It's nice of you to think I'm recovered! I'm still suffering the effects - financial, social & psyhological - of what happened. What I can say is that I've changed fundamentally: for the better, though it doesn't look that way from the outside I'm sure. I had no real support, though friends were very kind until they got fed up. The marriage breakup prompted me to start therapy and that is why I'm so much more aware of this stuff nowadays.

I really don't think you should be going to court without knowlegeable support. Have you rung Women's Aid for advice?

Stay angry. It's very motivating

Bloody hell re the best man, what kind of a man says that at a wedding, to make the second bride feel better, he will say the same about her to the third!

The new victim he has went for a married father, I have little sympathy for her, if it was someone who just came along then I would feel for her, this one wanted the drama and nastyness, it seems to have been all she has known, her life is quite sad really, her dad left, he sounds nasty, he was an alcholic and abusive, her mother did not protect her, her mum worked loads of jobs to become a bankrupt and both parents did not want her by the sounds of it, mum did not want her as instead of staying at home on benefits, she worked and sent ow to two child minders a day, which must have left her no better off than if she had stayed at home on benefits and cared for the child herself, well that is my take on it, as the mother went through three year battle through coruts with father who walked away after destroying her and trying to make her look like a bad mother... then ow got back in touch with dad for a year and he died under mystery circumstances around the time mum took up with a new man, new man was another abusive alcoholic and ran pub with mother and became a bankrupt, ow was bullied all through junior school, and seemed to have a horrible childhood of neglect and abuse... then went to study psychology, took up with man one who she sent to psychiatric hospital, and then ex who she has had take me through courts with lies, she has had him to see psychiatrists and counsellors, through court case, she, him, me and kids all had to see psychiatrist for the court case, ex took me to court over her, she did odd stuff to my kids, red flags really... .I was worred about sexual abuse, nothing happened regarding touch, there was flags and discomfort and looking from her going on, ex lied for her to court, and I and kids were branded liars.... it makes me so angry, he is ashmed of himself over that, calling dd a liar, I know when I spoke to him in court recently it was written all over his face, there was other stuff, that alarmed me, and psychologist I told about it all who was working with me and kids.... such a long story.... he is trying for a baby with her, god help that child! she did a degree in psychology, and is not in any way innocent, ,she has enjoyed messing with my children, and enjoyed helping him destroy me.....I agree with what you say about her.... though probably got low self worth etc...

I gather from the kids that she was always bolstering him, telling him he was superman and manipulating him to do stuff.... I think she is codependant and has a sadistic unstable side to her too... I scares me and makes me think if I am crazy too for him to have picked me......

I am the same fundamental change, and recovering....and had some therapy also...

have huge debts, not elegable for legal aid, and not got enough money for a barrister or solicitor, not rung womens aid, have had free legal advice from a local charity for half an hour, just could not afford to keep going with solicitors....

I don't even feel that angry anymore, I don't want to be angry any more, I had two and a half years of it and I hated feeling that way, I don't do well angry, I do well, keeping calm and taking my time, listening to my gut, talking things through, and making decisions slowly... it took me a long time to realise that....

It was so helpfull to have your insight regarding the ex's friends....

Hello there,

I have had some contact with the ex husband, relating to ungoing joint finances.

I am so very much opening up my eye's to how little I trusted myself and my knowledge and my innervoice. I had allowed that to be switched off, and someone felt that someone else could tell me things and that their word was more important than mine, how did I survive living with that, I just don't know!

He is actually beginning to break up a bit, I have to be easy on him and I am trying very hard, his perception of reality, which he makes up anything to cover up, is being broken down by me, he is continually gripping on to fantasy and it is sad really.. how do you do it gently?

