Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

UA I hope to god I will one day reach the closure you are slowly attaining.
I'm crying my days out in such turmoil and confusion right now. I have no more defences up and I'm so raw.
I lived with my ex for so many years, he was the closest person to me. Despite all the nasty, vindictive behaviour he showed me I miss the 'nice' him, the friend?
I can't come to terms with all the damage and pain that existed in our marriage, the war that it turned out to be. I'm just so over-whelmed with saddness about the whole life we ended up living together.

And the worst thing is, now that I'm no longer numb, now that I've let my defensive wall down, I look at my own behaviour - the cheating - and I wonder how I could have done that to another human being?

If this is a kind of 'coming out the other side' for me, then I want it over with quickly. I don't know how long I can keep spending my days crying and being given teddies by my dc to cheer me up. I have no idea where I'm going, or how I'm going to get beyond all this hurt. There's no going back, but I can't imagine moving forward either.
Stuck in self pity mode. And I hate myself for it.

Im new here today, I haven't read the original thread and am working my way through this one and it's very enlightening, not sure if this is appropriate but here goes, I think I was married to someone like this. He gave the world, or rather people he chose to, the impression of being mr perfect family man while to others he was jack the lad. I was so completely isolated I hadn't a clue I found it all out after bit by bit as things fell into place. We never ever went out, we went to the cinema twice in the last 10 years of the marriage, my idea both times, I can see now he went along with it grudgingly, never had a meal out, never had a holiday, I found out we did get various social invitations but I never heard about them, he'd just tell people we couldn't come, saying I wouldn't go out, meanwhile I was desperate to get out and see people. He gave the impression of being such a fantastic all round good guy and so capable there was nothing he couldn't do, he simply never had (or showed) any anxieties over anything, cool as a cucumber at all times, I on the other hand felt useless compared to someone like that. I ended up unable to leave the house on my own, quite literally did not see a soul apart from him and our child for years on end, couldn't drive I was too scared. He'd look at me sympathetically, pityingly actually, but never encouraged me in any way, I was the poor thing, bit mad, won't go out, I was the reason we had no friends. Of course I know now that if someone can't leave the house and you can, if they never mingle with the people you know then you can do whatever the hell you like out there. And he did, prostitutes included.
Once I had some insight it all became clear and after he was found out and slunk off like a coward I saw the total detachment and lack of empathy, the REAL person behind the lies. The refusal to give me any money to even feed myself and my child whilst coldly agreeing to and promising us anything just to get us off his case and I realised that all those stories were just that, stories. The knowing the rich and extremely famous, being the golden boy at work always there to save the day for the company which simply couldn't function without him, the you-couldn't-make-it-up things he'd see and be involved in on an almost daily basis, he'd be there just as an armed robbery or an assault was happening and see everything and be able to help the police out no end. And I also realised the years and years of banks, mortgage lenders and utility companies making mistake after mistake with his accounts, the wrongly sent oh-so-irritating-what's-wrong-with-these-people-can't-they-get-anything-right! disconnection and default letters which he could always sort out with one phone call were all lies as well..he just never paid anything until the last possible minute, if at all.
But what really made me realise the truth about him was the way he treated his son (late teens when he left) he dropped him like a hot brick, he'd been a father always there throughout his life and then overnight nothing, he doesn't even own a photo of his son. But looking back I realised it was always me organising birthdays and christmas, I thought because he was there physically he was there emotionally, he wasn't. It's obvious that if you can walk away from a child, of any age, just like that, you never felt anything for them in the first place. In fact his new girlfriend told me she once asked him if he did not miss his son, did he not love him? His reply after some thought 'hmmn..I like him' She has told me he never ever mentions his son.
He has borrowed large sums from a business partner, family and friends and not paid them back, he has attempted to steal from a family member's bank account, he has been involved in sleazy, illegal and highly embarrassing ventures and acts as if everyone does it every day of the week. When he was arrested and narrowly escaped prison for such an offence he could only whine about the unfairness of it all. He's involved in drugs and has been the victim of violence from the people he mixes with.
And as for me, well one positive.. as soon as he left all my irrational fears of doing everyday things left with him, I feel stupid though that I was so gullible but I can see the isolation contributed to that. While you are in it you really can't see the wood for the trees, distance is a wonderful thing for clarity and of course now I know it's not just him being like that, and not just me going through it. It's been a few years now but I'm still dealing with it, the relationship was 26 years in total and I don't even know at what point the lies began. I'll keep reading, thanks, sorry it was a long one :-)

