Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

Thank you ItsGraceAgain , midnightoil and saddest. Logged on again this morning and am in floods of tears now. Its so powerful to be validated.fluxy3 the quote from balloon slayer is me ,too except I keep on hanging on.
It's like having a relationship with 2 different men,but never knowing which one you will get - sometimes from minute to minute,other times,just when life seems to be normal and stable at last then BANG and it's trauma and fear again.
I have a huge collection of books - self help and professional (I am a registered therapist and MH professional of 25 yrs - HA!LOL much good that has done my personal life)
I consider myself knowledgeable and insightful re PD,PTSD,NPD.I am trained to offer CBT for psychosis and schema work....This is NOT a boastful CV - I just can't get over what is going on here.
My p has been having therapy - schema work and EMDR for 2 years.He was ritually abused in the most horrendous way for years as a child.He has a pretty good understanding of his schema's and the triggers and will go for long periods of stability where he can "catch" and stop hot thoughts and remain real.At these times,he keeps his insight and accepts responsibility.He doesn't "lose it" and things are great for us all.
At these times,I feel happy,secure and optimistic.I believe change is possible ,if the individual accepts responsibility for their behaviour and remains motivated and engaged with support.
BUT
When it goes nuclear - like now- I go through either both or one of these responses:
I'm aware of a subtle shift in him which is a slow or rapid build-up,usually irritation with one or all children - but,hey,that's normal isn't it,in all families - sometimes we can nip it in the bud ,diffuse and move on.Other times I wrestle with my mounting anxiety that we are heading for a blow up -torn between empathy,love,the wish to support ,grow from this,not lose it all,keep the family together,get the good stuff back...and increasing sadness ,anger ,outrage at his controlling me in this way - and me allowing it.It is deliberate I know,I don't excuse him on any grounds,it is learnt behaviour with gains for him and though it may be driven by whatever schema and fear of intimacy/abandonment he sometimes still CAN stop ,so should be able to limit damage at the very least - ie by going out the door when hot -Obviously there are choices for us both....
Then,when he blows I can sometimes stand firm ,retain an inner sense of control and observe without engaging,waiting for him to leave or stop and burst into tears,apologising profusely.OR I experience my own buttons being pushed and fight back - all done verbally,never any hint or threat of physical violence whatsoever,but my god,I'd recover more quickly from a slap -punch even - than some of the insults I 've heard.
If I fight back I have of course lost all ground as described by many here - he will maintain forever that the particular incident was CAUSED by me.
He is a master of word twisting and will invent his own reality after an event which is then the only truth acceptable.
If he goes.I will either be devastated and desperate to get him back - rarely ever now- or initially exhausted,traumatised and desperately sad followed by an emerging clarity that this is an opportunity for escape and that I must make sure THIS IS IT,DON'T GO BACK.....
BUT
I then start to miss the good times.The kids want him home.A booked holiday comes up ,complicated childcare issue,long week on my own when all 4 kids are at their fathers....etc and he gets to be the rescuer again..everything is passionate,exciting wonderful...what a relief,so glad I didn't tell anyone what went on ,so everyone accepts his coming and going as part of a healthy relationship with a wonderful man - I'm so lucky - they say - after such bad luck in two previous marriages,to finally have a real man who is tough ,strong and sensitive and does SO MUCH for us all.Who ever else would do all that for a single mother with such past issues? Come on.it's hard to trust after what you've been through,give the guy a break,he loves you deeply,you're so in tune creatively,don't punish him for your exes' failures ,you're afraid of intimacy,no relationship is perfect we all have ups and downs.....
I can see clearly,today, that my children should not have to walk on eggshells any more,or god forbid,internalise the implication that their behaviour (existence?)is what destabilises the otherwise ideal family they are so lucky to finally have.
I cant bear the ongoing anxiety ,the waiting and watching the appeasing,mediating,pleasing everyone but me stuff I do when he's here.
BUT
I am due to have his baby in 3 weeks
It is - in practical terms - hugely more difficult,esp. now ,without him
The children want the new baby to have her Dad with us,They want the ideal,the happy set up
I want that too.I've never had close to that, and this is close,often
BUT.....
What would anyone else do - in hindsight?
I know I have to make my decisions
BUT...