Three times now he has accused me of doing something I have not, three times, I have given him evidence that backs me up, and he is kicking out at anything to make me a scapegoat, or blame me etc, it is sad really, the thing is I used to fall for it, now that I understand the projection, when he was saying to me, that I should get a document for my clarification, he was actually wanting me to get the document for his clarification, as he is finally accepting that he is wrong about things, it must be hard for him and if it is hard for him he is going to be nasty and horrible to me to push harder for his reality....right?

This is yet again this is through courts, and he is messing everything up for the kids continually with it all....

The other thing is he is accusing me and the children of hating him, I told him people that think others hate them often hate themselves, that we don't hate him, we understand he was ill and that his behaviour caused hurt and disapointment, that there is no hatred... he also said that I just want the kids to see how horrible he is, now I understand his language is it he wants the kids to see how horrible he is, and the other thing is he must feel dreadfully horrible about himself... so what I am trying to do is get rid of him feeling we think that about him, to stop him projecting that hatred onto us and punishing us, to take his punishment if that makes sense? as I think he scapegoats us, as a projection of his nasty ways, which he still twists around and accuses me of doing what he has done...

goodness it is sad, I really need to get all entanglements from him, and be free of his illness, I don't think he is happy, I don't think he wants to get better, I am sad really for the children, as he is a mess and I married him and had kids with him, it is not what I would have wanted, and I just want this over with to start a new life with no oddness in it!

The good thing is that I am learning and so is he what my new boundaries are, and he is bending... if I can get him to bend, I can get anyone to, finally a life of me and others respecting me, and me stopping being passive agressive and needy! I feel strong and confident, well almost lol x

Hi I've been watching this thread for months and finally need to write something as enough is enough. I had an abusive childhood which caused me to get ill and as a result do not see my family any more. I married my first husband overseas and it was ok to start off with until we moved to a place where I did not know anyone. He started to change and become angry all the time, then I started being followed by his co worker, then came random accusations of fancying whichever random person he decided upon at the time. Everything I said was apparently a secret hidden code and meant soethng else.

Anyway long story short soon after this I gave up my job (at his request) At that point he started laying into me and not sleeping with me. It's then when I started falling asleep 18 hours a day, I do not know if I was drugged but I lost 3 stone in about 3 months. He was showing off his "crazy" wife, and looking like the innocent maytyr having to put up with me ( I should say I've worked all of my life before and after). I had loved him so much I put up with it even knowing that something terrible was going to happen.

It seems he was deliberately trying to make me look mad to get rid of me on the cheap. It was when I was deliberately attacked that I could take no moe and moved back to the uk with 2 suitcases. I have not seen my family or friends since that time. He divorced me on the cheap and maried his ex who he was probably seeing.

Fast forward to hubby no 2 and the same is happening. He's cheated a few times, got bank loans without my knowledge, bought houses overseas, gone away and come back a month later. He doesn't show affection, never takes me out, puts me down all the time. Having said that he is a good dad and loves his kids. However he denies any of the problems I go through, for example when my oldest son was coming homme singing racist (against himself) chants his dad denied it!!!! My son now has big behaviourial problems because he was mentally abused and my husband isbeing too hard on him and not on the others. Two formerly close friends no longer speak to me because of him directly. I am also being accused of fancying random people. My life consists of working full time and looking after my lovely kids with nothing else.

I'm fed up although not depressed the council won't let him move out cos he s a joint tenant and I have nowhere to turn.

I need something to change but don't know what to do and I get basically picked on and put down all the time by other people as well.

Any help appreciated.

God, that's awful! You definitely need advice on how to protect yourself and your children. Go to your GP and tell them everything that's happening in your life, that will help get the support services moving. Contact the Citizens Advice Bureau and also ring Womens Aid. Have you got a social worker/health visitor, due to your DCs? If so, please also tell them about your problems.

So sad that you're suffering all this again

beingset up, I am sorry for the things that you have been through, you are a strong survivor!

What exactly do you want to change about your life the most?

What do you think you can do to change first in your life?

What do you think will give you the strength to make the changes that you want in your life?

speak soon x