omg UA .You are so brave to share those letters and your post above.
I am speechless.It could be my x talking.
I can't image how devastated and blown away you must have felt when he disappeared after writing such seemingly insightful and hopeful words.
Unfortunately,I can't help clinging onto [vain] hope that THIS will [or at least could] be different.
But I know it probably can't,and wont.
I will try to protect us by keeping separate and maintaining distance.After all,if he does come through,he will do it regardless,as he says.The evidence will speak for itself.
Meanwhile,I will get on with life and try to move on.
That's the theory.
Do you think the reinventing,pissing off,abandoning etc is part of the self-hate and disgust they feel.Is it a "suicide" of the self that they have been living and which they have had enough of - either through shame at what they have done and an ultimate refusal to take responsibility for the destruction;or a simple wish to reinvent ,totally selfishly,for their own gratification and have it all their way?

I have re-read the last 2 pages of this thread many many times this afternoon.
I am so grateful to you UA,TRM,GRACE (everyone else of course)
I have deep respect for everyone here.
TRM , I really feel for you.I wish I could offer some useful words,I am so self absorbed with my own misery.
I too,can't bear the thought of losing my "best friend".I am still unsure I can hold my resolve and keep away,despite everything.
You are inspiring courage and determination in me to remain true to myself by your own continued bravery and statements of resolve.
Although I don't "know " anyone here,I think that by holding out and keeping x away despite my longing for him,I somehow feel I am able to honour your integrity in having got this far and sharing so much- this probably says a lot about my own integrity and sense of self worth ....but it is helping me to focus .
i feel humbled by so much of what I read.
Thank you.

Pm you wrote: 'Is it a "suicide" of the self that they have been living and which they have had enough of - either through shame at what they have done and an ultimate refusal to take responsibility for the destruction;or a simple wish to reinvent ,totally selfishly,for their own gratification and have it all their way?@

That is a very clever idea. The suicide of the self I mean. I don't know despite having read about it all so much, but it certainly sounds very probable. But then it is absolutely right that they go on to do their own thing with utter self-gratification. Maybe it is both concepts operating together: they 'kill' the oold fake persona and just re-invent the new one quite easily, and it is all just to achieve their own ends/get supply.

Don't think you have to be loyal to anybody else's experiences or resolve on here, in deciding what you do. If you decide to take your ex back, we would support you through the shit that would probably follow and be there when/if (more likely when) you did realise it is never going to work and he is just a bastard.

Only you can do it, in your own way.

I took my exh back quite a few times and trm has admitted she put up with her ex's shit over and over again. We do because we want to believe them and because it is much flippin easier to believe them than go through the exhaustion and misery of the alternative.

But pm do you think you would take him back if you were not about to give birth to his child? Would you? Would you?

You may not know the answer.

Trm just have a good old wail, feel miserable, sleep-deprived and crap. Read again about PTSD and dig out your barring order and look at it

Just keep going. Summer is coming, you could move back to the UK, you should try planning a small holiday with the dcs somewhere warm. Just keep getting it all out. It's like shaking off a terrible virus. Wish I could do or say more.

I second the PTSD. When UA first pointed out to me that I probably had ptsd, I forgave myself for not being able to cope with going out job-hunting and for feeling a bit stressed if I had more than two things planned for the next three days (and I mean apts for the children). The NPD label makes sense of them and the PTSD label makes sense of us and how we feel/felt. I felt like I had permission to recover for a while after reading up about ptsd. I had felt very guilty that I was just on lone parent benefit. I'm settling into that nicely now

I'm off on holiday at the crack of dawn tomorrow. First sun holiday since..... 1992, I went to America in 1999 and that was great but it was freezing! (october), so I probably have a major vitamin D deficiency. Holidays with the x were always so fraught and I dreaded them because I was cooped up with him and nowhere to escape to. This will be a relaxing holiday. And if it turns out I've forgotten something, nobody will eat the face off me!!

I hope everybody stays well as they can be while I'm away. A week away from the internet will do me good though, now.

PM, I wonder if I will come back to baby news? Focus on you and your baby. You have a big loving family just you your older kids and the baby. You don't need your parents approval and you don't need your X. Stay strong and enjoy your baby.

Thanks Magaly -Have a wonderful time!

PM -- it's no accident that he said the words he said when you were at a point that he perceived as vulnerable, i.e. in the hospital, perhaps about to give birth, so at a disadvantage emotionally, preoccupied with the momentous event that might have happened, and also perhaps going to be going through that experience in a place and under conditions that you hadn't chosen (since you're planning to deliver at home with doula).

