How do you know when you should just give up on trying to save your marriage and just walk away?

[teaandcakeplease]

Sorry this is fairly long.

My husband and I separated in October, after I discovered that he'd lied to me in a rather elaborate and horrible deception. He told me he was going away on a Christian Retreat for a week. He said he really needed to go. He even showed me the website. He then, a week before he went away, said he'd bumped into someone he used to work with, who had become a Christian and had chartered a private flight to the nearest airport for the retreat as he had arranged a big trip for a group of people from his church, and that he was now going to fly to Wales for the retreat (I suppose I'm very guillible as I always wanted to believe the best in him and didn't question this). His parents gave him the £300 for the retreat, they transferred it into my account and I withdrew the money for him (they did this, as he's not very good with money). Before he left, a few times I noticed him on his laptop looking at hotels from a distance. As he works on the dining table, which is in the lounge, if he is at home, We live in a small 2 bed flat so there's not much scope for him to work easily at home. Anyway, I asked why he was looking at hotels and he told me that a friend from years ago was coming over and wanted DH to help find him a hotel. I suppose looking back I should have realised it was all a pile of codswallop. Anyway he promised he'd call me everyday whilst away, needless to say I didn't hear from him for 24 hours, then I get a stressed phone call from a call box and he said he'd had to borrow a land rover from the retreat and had had to drive all over the place to find a phone box to call me as he didn't get any reception there and he wouldn't be able to call me at all whilst away. I heard a dog barking in the background and some voices. I said to him what's going on in the background, he suddenly made excuses and hung up. Half way through the week, I decided to call and leave a message on the answerphone, not entirely sure why looking back, but there was something I wanted to talk to him about. I dialled the number and got an international ring tone! With a sinking feeling I realised he was lying to me about being in Wales. He hung up as fast as he could and sent me to answerphone, but it was too late. He then sent me a text full of bullsh*t excuses on why I got an international ring tone. I replied to his text and said you're lying (not very politely) he then said no no the truth is I diverted my phone to a friend for a week who lives abroad, as I couldn't get reception. I replied again and said you're lying. He then said no no the truth is blah blah, the texts went back and forth until I told him I'd ring the retreat and check if he was staying there. Needless to say he went quiet at that point. I did ring the retreat as even though he only showed me the website very quickly before going away, I happened to remember the name and therefore looked up the number. I was fortunate enough that despite data protection, the lady at the other end after checking with her manager agreed to tell me, and that my DH had not stayed there at all.

I actually rang DH dad after this, as I was in shock. I asked him where my hubby had told him he was going. He said the same place as me. I burst into tears and said he's not there. Bizarrely enough his dad came to see me and offered to let me come and stay with him. I think he was just very cross and disappointed with his son and he also loves his grandchildren. On DH arrival back in the UK at an airport his dad and brother decided to go and meet him and get the truth out of him. He kept lying and lying with more elaborate stories every minute, until his brother forced him to produce his ticket. He'd been in Greece all week.

I was hurt he'd lied to me. I was also hurt as I hadn't had a decent holiday all year as we have no money. All I'd had was 3 days in Llanelli and my hubby had had to go back to work for some of that and leave me down in Wales. I was also upset as our daughter was in tears when I dropped him off for the holiday and crying "daddy gone, daddy lost" and I'd said to her it's ok he'll be back in a week, he's just going away somewhere to help him relax etc. So he not only duped me but his beautiful 2 year old daughter. We also have a son who was only 9 months at the time but he's a mummy's boy and doesn't mind where daddy is. My daughter has been exhibiting troubling behaviour in the last year, probably with daddy coming and going for days every week and her just not understanding why and feeling unsettled and then of course when he was there, the tension and sometimes open conflict between her parents, as I was struggling so much with being left on my own all the time.

The thing is we've been separated ever since this incident but he still can't be straight with me on who he went with. We had had an altercation back in September and he'd said he'd had an affair but it was over. He did lie about who the affair was with and when at this point. He also made up a hugely elaborate story on where he had been going weekly for 2 nights for months and months. He started disappearing for two-four nights weekly or fortnightly from February when our son was only 4 weeks old and suffering with horrendous colic, so at that point I was dealing with a jealous 18 month old daughter and a very unhappy baby on my own. I have spent the last year on my own with our two kids 99.99% of the time but my husband always seemed to have a good reason and I always believed him. I have 4 brothers all who are married happily. My parents have been married for over 40 years and are still happy. I have a lovely big family, I love my children and wanted them to grow up in a stable loving home with both parents. I desperately want to work things out. My husband is now having counselling but he cannot tell me when he will move back in, he cannot cope with looking after the kids on his own, never has been able to. I always had to take one with me. Our wedding anniversary in December he missed as he wanted to stay with a friend, New Years he claimed he was working for Blue Arrow and staying with a friend called "Jack" and now Valentines day he is away as well with "Jack" and working with Blue Arrow. This Jack only appeared in November once all his lies were found out. He goes to stay with him once a week or fortnight for several days and I keep asking for proof he exists, proof the affair is over and proof he worked for blue arrow, as truthfully I think he is still carrying the affair on and it's not over. Except he never provides proof but keeps insisting the affair is over.