Sorry for such a long post.I have found it a relief just to type this

Thank you Unlikelyamazonian. We are not married,thank God,and have no shared assets.
You are right about the birth certificate.
I am afraid by the thought of becoming his enemy.When he realises I mean it,he will reinvent everything and "fix" his version in his mind forever,acting accordingly.
I hear him talk about others from his past- long ,long ago- and how powerfully he feels.
He believes in revenge
He has nothing to lose
He is not physically dangerous and has no criminal past
BUT
I will never be free
Probably we wd have to relocate
I do know I can do this - I have done it before,I've survived so much since I was a child..but I don't want to keep fighting and running all my life....
I have so much on my plate
How can I hang on to the clarity I have now,when it wd be simpler to step back into the mirror?

The only thing that worries pinamartina is that when you are at your most critical time of bonding with your new baby he will be thwarting it at every turn to make you feel weaker and more useless. You have so much on your plate, I so feel for you. I left my ex-n pregnant too, but I only had the one other child to consider. I moved back to England then stupidly took him back just before I had my baby for a last chance and my own fear of what was to come. This time I had a baby girl, he felt threatened and unsure of girls so luckily we were left to bond. Unlike with my son who he constantly took off me and berated me for doing 'things wrong'. In his eyes I was an unworthy candidate to be around his offspring and was only good for being a half adequate babysitter when he was out....often.

With my daughter he baulked at the bond he may share with a tiny female being but still used any opportunity to weaken me with insults and criticism. I made him sleep in the spare room for the entire bonding process, before I eventually ended it for the final time after he pushed me and my baby daughter over in a park.

He worships his 30 yr old daughter,even though she sees him about three times a year for lunch ! She has a dd and ds and he has barely ever seen his g'c - but rationalises this as down to her dh who he fell out with years ago..oh and her m,his ex-w ,who he describes in apalling terms despite they were married 23 yrs.She was surely miserable the whole time ,i'd love to speak to her!His ds is currently not speaking to him - not sure real reason as I'm told it's because he thinks I am ruining his fathers life by having a baby....
He maintains that his ex couldn't have cared less about their kids and that he did everything for them...I don't believe it at all but I fear that he will be desperate to control and take over everything with this one.He will be desperate not to lose it.I believe this is a girl.He is warmer to my dd's than my ds whom he is very critical of.He criticizes his own ds for being just like his mother.He has his dd on a gold pedestal and talks of her childhood as if she was - and still- is a faultless princess who worshipped him more perfectly than any other person in his life......(A phone call from her would trump ANY other committment - including the birth of this baby I am sure)I met her briefly once and think we cd have got on well,but of course I am now told that she too hates me for all the trouble I've caused her dad -I'm sure that's a lie.

Hmm ... I guess it's easier to keep them in the Idealisation phase when you only see them once a year! I bet she knows that, too

PM, you may think you're joking when you say it'd be good to talk to his first wife. But why don't you? Dependent on her current state of mental health (!), you may even provide each other with precious validation.

OMG the consequences of trying to get hold of her and him finding out don't bear thinking about.I cd only get her details from his dc's and they wd tell him straight away even if I cd speak to them which I can't as I don't have numbers.I am sure she wd validate my perspective, though,as I'm sure his ds wd given half the chance.He would surely have a hard job creating a believable reality around not living with or having much access to ,his baby.They wd surely realise,whatever he said ,that his behaviour was the root,since why on earth wd I otherwise wish to cope alone.Maybe they will contact me one day if they are curious about the baby.

PM, so....this P of yours has a thirty year old daughter and a son and an ex-wife of 23 years.

And he makes out that you are the one nobody would want? - ie single parent of four dc with horrid exes? Well blimey, he isn't much of a catch himself is he.

He must be knocking fifty or more, has a bitter ex wife, two children, one of whom he barely sees and whose own children - his Gc - he has never met....Well based on this alone, if I met him now, I would run a bloody mile.

He is saying to you all the things he knows to be true about himself: he is a shit catch.
I think N's just go round creating more offdspring for supply. My exH-n had two daughters by his previous partner and a son with me and no doubt is procreating more with all those Thai birds he is shagging. It gives them some sense of virility or something.

is relocating impossible? It doesn't sound like it...you just should not be feeling like this and articulating such frightened throughts so close to having a baby with him. You should be excited and proud and all that kind of thing.