Visiting you in the hospital in the circumstances and pouring on the 'insight', 'apologies' and charm in general (smelling nice) was a highly manipulative act. I think he envisions the scenario of you delivering the baby as an occasion when he will be joyfully welcomed back into the fold, playing the part of the knight in shining armour while you go through the post partum experience and he restores order, whips everyone into shape, and makes you feel utterly useless, confused and incapable in the process. The visit in the hospital was a testing of the waters to gauge your level of resistance to the plot twist he has in mind. It was also an attempt to get a foot in the door.

The arrival of the baby will be the setting of a scene for him, in other words, all about him and the script he has written in his head, the role he has assigned to you and to him. In other words, nothing new is to be expected from this man.

TRM -- I had the same sort of talking to a brick wall experience with almost exactly the same logic and conversation turns from my exMIL one of the last times we talked (without any Easter goodies involved).

Hello I am reading this thread & the other one, and feeling moved. I have to stave off some disasters (money-related) just now so will post later. Much love. PM, stay sane!!!

Sorry, this isnt a nice subject and to be honest i might name change after this.
Somethings bothering me. A lot.
Some of these idiots are sexually abusive. Mine was . It happened so slowly and gradually i didnt notice until all the pretence was gone and i was being openly attacked. I downplayed it for ages , until it finally hit me and i sought counselling.

I saw two differant counsellers, both felt he wasnt a risk to the children. I accepted that, but now im not so sure, how can they possibly know ?
There are no signs of this, although he has in the past verbally abused the dcs, threated to kill himself in front of them and made various threats against me via them. They exist only when they are with him, when theyre not, they are forgotton. He violates their boundarys, and recently we had a conversation about a freinds young daughter (15) seeing a much older man. He commented that he couldnt blame him for trying!!!!!Wtf ?

Theres loads of examples that reflect his attitudes. If he thinks its ok to do it to me, why not them? Whats the differance ?
The fact is, every weekend my dcs go off to spend the weekend with a SEXUAL ABUSER. He doesnt have to sign the sex offenders register nor is he in prison, but he is a proven sexual abuser all the same isnt he.

The dcs want to see him, if i stop contact now i will look like a bitter ex wife, if i say anything about it now ill not be beleived, and lets face it, who allows their kids to go off to a sexual abusers for the day ?
It sounds daft, but at the time i just accepted it, i was traumatized i think, and i assured myself he would never do anything like that to the dcs, i accepted it along with the mind games, the lies and the other types of abuse. What have i done ?

Everything i read states that abusive behaviour to ones spouse is an indicater of child sex abuse , the more i read the more alarmed i am. Even if there wasnt the issue of sexual abuse, what was i thinking allowing my dcs to go off with someone who screams hystericly and threatens suicide in front of them?

This is just hitting home, im not sure what to do.

Dignified, let's not pretend such things don't happen. When you read about the Narcissist and his/her abusive/disordered cousins, you find that sexual abuse of children is part of the pattern. It goes along with the love of self -> children I made, just like me -> love them -> fuck them. As one of the diaries says, "It's the closest he can get to having sex with himself". Even without a diagnosis, we know that most of our Xs abused us sexually as well as in other ways. One thing we can be sure of is that they have no concept of others' boundaries, therefore no respect for same. Another is that they are happy to use others for their own gratification.

OK, we got that over with. I'm quite surprised you're worried about what "people" will say about you, if you take a hard line? From what you say about the screaming & suicide threats (FGS!), he does in fact abuse them on visits - the two things you mentioned are child abuse - and you could probably get the visits stopped through the proper channels.

Are your children very comfortable with talking to you? Can they tell you anything without fear and, more importantly, do they? How would they feel about stopping the visits? They do have a say, after all.

If you're not confident that you'd know if he exposed them to inappropriate behaviours, I think you might want to book a few sessions of family counselling. It is available on the NHS.

I understand how hard it's been for you to think about this ... "thinking the unthinkable", almost. I want to commend you for it. It is a real danger, and it can take guts to push through layers of denial - not only your own, but other people's as well. That, however, is the reason why child sexual abuse is making it into the headlines: general awareness is on your side. You're being brave, sweetheart, and your caution is justified. Take heart, and be proud of your protective instincts

At the moment they like going although on occasion they get sick of him and are starting to realise his behaviour is not acceptable or normal. Solicitor warned him that such behaviour would stop contact all together and since then he hasnt done it again.

However today for some reason i have started to think of the alarming things he has said , on their own not important but altogether they create a sinister profile. On occasion the dcs have raised concerns with me . In turn i have raised them with him in a calm way. Immediateley he has exploded and denied the incident, and WORSE threated to challenge them about what they have said . This obviously sends a clear message to the dcs, if you say anything to your mum i will challenge you about it, even if you are justified ect.