I feel like I've morphed from a relaxed trusting person, into a paranoid maniac.

I've sent him a long e-mail over the weekend basically saying I cannot go on like this, and I need evidence the affair is over whether he shows me texts, e-mails or calls her whilst I listen in. As every time he goes to see "Jack" all I think is, is he with her? Whenever he goes away I dream about them, all the fear, rage and panic comes back and all the memories of the lies he has told etc. But even though I'd told him I need reassurance that the affair is over, he will not provide it. He seems to just think I'm having a moment and will cool down again. I think he thinks I will always be here waiting for him until he gets his head straight.

What would you do? Please be gentle with me...

they will only change if/when they want to.

You at least have the choice to not allow him to treat you like this - whatever the outcome

"lying is not what he does, it's who he is."

That resonates with me quite a lot. Your dad is a wise man. I keep hoping as he is having counseling he can change but your dad might be right.

depends whether he is lying to himself

I do believe that sometimes the truth is just a pov and if he believes his version and is happy with that you will never get him to 'accept' he is at fault

My h looks back on his affair and cringes at the 'lies' he even believed himself.
Having decided to change he now asks himself the 'right' questions iyswim

I haven't got loads to say, but I just wondered about the big dichotomy in your mind between the other marriages in your family, and your own.

Any lengthy marriage will go through some diabolical times. I think the very best people to talk to would be those who have remained married for a long time in your family, because you may actually find that they will judge you the least, while also understanding your wish to stay married if it's possible. They will also give you more of the support you need, since your h appears not to have understood his own vows - cherish is spelt 'cherish' not 'shit on'.

OK I'll say that I don't see how it's possible for you to bear this behaviour! - there would have to be BIG changes. But I do know that it's possible to get through phases when you think there's no way on earth you can, if things do change.

Best wishes.

I think if you can open up about your problems to others you will find that no marriage is ever perfect and i have found fantastic support from so many people because we are both more open.

I would never tell anyone to stay - but equally i have seen the heartbreak of when marriages fail -especially when dc are involved.
It is never black and white

Teaandcakeplease

Don't you see lovey he has already made his decision? By not ending the relationship with OW/moving on/asking for forgiveness/stepping up to be a committed H and father that is his decision; to keep on doing what he has been doing all these months.

He is just too cowardly to verbalise it.

You deserve so much more and truly hope you get it too.

"I do believe that sometimes the truth is just a pov"

Am I being dense here on what "pov" means. Not great on abbreviations on mumsnet at the best of times...

pov = point of view

Teaandcake - honestly, this is madness. Why would you want to pass over the decision making about your life to this man? No family member, no church leader, no society would castigate someone leaving a marriage in these circumstances. Critically, no child would ever look back as an adult and wished that their Mum had stayed and put up with this crap.

Your adult children on the other hand might look back in years to come and blame you for not putting them first and giving them the opportunity of a better father figure, or a better example of an honest adult relationship. Sorry if that seems harsh, but it's what you'd tell your daughter.

You're young - you will meet someone better if that's what you want.

You need to say "enough" now....and take back control of your life.

I know what you're saying whenwillifeelnormal but equally I don't want them to think I didn't try to save it either.

You'll say I've done more than enough now though won't you?

The good thing about mumsnet is that people are honest. Friends sometimes don't tell you what they really think, as they don't want to hurt you.

You have tried to save it - you've tried harder than anyone should be expected to. More than you should have done, in fact.

Question your motives really carefully about this - is it really about the children's view of your efforts, or is this about you not being able to let go?

When you look back at this point in years to come, you will see the fork in the road. You will bitterly regret the path not taken - which is away from him.

We don't want to hurt you either, but we can afford to be more robust! If you are offended by anyone on here you can ignore us or tell us off, but your RL friends have more to lose.

teaandcakeplease, I fully understand you wanting to be able to tell your children you did everything you could to save your marriage to their dad. I felt the same when I separated from my DS's dad over two years ago. I felt I had to keep trying for long enough to convince myself I'd made a real effort. And then I was ready to give up on it completely. It just takes time - and a different length of time for different people in this kind of situation - to reach that point where you just know it's over.