And yes when the baby is born he will go around showing outsiders how helpful he is and supportive and caring and you will be dying inside.

one last thing, FWIW, I am dead jealous of you having four children. I would have loved to have had more and am tempted to just adopt a handful now. Only I am too old and too poor and i smnoke too much so wouldn't be allowed probably

I bet you are a fantastic mother. If you can ditch him soon after the baby is born, will you have RL support and friends to help you? Is your oldest child able to help out a bit?

Pinemartina, you are in the grip of a very malignant optimism about this relationship. You are holding out so much hope for him and his therapy, trying to see little improvements and placing so much faith in the possibility that somehow things will work out. You hope his older family will somehow be curious about the baby and try to forge a connection with you. You are very enmeshed with this man and his life and the family he has done his best to keep from you (and who clearly want nothing much to do with him). Your self esteem has been taken and flushed down the loo by this man (and the others before him).

Can you get yourself to any kind of counseling? You need to build yourself up again and start to take back control of your life. Don't try to do it without backup for yourself. The people you know in RL need to be told all of what's going on. You need your friends to rally around you. It's very humiliating to go to people and reveal the truth, but your silence is what is enabling the abuse to continue, abuse of you and abuse of the children. Maybe you could start with your midwife or doctor? You need to swallow your pride and reach out to people you know. It will be very hard. But things are not going to improve with this man. There is no effort or wish on your part that matters enough for him to change; despite the therapy he is undergoing, he is inflicting his demons on you and on defenceless children. None of you needs this drama in your lives. There is nothing you can do , despite your education and training and your feelings for him, that can give you any control over this situation.

I think your education and training may be your enemy here to a certain extent, because you have higher expectations of yourself, and the "should have", "should be" and "shoulds" in general are only serving to help you to beat yourself up. Are you able to be your own best friend? What would that involve?

Can you ditch the high expectations you have of yourself in this situation and see that there's no way for you to be simultaneously victim and therapist for this man? You know the dynamic, you can label everything that happens, and you can understand the whys and the wherefores. But none of it is good for you; everything in this relationship is for him. You don't owe him anything.

This man has a script in his head that will take him through his whole life. He will end up with a long string of people in his wake who will not be talking to him, and some like his daughter who will keep him at arm's length. There will be the people he demonises, like his ex wife, and eventually you -- Pinemartina, there's nothing you can do about how this man will badmouth you and judge you and find you completely lacking. There's no way you can control that. There's no reason to either.

Thanks for making me laugh !!! You are so right,he is 57 I am 41.
Trouble with relocating is my kids are in bi -lingual education here and eldest dd is just taking options.She is most confident in her 1st language - which isnt mine and I wd like to go FAR away back to civilisation,but she wd not be able to continue school in both languages.
They have all been through so much change and although all 4 are very resilient and extremely helpful,I want them to have some stability.Moving would so not do that.
Thanks for the positives.I always wanted lots of children and am so glad that I have.Most people (hereabouts,in the land that time forgot)think I am unfortunate at best,completely mad/irresponsible at worst.I kind of do wish I fit in some conventional box,but sadly don't and cant - chose to live in the wrong place here ....

Pinemartina, weigh it up. What's better for your DD, exposure to a second language plus exposure to this nutjob abuser, or a stable life with a loving mother and no worries about walking on eggshells? When she looks back, what will she see in her childhood? Will she consider the second language was worth it?

thanks mathanxiety. You are right. I am giving myself an extra hard time for choosing another man who is no good for me,I have so wanted that not to be the case and to make it all ok for me and the children.It's so hard to admit to myself that I am being abused again when I have worked so hard all my life to break free from abuse.What kind of script must I be living out.I have to change track somehow.I have drastically relocated after each previous relationship in order to re-build. I am getting low on inner resources and self-belief.

I can read this thread, see a million therapists, gp's nuses, experts at womens aid, and all of you on here, and read all the books in the world.

I start to get a handle on it.

He came to pick up dd.

In that few minutes I was called a bully, that I'd pushed him over the edge, that I was spreading lies about him. I was ruining his reputation and that I am a terrible mother.

I feel sick, shaky and tearful.

I engaged. Bollocks.

