in pain, confused and can't see a way forwards.

[YouKnowNothingoftheCrunch]

I've posted about DH more times than a care to remember. But lately things were better. He has been depressed for nearly 3 years. I supported him, got him help and he turned on me.

He spent all of last year (while I was preg with DC3) blaming me for everything and basically making my life a living hell.

I kicked him out, then we worked on things, he changed meds and things got better (slowly).

He's still ill, but much better. He's worked throughout and has put a lot of time into rebuilding his relationship with the DCs.

I think I just want a bit of sympathy really. I don't have anyone to talk to in RL at the moment.

I had a minor op this week. He took me to hospital (no one else to do it and he wasn't keen on missing work but agreed) and was completely distant and cold even though he knew I was terrified. I challenged him on it and he said nothing. On the way home from hospital I told him how upset I was. Nothing.

In the evening I begged him to talk to me, even though I was tired, in pain and still woozy from the general anaesthetic.

Still nothing.

And now he's saying that comfort is a "two way street", that "if I don't ask for help he can't be expected to give it" (bearing in mind I begged him that first evening for him just to talk to me).

I'm on my own with 2DCs, the house is a tip, I'm still too ill to sort it and everything he promised to do is undone. I even had to clean things before I could give the DCs their breakfast.

I don't want to talk to him. I don't know how to get passed this.

If I'm honest I thought that if he could look after me this week it would make up for all the crap he put me through when I was pregnant. It would prove he was different and could be there for me when I needed him.

Sorry for the very self-indulgent post. Just feeling so sad and tired of it all.

When will it end?

But you're separating the "real him" (Kind, considerate, fun, helpful) with the "Depressed Him" (Cold, uncaring, selfish, isolated) and it's ALL HIM

So the kind, considerate, fun, helpful, cold, uncaring, selfish, isolated man is your husband.

Look, as I said earlier, my Dear Father struggled with depression for years. It was terrible, it was heartbreaking, it was tiring. I know depression, I have lived with it both in my family, and have suffered from it myself. I am not unsympathetic to the dark black empty place one can find oneself in. Really, I'm not, but right now? His depression is finding vent in you, and that is untenable IME.

It's all getting tangled up - he is emotionally unavailable, and blames it on the depression. Where can you go from there without feeling like uncaring wife? He is sometimes kind and caring, but when he's not? Oh, it's the depression. Sorry but FUCK THAT.

As I said earlier - my dad was never emotionally abusive, or any other kind of abusive to any of us.

I think if someone has an entitlement issue, or an anger issue or a desire for passivity then that is exacerbated by the depression, not the other way round IYKWIM.

God, I'm getting WELL strident. Stop me if I'm burbling on too much won't you? I want to try and support you a bit, not make things worse.

Careful, Crunchy

Oh, I can't stop thinking about this! You're clearly a warm, humorous, intelligent & capable woman, who cares about her husband & kids and asks for very little from her marriage (too little, possibly). Whereas your lovely husband cares very much about his own feelings (viz. 'you're making me depressed'), cares what other people think of him (viz. hospital) but cares nothing for your feelings and asks too much of his marriage.

It's just stupid. I'm so cross!!
You're one of those "Women Who Love Too Much", aren't you? It's a failing. Can you fix it?

Not him, the loving too much.

WhoIsAsking - Yes.

erm Grace - I hope you mean that I was making some salient points rather than thinking I should STFU?!

Should probably crowbar in a joke here about crunchy arse fuckers with grace..and WHOwasasking for that again?!

WIA - you are talking far too much sense to be burbling.

And I think you are right about aspects being exacerbated by the depression. I hadn't looked at it quite like that before.

at me being a woman who loves too much.

Perhaps I'm just stubborn and hate to fail.

It's not that he doesn't care, he just cares in relation to its effect on him.

I like the analogy of this type of relationship being like a Fruit Machine that won't pay out. The more money (emotion/effort) you put into it, the less you have to spare, but at some point you've put so much in that you feel like it must pay out at some point and that will solve all your problems. So you keep putting the money in. And then you run out of money (strength) and so you borrow some from elsewhere (energy you could have spent on something better like the DCs) and keep putting it in.

And the more time goes by the more you lose, but there is still that overwhelming feeling of, "If it pays out then all of this goes away". And by then you're so tired, and you've lost so much already, what's a little bit more? And a bit more after that?

I thought I'd got the pay out. I really did. Maybe I just won enough to convince me the jackpot is still in there.

Now that (pay attention WIA!) is a proper burble

dittany, you are right. That is me. That was him.

oh gawd almighty

crunchy...you have so much insight

and he soooo does not

how can you stay with him ?

Evidence suggests I'm a moron

Don't be sad AF.

why not be sad crunchy, it certainly ain't no picnic

dittany I know. You have given me good advice in the past. I have much more insight into his motivations now than I did last year. Back then I thought I could "save him", now I know it's not down to me (although it helps to be reminded at times).

