Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

Dittany, I despair of your world in which every sexual move would have to be discussed and agreed to prior to being made.

Rape cases involving 2 strangers have a fairly decent conviction rate. The conviction rate of rape of someone known to you is low mainly due to the question of proof. It is almost impossible to prove anything when the only evidence available is the word of the two parties involved. This applies to anything, not just sex.

In my distant past I took dates back to my flat and regardless of whether I had made a point of saying there would be no sex, if there was some snogging and low level petting then I would always expect the guy to make a move for sex. Good lord, I've said no and then later made the moves myself. I am allowed to change my mind and he is allowed to wonder whether maybe as my hands are all over him and my lips are sucking his I have had a change of heart. God almighty, why not, the worst that could happen would be me saying no again.

I consider the OP's men to have very poor moves in the sexual department but neither of them forced themselves on her and she was quite capable of saying no and they respected her no.

I don't actually see what the problem is - but then if I fancied my date and he fancied me and I agreed to him staying at my flat overnight, I'd expect a bit more than snogging, I would expect to touch his naked willy with my hand.

"Aren't you able to read or was that just a stupid rhetorical trick to be dismissive of what I actually said" --> erm... dittany, dear, please apply your own sentence to every single one of your own posts. You are utterly unable to admit you could be wrong or consider anyone else's opinion, and have an utter narrow mind, honey. The best that anyone can call you is "obtuse".

Not all men are like this though, and TBH after my XH I might have thought they were! He would take ANYTHING as an invitation for sex/BJ/hand job whatver, and he could be very insistent
Recently I have been in an on/off relationship with a lovely man, he has come to visit and stayed in my house, in my bed, and when I said NO sex, he totally utterly respected that, and even though I knew he wanted to and was turned on, he did NOT try it on or make me feel in any way uncomfortable!!
Being a man is not an excuse for being a wanker!!

Dittany you are confused in what you are saying - you are saying that for things to be taken beyond kissing you want it to be "agreed" upon.

You then go on to say that your agreement is sometimes done by talking directly and sometimes not but the movement of hands or heads is not acceptable non verbal communication. So how do you do it then - without talking or discussion or moving of hands. Do you nod and humm or does he point and you smile.

The humming, nodding smiling non verbal is no worse or better than the movement of heads or hands - it is purely one of personal taste.

I am not wrong regarding the question of proof. The question of proof is the same regardless of the crime. There are very few crimes in which the only evidence available is the word of each of the involved parties. In rape cases juries do generally want to be very certain before convicting but this is much more complex than branding our society sexist or anti women or as simple as saying that woman are generally blamed for male sexual misbehaviour.

The impact of a rape conviction on the man's life is a big factor in the juries mind.

And oh god, the subject is just immense and complex and I could go on about it for days but right now I must go to bed for some head moving, hand moving and lip sucking.

Night night.

I think you are straying into dangerous territory letting them in to sleep on your sofa, when you hardly know them.

I agree with Disenchanted3, men are VERY good at hearing 'yes, I'll have sex with you' if you are merely saying 'you can sleep on the sofa'

I think bloodyright was talking about the effect of a rape accusation on the life of an innocent man. Obviously there isn't a problem with a rapist being convicted, how could there be?

Sorry dittany, I didn't mean to creep you out. I am not creepy, I promise! I just didn't understand how things were supposed to work if a guy isn't allowed to even suggest doing something without actually asking.

dittany, I did say I wouldn't reply to you anymore, but I changed my mind. You're too much fun to be ignored :P.

(munches on popcorn and keeps reading...)

Firstly, we seemed to have missed the part where "he asks or hints to come back to my place"

Why are they asking? Because they want sex or hope it is on the agenda.

Then it changes to "I have missed my last train" or "can I use your toilet"

Iffy, if you ask me. These guys had an intention, sex. They hinted at it, then after that didn't get them through the door, they made an 'excuse'. Hoping, once in the door, they could change OPs mind. Then some kissing & cuddling doesn't work, so he gets his dick out. He wanted sex, what if he was prepared to just take it?

That is not to say it would be your fault if anything had happened, of course it wouldn't have been. But the fact that you freely let men in your house wouldn't have helped a possible rape case. It is a sad fact that many people still think that a woman consenting to kissing & cuddling is a woman consenting to sex. These people sit on juries. Sad but true.