I told him he was text book, and what my therapist said about "where he learned his parenting skills". I told him he would not pass on his shit and his father's shit onto my kids. I asked him what he would do when dd started to have her own opinions, would she then cease to exist?

Then I told him to get out.

He has a new bed for dd in his car. I can't protect her from this can I?

aaaaaaagggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!

Try to get beyond the fear of what other people will think. Your pride is not your best friend here. And try not to see yourself as the one at fault either. Look at what you have going for you, both emotionally and practically -- you had the gumption to extricate yourself from relationships with your previous exes and carry on, with your children, taking good care of them and doing your best. You are loving and responsible and what you want out of life is what everyone wants, and what everyone should have. You have done this before and you're not facing into the complete unknown without any prior experience.

To a certain extent it's maybe spectacular bad luck that left you dealing with yet another loser, but in the case of Ns, I believe there's a deliberate element of deception involved. He deceived himself as well as you, about what he was really like, which is maybe why it's so hard to spot them early in a relationship. They are fantastic actors. Time enough to start wondering about your own script when you're free of all of this though. Your main problem is him, not you. You need a quick getaway and now is not the time to reinvent your 'wheel', your personality. The things to focus on now are the practicalities of dealing with the arrival of the baby, then extricating yourself physically, financially and legally from this relationship.

You can build yourself back up again but you have to reach out and ask for the RL support you and the children need. You need the inner resources and self-belief but some of this comes from 'just doing it', on your own and without a man, Rosie the Riveter-style. A big relocation is only going to take you so far though. The scenery isn't the place to start when making the changes in perspective, but again, first things first action is needed here.

I'd just like to back up everything Mathanxiety said - I was cheering out loud on reading it! And also, PM ... Your daughter can catch up on her education, should she want or need to. But there's only one more chance to show her what a stable and contented home feels like, before she goes off to forge her way in the world, choose partners and set up her own home.

Saddest, did he go off with dd?

Frankly, there is something you can do here I think:

If he is in the slightest bit bullying or nnasty to you when he comes to your house to pick up dd, then close the door on him and do not allow him to have her at that time.

You possibly need to get this in a solicitor's letter to him:
There is no reason for you to part with your daughter if you think he is a bullish mood which leakves you frightened and shaking.

You are dd's main carer. Do not let him victimise you in this way.

You engaged. Ok so you feel like shit because of that. You will do it differently next time.

Do not let your DD go with him if he is a shit to you. For your DDs sake. Have a think about this. You are not doing anything evil and you are not using your DD as a pawn in doing this. You have to be the one setting an example here, in the midst of all this intimidating bullying crap.

When I say close the door, I mean explain politely to him that while he is behaving like this to you, you feel unable and unwilling to allow her to get in the car with him. Tell him that you are now going to close ther door and request that he leaves quietly or you may try to call for some help as you are feeling harrassed by him. No shouting. Remain calm. No bad mouthing. No tears. Just look bored and over-it. But insist he leaves.

I am serious: he is playing his shitty game but you are allowing the game he is engaging in with you, to affect your DD. You need again to step away and be the grown up here. I know you can do it.

Please go on holiday and get some some on your bones. These Ns love the drama and to feel the victim. I wonder if he has another partner in tow? It might all be show for her (tales when he gets home etc)

What UA said. Call the police if he gets belligerent. They are very likely to believe your version of events. He will not look good ranting and raving and trying to force his way into your home, all in the sight of a small child. The police are not dummies and have seen dv scenes before, including many at the time of child handovers. They are mostly well clued in on what's going on and who needs to back off and leave whom alone.

Make sure you have the DD's bag packed and that you seem to be prepared to go through with the handover, not just manufacturing a scene to prevent him from getting agreed-upon access. When you seem to have been prepared for the visit to take place, it's far more believable that you became genuinely concerned for her safety when he arrived and you saw his demeanour. He can't accuse you of just trying to thwart his access to his DD and making things up about him for the police if you can point to the overnight bag or her little bag of toys or whatever she brings on visits normally.

He swears that there is no one else.

I would generally believe that as he is very reclusive. Always has been. He is nearky 50 and our is his longest relationship at seven years.

His last was some years ago for three years and I think slightly less for the one before that.

That's not a lot I suppose is it?

Not very N, but his way of dealing with being so different from everyone else?