He also seems to have a particular favourite dc, visits with the others are not as frequent, he doesnt question this and i wonder why.( is it because he has access alone with this particular one ? )

Several other posters have experienced similar, do your dcs still see him? Im quite horrified at myself , how can these 2 counsellers be sure he wont do it to them ? They explained that they are obligated to report any concerns and i honestly thought they would, yet they both said that they thought he wasnt a pervert, but had used sex to dominate me,, whats the differance exactly ?

I relayed to counseller specific incidants , she said that she didnt beleive this had just happened, rather that it had been going on for a very very long time . I thought about it and yes, it had. Might sound minor but started off with him squashing me, not taking his own weight. I would object yet it was an ongoing issue. He would constantly lie on my hair by accidant aparently, touch me in a way i didnt like, when i objected he would turn on the victim act accusing me of saying he was shit in bed. On and on it went, a slow gradual errosion of boundarys and limits until it had gone so far it was unbeleivable, always the victim, me the frigid bastard. Objections would be met with explosions which of course i didnt want the dcs to hear so i would comply.

Frankly i want them away from this pervert , what was i thinking. Every day i recall yet another alarming comment , another warning sign, i consider his inapropriate massive porn collection and im alarmed.On occasion hes accused the dcs of lying when they havent , he blames one in particular for the breakdown of our marriage, he has set them against each other and demonised them on occasion.

The awful truth is that they already have been exposed to abusive behaviour , theyve listened to him threatening suicide , screaming abuse, it was normal here, no big deal. They also must have heard him screaming at me about how shit i am in bed , how frigid i am and how i need to go to the docters because he hurts himself trying to shag me.
So theyve already hears inapropriate sexual comments and recently he made a inapropriate comment about one dd body.
Wtf, how fucked up must i be to allow them to visit ?

Is there any way you could find a therapist for the children, one who would do an assessment of whether they had been sexually abused? Maybe a rape crisis centre could refer you?

This is my biggest fear too, although my ex lived an almost celibate life (strongly suspect he is gay). Some of the porn I found on the computer as we tried to repair our relationship through counselling (at his insistence) showed teenage girls -- it's very hard to figure out the ages of the girls in pornography. My ex is capable of living absolutely separate lives, compartmented to the nth degree, and is a boundary pusher extraordinaire. I frankly wouldn't put it past him, but my observations of the children make me think (rationally) that this line wasn't crossed and isn't being crossed when they visit) But the fear is very hard to shake.

Dear everyone,not had time to read through latest.Rushing off to Hosp again.Poss Section today/tomorrow.If no news from me ,that's why.If still here,will post tonight!...xxxxx

Just wanted to wave to umdefinatelymaybe - sounds like a textbook case of gaslighting, making you think that you were the crazy one.

dignified, these are the fears that haunt me. There's nothing that would justify me getting the court order changed, there's just this feeling that I don't trust him and I know he doesn't respect other people's boundaries. If you come across any good sources of advice, please share.

Good luck PM !!

udm, I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge your post. What you related about your agoraphobia is a terrifying example of how a malign partner can literally disable you. I'm so pleased the condition left you when he did!

In some cases, the effects of psychological manipulation can linger for years - as witnessed in these threads. As you say, you're still getting over it; I feel sure that your recognition of what really happened will help you to heal fully.

Interesting that his girlfriend takes strength from talking to you - that's why I'm in favour of "talking to the ex"!! It must be affirming for you, too, to know that his perceptions are still as skewed as ever, while yours are reconnecting with the real world.
Poor woman: what a journey lies ahead of her ...

Thinking of you, PM, hope all is well.

Umdefinitelymaybe: I can identify with so much about your post, especially the phone calls from banks, utility companies, etc. -- I especially recall an ongoing fight he waged with a credit card company, but left me to deal with them over the phone while he was at work (he only gave them the home number). He would dash off a letter to them and leave me to tackle the collectors when they called. Meanwhile he would pick over the chequebook register looking for mistakes I had made while at the checkout in the supermarket as I dealt with tired and bored DCs whining for sweets, getting the shopping bags together and out of the shop, etc. He would find the odd mistake and there would follow yelling and cursing and occasionally pompously taking chequebook 'privileges' away from me... To the point where I lost all confidence in my ability to do even the simplest money management. How good it feels to have nobody looking over my shoulder now at how I manage things.

Feeling very sorry for your son.

PineMartina, how are you?

Hi Grace and everyone....
I have been back from hospital a week now,following c section delivery which was suggested at my 37 week obs.appt. 2 days after I came out after the false labour.

Baby is tiny and sleepy but doing well.I am sore and emotional and constantly breastfeeding but delighted with her.DC's were all with dads for Easter and have been back almost 5 days,all doting on their sister,all very cosy...