I come from a family where no one has divorced, and I too felt strongly that I should try to make things work out. But what I've learned over the past few years is that what children really hate is tension, whether their parents are together or not. And I've noticed - as my ex and I have become better at co-parenting well together and being friendly and co-operative, and from observing the relationships of some friends - that DS is now growing up with much less tension than some of his peers whose parents are together and arguing almost constantly, or who don't talk. Of course it isn't a perfect set-up, and DS was very angry initially and it's taken time for this new arrangement to settle down - but it isn't anywhere near as grim as popular opinion would have us believe. It can actually be quite positive.

I now feel that I did everything I could to repair the relationship. DS is not the troubled child I thought he might be but in fact happy and secure now he knows what's what. I will have (I hope) taught him something valuable along the lines of boundaries in relationships, self-respect and what we do and don't put up with. And I now feel that being apart from my ex is 100% the right decision for me. If you'd have told me two years ago that I'd feel this positive, I wouldn't have believed you. It takes time to reach this point, and no amount of people telling you to make a clean break will get you to this point of certainty any quicker. I just hope you do get there, and fairly soon, because you and your children will be so much happier.

Good luck. x

Thanks rumbled your testimony is encouraging if I do find the strength to walk away and not leave the decision to him, as the future with the children looks bleak to me without a stable father figure and the associated arguing over who gets the kids when etc.

well he isnt a stable father figure right now is he? lying, cheating, doesnt know what he wants...

if he comes back to you, you will never know if is for real... so fact is he isn't stable. maybe never will be. that is life.

it may be if he makes the choice to leave that he can settle and become more stable as a father, having the kids on set times.

arguing over who gets kids when - well that will be if he wants to argue (if you want to argue over it - if you can sit and agree eg wtih emdiator a schedule then it doesnt have to be difficult) .

you can provide stability for the kids - he cannot.

teaandcake - my dad was a wise man, honest to the core and when he said that to me it was a turning point in my decision making.

I know you want a stable father figure for your kids, but it is equally important that your children see their mother being treated with love and respect, both by a partner and by herself.

The message we send to our daughters when we sell ourselves short by accepting far far less than we should can have a profound impact in how they see themselves as women and their expectations from relationships.

You do your children no favours by perpetuating a situation in which their father figure is unrealiable and dishonest. Of course he will always be this person, but as cestlevie points out, it may only be the end of your relationship that prompts him to reexamine this.

At the least, they will understand that their mother values herself too highly to be treated poorly, and this is a far greater example to set for them.

He's really been trying hard since solicitor appointment. Been over lots to see kids, help around house, cook dinner. Has been much more apologetic and transparent these last few days. Still on a "break" from her but said he is realising what he'd loose with me lately and is rapidly coming to the conclusion that he wants his life with me (his words tonight before leaving.)

Maybe its a blip, maybe not. He is definitely trying. I want to wait a little longer and see how it pans out but I really appreciate your testimonies, honesty and your thoughtfulness in how you share with me.

I will set a time limit on it but I definitely do not want what Rycie describes with my daughter EVER. She is right.

But he is still having regular counseling and I'm due to start some soon, so I can process this as well. The waiting list is 6 weeks. I only registered last week. But it will come round soon enough and be good for me to talk to someone about it all.

That sounds like he may be seeing you for what you really are - a strong woman who will not allow him to come and go.

It is hard now - you have the chance to really get what you want (if he is able to deliver).

Divorce takes a long time so make the most of this time - do not promise him anything (like not going ahead) you have so many chances to stop it anyway but that will be YOUR decision and not his. If he gets angry by this then he is not ready.

My h did this too - funny how when solicitors are involved it makes it so much more real.

If you ever do want to make a go of it now you must state your conditions - ones that you will be able to live with.

these will probably be
zero contact with ow
any contact you are to know about
total honesty and willingness to talk about it
relate
no promises from you

and anything else you feel is missing from your needs - from more help around the house to having some time off for you.

Dont be weak now though - stay strong and hold out for what you deserve.
Good luck.

Teaandcake - I really admire how honest and open you're being in what is an extremely difficult and painful time for you.

I think counselling is fantastic, for anyone in any situation, but particularly in a time like this. I do understand that you want to work this out, but I would encourage you to keep things as they are (i.e. he living elsewhere) for as long as it takes for _you, not him, to get clarity about what you want.

The longer it takes the better really, because if he is really serious about changing and wanting to be the man you need him to be then he will wait for you for years. As he should.

You will then see how real and true his intentions are, its too easy when we're faced with the prospects of losing something to commit to new ways of behaving that are in fact unsustainable.