Twice this has happened. (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me) OP, I think you are either terribly naive, or very forgetful. Sorry! But for this to happen twice, you need to seriously harden up & say "no, sorry, you can't come in" He could've got a hotel room or the other one could have pee'd against a tree. Did the first time not teach you anything?

It is very true that in 2010 women should be able to invite anyone we like into our homes.

women should be able to wear what the fuck we like and wear it anywhere we like

women should be able to take a cab & be OK

women should be able to walk at night, at anytime she likes, where ever she likes, on her own

women should be able to dance with/have a meal with/kiss a man & for that man not to not want more from it

But we can't! It is a very sad fact of life that we need to protect ourselves. Because there will always be men who think that letting them in your house is a come on, or that you dressed 'sexy' because you are looking for sex, or that you owe him for the meal he just brought you.

Wrong attitude on his part, but it is out there.

not to want more from it

"We still have to remember that they lied to gain access to her house"

They lied after having previously hinted they wanted sex.

'he asks or hints to come back to my place'

A woman has a responsibility to keep herself safe. Alarm bells would have rung out for me, if after hinting at coming into my house didn't work, they resorted to 'excuses'

Dittany

you should really read your own posts back - you really have been very confusing.

I have no interest in your sex life Dittany, but you did seem to be inferring that men shouldn't be allowed to make the next move without having been given permission prior to the move being made. Which is something which you may wish to insist upon, but it is something which would depress me. I want trust and sheer delight in the sexual activity to take priority, I don't want to have the whole process to be defined by the risk of rape.

Having "worked on rape cases" myself I can tell you that the question of proof when considering a rape case is, quite simply, the same as when considering an assault case or anything else. You have to go forward on the evidence available.

Unfortunately, the rape cases where both parties are known to each other, and where the only evidence available is the word of each party involved, are very difficult to prove on the simple basis that juries are reluctant to convict a man for rape on the word of one other person.

Unfortunately, whether you are upset by this has no bearing on whether or not it is true.

I would be upset at a rapist not being convicted when he was guilty just as much as I would be upset at an innocent man being convicted of rape.

If I had been raped I would expect the evidence to be enough to secure a conviction. If the evidence were not sufficient I would not expect the legal system to make an exception for me - cos I'm a good girl I am - I wouldn't tell ya a lie guvner!!

Your suggestion that I have no consideration over the effect of rape on a woman's life is utterly disgusting and I take special offence to that for quite personal reasons.

And one last note - the effect of making excuses for women getting themselves into silly dangerous situations with men they do not know well enough or trust sufficiently, is utterly pointless and self-defeating.

Oh - and I don't put the OP into this category - she was quite able to say no and the men respected her no. Most men do accept no means no, most men don't want to rape women.

Well, at least after reading this thread I wasn't quite so surprised when I read this today.

FFS

I am not naive or stupid actually.

I just got to know these guys more than enough to feel comfortable with them.

Seems most people believe men's sex drives cannot be trusted and that women should constantly be on their guard.

And basically that's WHY men get away with so often.

Really there's almost no equality in this world and I wish there was a proper ( feminist?) movement to address this issue.

and here it is again, maswera

how fucking awful that these kinds of attitides seem to be so pervasive in daily life, and especially among women

why don't we just give up now ladies...and tell blokes they can do what the fuck they like to us, whenever they like ...

< throws away dancing shoes >

maswera and AnyFucker, I was just coming on here to post the same news article.

This thread has shocked me to the core. I can't believe so many women can have such attitudes towards their fellow-women.

Don't forget your burkhas and hijabs next time you go out ladies. You never know if a man would get sexually inflamed looking at you in your mini-skirt and tights and make a sexual advance at you, because, you know, that's what they do and it's your responsibility to protect yourself from their animal instincts.

And you lot have the guts to criticise other cultures for being misogynistic.

It's fucked isn't it. If a woman says no, she means no. None of this "oh but she meant yes". No isn't mixed signals by any stretch of the imagination.

Being kind and allowing someone to stay the night does not equal sex. And if anyone fancies re-reading the OP.

"and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'"

That isn't the words of someone who thought their passion was being reciprocated! That's begging and it's damn creepy. And not on! There is no defence for it. It's appalling behaviour.

Spoken to DP about this, he knows someone who used to be a defence lawyer and has been told that in rape cases he used to hope for a mainly female jury in order to get the alleged rapist off. Thanks to attitudes like those in this thread. It's sickening.