I still can't bear the lies and false accusations. But at least it's not every day now. How the hell did I get through each day when it was from morning till night?

I think that we live in shock a lot of the time...all of us here.

I AM NOT A BULLY, A LIAR OR A SHIT MUM!

Just for the record.

He's just dropped her off. He sat there in the dining room. Just sat.

He called me a liar. He said that I had "kicked" him out. I didn't...I asked to not come back until he had sought help.

HE then asked my son if he thought he was an abuser.

I told him to leave.

Disgusting fucking pig.

You are engaging with it.

He shouldn't be sitting in the dining room.

You have to try to get a hold of this situation.

Why does he come inside the house when he is dropping her off?

I am failing to understand now

That's why it kicked off....because I asked him why he was sitting there. He said he wanted to say goodbye to dd.

She was playing in another room....the bubble wrap from my new studio stuff.

He said, "oh you're kicking me out again" I said no I am not, I am asking you to leave.

He then called me a liar, and that I had kicked him out in february. I said, yes because I'm a bouncer, don't be ridiculous.

I said "I will not be accused of this stuff in front of my children, please leave"

At which point ds came in the room and h asked him if he thought that he was an abuser.

At which point I was in danger of really losing my temper and opened the door and asked him to leave.

He went outside, I closed and locked the door. He just stood there staring at me.

I ignored him but thought about possiblr ringing the police if he didn't go.

He did go thankfully.

How could I have done it differently? I have been advised that I have no right to keep him out of the house, and that the court proceeding to get that would be long and expensive.

ok saddest I can't find part one of this thread aand I can't remember your full back-story. What I am saying is, is he meant to be still living at your place? You are still married? He is living where then?

if you hasve asked him to leave ('kicked him out' in his words) and he has left, then he has aquiesced for now and this is your perfect window to get proper access arrangements set up and/or solicitor involved

I take it you are both trying to get divorced?
(sorry if I am completely off the radar here)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/912099-He-has-gone-for-the-third-and-last-time

I don't know if I have linked that properly.

No he moved into his flat last thursday.

I have seen a solicitor a couple of times now.

He has contact one afternoon per week after school, and one afternnon at the weekend. He wants her to stay at his flat. He doesn't seem interested in ds anymore. He asked him to go out the first weekend but ds had made plans with his mates, so h never asked again.

I am due to start counselling again soon.

This is classic behaviour for an N when you try to leave. They deny you your absolute prerogative to end a relationship (something which is completely taken for granted in the normal World).

In the N's mind, there can be some sort of Kangaroo court where you have to 'prove' your allegations, and witnesses (such as your son) can be called in to discredit your 'case'.

This is just CLASSIC.

As UA says, don't engage, pick a stock phrase and repeat it over and over and over again. Something that he can't argue with such as "i no longer want to be in this relationship". No matter what he says, reply like a dripping tap "I no longer want to be in this relationship".

Avoid getting into the 'court case' where you feel you have to justify why you feel abused so that you have the 'right' to want to end the relationship. You don't have to prove nothing to nobody!!!

I second everything Maggie just said Saddest. At least, that has been my experience of seperating from my ex. Although he had physically moved out, he was not/still will not accept that we have ended the discussions about our marriage. And they have been the same one sided discussions that have been going on for years with the new twist 'who was the most abusive' thrown in.

I have been hammered over the past 7 months with communications from him trying to discuss our relationship. He dare not do it verbally because there is a safety order in place, but he has found other means of continuing to 'have his say'.

At presesnt he is pissed off with me and has withdrawn from e mailing etc. But that won't last.
I am doing my hardest to ignore and be neutral around him, not respond to any personnal comments he makes when he picks up the dc. I don't even let him set foot into the house.

I sympathise with you though, and I know how easy it is to get drawn back in emotionally - especially when you have learned so much about this disorder and can see right through him now. It makes me less forgiving and less doubtful - more confident I suppose in my unwillingness to listen to him anymore.

Of course, the last few months are beginning to take their toll on me now. It is all catching up on me horribly and yet another broken nights sleep last night has finally led me to ringing my doctor for an appointment next week. I feel a bit dazed tbh, hard to describe - not depressed exactly, but just a bit shell-shocked by the whole trying to make sense of everything and cope.
Does this make any sense to anybody?