He was... on the verges of being entirely delusional last year. He was very ill. And he has been trying to take responsibility for all of it. I wasn't trusting him in a blind way, he had really worked at rebuilding it. He is currently getting CBT counselling and she is fully aware of his history of manipulating his counsellors to reinforce his behaviour, so she is careful to work on his taking responsibility first and foremost. And he has worked hard at it. He's also taken his medication regularly (and I've just checked his packets and unless he's chucking them away he has been taking them - I don't think he'd think to chuck them BTW).

I'm not blind to his failings, but I'm not blind to his achievements either. The fact that the DCs now trust him is down to hard work on his part.

But I think that this is too much for us to get through again.

AF, picnics are overrated. What with the ants and the wasps and everything.

Crunchy (I am going to adopt your new nickname now) you are no moron.

You are the same as a bunch of us here. You're caught up. It happens. Such is life. You are an emotionally aware woman, your analogy of the fruit machine is spot on...

I go to a pub round the corner from where I live. There is a woman who is there, pumping money into the same machine every time I go. At first, I watched her, and just thought "Fuck me, she's been there for an hour, that machine is a 50 pence per play" then I thought "How awful, she's completely addicted", then she sort of dropped out of my vision. She was always there plugging money in, dashing out and coming back with more cash, back up to the bar with her card getting cashback.

Then (and I swear this is the truth) just before xmas, I went into the pub, and there she was plugging money in as usual, only this time her parents were with her. She played a while, ate some dinner - all the while her head kept turning back to the machine, almost protective of it, waiting for someone else to come and have a go and win the jackpot.

She wolfed her meal, and she was back at that machine. Her Dad looked at her with...despair...honestly this is true...and her mum said "At least she's not doing drugs"

Well. I've never seen her have a win that she didn't put straight back in. Those around her compare her addiction to something even worse (At least it's not as bad as last time) all the while she pisses her life down the drain.

You deserve better.

AF's on form tonight!

Amazing revelation there from Dittany. So - was he saying "Woe is me, I make my wife unhappy but am driven by irresistible forces to be a miserable arsehole. I wish I could be nicer but I can't"?

If so, Crunchy, you definitely need to read 'Why Does He Do That?' by Lundy Bancroft It's a good read, and I think it will prove an invaluable light source for you!

Oh - you know what you said about the fruit machine? Yeah, that's classic 'Women Who Love Too Much'

Read the Bancroft first, though. That's hard science.

He posted asking how he could make it up to me. But it was all just more crap. Along the lines of "I've been so horrible for so long I want to do something big to make it up to DW, what can I do?"

It's not actually a far cry from this week's, "Oh I let you down so terribly, there's nothing I can do that is big enough to make it up to you"

It's a way of justifying doing nothing whilst making other people think that you are trying everything.

Damnit, that's pulled me up slightly, the similarity that is. Bugger.

Crunchy, I very much want to wail "Why are you putting yourself through this?" but I'd be a hypocrite. I've put myself through similar things. The first Mr Grace hit me, manipulated me & was serially unfaithful because he was insecure The second mistake was emotionally & physically absent, arrogant & dishonest because he had Asperger's (an insult to Aspies everywhere). In point of fact, both of them were exclusively in love with themselves. They just pretended to love me because I was handy - and kept making up excuses for them.

It would be very interesting to hear from any psychotherapists here, whether CBT is appropriate treatment for someone who has a "history of manipulating his counsellors". Sounds like he's already dealt with her

Sending you chippyness.. not much to add to all this great advice except how sorry I am that you're having such a difficult time. I vaguely remember your H's thread now it's been mentioned - and also highly recommend the Lundy book - found it very illuminating, uncannily so!!

We need to get Lundy to do a webchat don't we??

Grace, I have so often been on the "why aren't you leaving him?" cheer-squad. I know how frustrating it is when it's across the internet ether and their behaviour is obviously strange and abusive.

I hate myself for posting when I don't know that I want to hear the truth. But I need to sound off and I need to be reassured that this is NOT normal. And MN is the only place that is truly honest with me.

Don't feel your advice is wasted because even if I stay it has served to strengthen me and keep me going. It serves to remind me NOT to back down and to stand up to behaviour, rather than just letting it go because it's not worth the aggro.

I value it all.

I hate "The Crappy Choice" which is what I always call it: That final thing when you can't change them and you are left with "Do I stay and carry on, or do I go?"

I do garner strength from The Crappy Choice too; it means that no matter what happens I do have a choice. And that means a lot.

Thank you for all your support this evening.

Crunchy (sorry but like it), I'm probably just echoing others here but there seems to be a lot more going on with him than depression. His manifestations of anger/odd attention seeking behaviour and emotional distancing don't sound like symptoms of depression to me. I hesitate to use the word controlling as it does get used a lot on here but it does seem as if all of this is about him. Not you and not DCs. Just feels more than depression.

And, you, btw, are not a moron. You're fabulous.

chippy you made me

dittany, his Passive Aggressiveness had gone until this week. He doesn't hurt me, but he "forgets things".

I know to watch out for it and I don't put up with it.

Thanks again.

x posted with everyone!

(Thanks Belle)