But I suspect it may be that when the dust has settled and you have some distance on it that you will see the relationship differently. I've made the point before, and Sapphire says it as well - everything is clearer in retrospect. For when you give up the fear of losing him, you can calmly evaluate - is this what I want?

Keep being honest with yourself, and try not to make decisions based on fear - they are always our worst choices.

i did take my h back - but I have seen real change in him. He did some counselling alone and although it has taken him a long time he really does know himself better.

I now would not go back to the pre-affair husband - i have a new improved version.

The changes in me are for the good too - never again will i put up with the crap he gave me before.
We both know this and so have a far better relationship.

Our old marriage is dead but our new one is so much better in so many ways.

That is what i mean by getting what you want now. And yes he will wait for you if that is what he truly wants too.

Take your time to get to know what is right for you and its ok to change your mind - that is why i say give no promises now.

I'm following this with interest teaandcake. I caught DH for having a weird affair and doing stupid things a few weeks back and am just now starting to feel the anger. But I seem to be still unable to kick his sorry ass out which makes me feel very annoyed with myself as that would be the obvious thing to do. I'm hoping that with a bit more time, I'll know deep down what I want as so far I've lived in a blur for too long. Some days I feel clearly that all is finished and the following day I want to stay.

America this book has been a great help to me. Worth reading.

An update for all your lovely ladies who've walked with me through this.

The weekend before Easter my daughter got very ill with suspected tonsillitis. My H on the Friday had an interview in London, he then stayed in London most of the day and had another appointment at a recruitment agency later in the day. He called me much later in the day to say "do you still need me to come by tonight and help with DD, as you told me she was poorly" I said yes and he then confessed he'd met up with the OW whilst in London. I was speechless and said how I didn't understand, he'd agreed to be a on a break until he made his mind up, why did he do this? He said "you don't really want me to answer the question. I really missed her" Cue me getting very upset and emotional and saying you need to make a decision. I can no longer go on like this. He then said, "so you still want me to come over tonight?" and I said "no, I feel too sick at what you've done." Unknown to me, he then headed up to Mancs and spent weekend with OW as well. Presumably drove her back from London or something?

My DD was really ill and all weekend she barely slept and was distraught and kept asking for daddy. I kept texting him to tell him how ill she was, but he didn't reply. I didn't realise to begin with, he wasn't at his dads, until his dad spoke to me later in the weekend

On Monday my friend watched my DS whilst I took DD to GP, where it was diagnosed and she was given antibiotics. My friend was so mad at my H, as I'd had no sleep for 4 days that she texted him herself. He of course called her and then rushed down from Mancs to see her.

On arrival he said that if he'd known how ill she was, he'd have come sooner. Naturally I said I'd tried to tell him many times. To which he replied that last year I texted him to tell him the kids were ill and when he turned up, they weren't that bad. I at that point said do you hear what you are saying, unless the kids are really ill, you don't want to come home from your affair partner??? You should be here with me and the children, it shouldn't be a case of me convincing you the children are poorly for you to come back from the OW.

Since that weekend he hasn't worn his wedding ring. He also went yesterday to see a room to rent in Notts! Which is flippin' miles away. It would take about 2 hrs and 40 mins in good traffic from here to Notts. For someone who barely has two pennies to rub together, as he is still unemployed and on JSA, how could he possibly afford petrol to see DCs? It seems to me that even if he cannot verbally tell me things are over, that they in fact must be. As Notts isn't that far from Mancs where the OW lives. OW also grew up Notts and has lots of friends there, she is studying at Mancs university right now. So perhaps this is a solution, so it's not such a drive to kids or the OW, living somewhere towards centre of both locations?

To me this idea of living there really upsets me, as he will barely see our DCs and they're so small still and love their daddy so much. Regardless of if we resolve things, I want them to know their daddy

It's now 5 months since we separated, for a while it looked so hopeful. A lot of this nonsense triggered after his counselor changed lately. But after the most recent revelations, I am starting to reconsider what I told you guys on 10 March 19:21, the divorce paperwork to set it in motion is in my car completed.

H hasn't returned to his Dads house since viewing room in Notts yesterday, he claims he's staying with a friend in Notts now and isn't with the OW. He told me today that he doesn't think his love for the children is enough to work things through, as we do not have the same connection as he does with the OW.

So WWYD ladies?

gawd, what a roller coaster

you have to bin him...permanently

I don't know what else to say that hasn't been said before

do not listen to soft-soap pretty words

he has made his decision by putting such distance between himself and Dh

so clear where his priorities lie

please stop listening to what this tosser says and watch what he does

it speaks volumes