Babys' dad...having stated his wish to be as supportive as possible over Easter,took me to hospital and agreed to be around while section went ahead ,but that Doula wd be with me.

Sadly,crazy mat ward policy meant they only allowed "husbands" to be present at delivery.They wd not allow Doula on the ward.This caused extreme upset and is being taken up as a complaint by Doula.
They then encouraged him to come in and be my support.
It was ok,as he pulled out all the stops to be lovely and was supportive - although hardly the point.Same policy meant only limited visiting though so I had lots of time to be on my own with baby.
When he did visit,or phone,he was emotional,full of love and doting on his daughter.
We talked carefully about our intentions to do the best for our dd,regardless of what may happen with us.He has stated over and over how much he loves me,her,dc's and will support us as best he can.
We have discussed the problems,his issues,how complicated it all is and will always be.
Since being home,he has spent every night with us and has been more support in practical terms than either exh ever was with a newborn.I am washed out,exhausted and constantly feeding.So far he has been respectful,kind,caring and checked out what I have needed him to do,then done it - rather than taken over.The dc's are really pleased he is here,and he is lovely with them.
He has only a toothbrush here.
That is how it will stay.
He goes home after breakfast ,and returns teatime so dc's and I have family time together.
So far no games,moods or monkeytricks.
There will be again.
I need the help.
This is a newborn bubble of unreality that will gradually move towards normal life again as baby and I get stronger.School starts again tomorrow.
I am finding my feelings changing...scales off eyes? Not sure...
I am pretty sure that circumstances are driving this reunion - for us both,he must realise how he nearly lost all contact with his baby girl.
He may yet.
I will post again soon, I am noticing a shift in myself towards him.I am not sure what it is yet ,but I am watching it.
Necessary compromise for now....
I'm ok,though...

Oh,one thing...I found him flicking through "Controlling People" which was on the bedroom floor..
" this is an offensive book" he says...
"how could it be?" I replied
He put it down and neither of us mentioned it again.....

Wow congratulations on the birth of your DD pinemartina! That's really weird that they wouldn't let the doula support you properly as surely the labouring woman's wishes are what matter? Why deny her somebody who CAN support her well, and encourage her to have x partner their... very odd.

Your book is not offensive. Keep strong. Hope somebody else will be along in a moment to tell you how better to ward him off. Despite his being caring etc. You still need to insist on your boundaries and keep him at a distance that YOU are in control of.

I was just thinking of bumping this thread to ask after you all as I had begun to wonder how TRM and YOU are. I have seen Math and It'sGraceAgain about !

Hang on.... reunion? he goes after breakfast?! I'm confused.

Well,I WAS never going to let him back in the house!
We have finished with the restoration work - at least ,I have.He is not doing the shop now,but dealing via auctions ,on his own.

No joint concerns except of course dd and some stuff with my dc's.

He goes off after breakfast to sort out his building,furniture - work in other words - and his space.Rather than be around the house - my space.

So,more like our relationship was at the beginning when we had no commitment to each other.
But we do now
But I don't need him- for me,my needs now.At least I feel like that right now. I am strong inside.I have revised my expectations.Somehow,now I am not pregnant,I am not clinging to the idealistic version of mummy daddy happy family that I have never had but had hoped for.
Time will tell.
From where we are now,his choices will be clear when he does kick off.

Oh, thank you for the update, PM
Congratulations on your new daughter!

It sounds as though you are trying to do what works, for now. Interesting that you find your feelings changing ... I hope this is your poor, squashed-up, silent self, gaining strength and voice. As you say, it'll be interesting to observe.

The toothbrush rule seems fair enough. I wonder how long he will play by your rules? Please stay level, and enjoy your newborn time. Love. x

Hi folks! Feels like a long time away from this thread...
I have been having an emotional meltdown as it has all hit me - I am single! I have been mourning the loss of my marriage and remembering the 'good' bits about my ex, the fact that we used to be friends, the sometimes fun we had.
Anyhow... he has declared himself well and truely over me and I think that had a lot to do with it. It has finally hit home that I am now alone and it will never be 'repaired'. Talk about a delayed reaction...

I have been writing a lot, pouring things out in a journal, which has helped, but can't wait soon enough for my counselling to start. I never knew what people meant by the 'grieving' process before now, but it's raw and hard. Very hard.

Anyway, I have a babysitter arranged for Thursday night! I'm going to go out into the real world and face it full on! Not quite sure what I am going to do just yet...probably sit in a hotel bar and read a book! but it's something I have to do.

PM hang in there hun, and lots of love to your little bundle x