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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

207 replies

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 11/01/2010 11:41

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

OP posts:
Snorbs · 19/01/2010 10:40

"minor infidelity/lack of committment from him aside"

Let's try a thought-experiment. Imagine that he is tee-total and has been all his life. And imagine that all his other behaviour is the same as you are seeing now - the infidelity, the lack of commitment, the irritability etc. Imagine he's just like that stone-cold sober. Would that be good enough? In other words, if you took away the booze but left all the rest of the relationship issues, would you be happy in that relationship?

Even if he stops drinking tomorrow - and, right now, I'd say he has no intention whatsoever of stopping for good - you have no way of knowing what kind of person he will be as a sober man. He might turn into a reliable, thoughtful, engaged and calm man. Maybe. He might instead turn into someone who spends hours at AA meetings every day to the exclusion of his other responsibilities (it can happen). He might continue to be irritable, uncommitted and adulterous. He might even become more of a pain in the bum. You just don't know.

All you do know, right now, is that he's got a drink problem and there are a number of other serious issues with your relationship. Even if, and that's an "if" the size of a mountain, he stops drinking then it does not guarantee those other issues will magically disappear.

'I was speaking to my sister last night and wondering aloud whether ASSUMING he came up with a plan like "no drinking at least until he meets the addictions counsellor at GPs and then we review things"'

You're trying to control his drinking. As AttillatheMeerkat posted last week,

You cannot control it
You cannot cure it
You did not cause it

(And, anyway, he is already planning to drink again - his "champagne for a special occasion" thing this evening.)

You've set a deadline. You want him to tell you his plans by 22nd January. You now need to step back and see what, if anything, he comes up with by that date. Stop trying to second-guess what he'll say and stop trying to solve this for him. His drink problems are his responsibility to address. Enjoy today for today.

MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 11:20

Snorbs has a fair point.

On the other hand, it is worth remembering that many treatments for alcoholism (AA is one, but it is not unique) do try to address the "other issues" too, for the very good reason that being a "dry drunk" (ie not drinking but not changing) is a very vulnerable way to live and relapse is more likely.

No way of knowing how he will be if and when he stops drinking. But change IS possible. Again, as Snorbs says, there are no guarantees though, so don't bank on it.

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 13:56

"Imagine that he is tee-total and has been all his life. And imagine that all his other behaviour is the same as you are seeing now - the infidelity, the lack of commitment, the irritability etc. Imagine he's just like that stone-cold sober. Would that be good enough? In other words, if you took away the booze but left all the rest of the relationship issues, would you be happy in that relationship?"

No. The lack of comittment (apathy) would be enough to make me end things (this much more than his minor (once a couple of years ago) infidelity tbh)

"You've set a deadline. You want him to tell you his plans by 22nd January. You now need to step back and see what, if anything, he comes up with by that date. Stop trying to second-guess what he'll say and stop trying to solve this for him. His drink problems are his responsibility to address. Enjoy today for today."

Thank you. Thank You. Thank You.

"It might take another 10 years for your husband to find it; or it might happen the minute after the door shuts behind him. If you still love him and can see a life for the two of you, do stay open minded and don't make "all or nothing" decisions now;"

that's roughly where I am - although SNORBS words are making me think deeply right now

" it's actions that count, not words. He might tell you he's stopping tomorrow. Perhaps he is. So wait till tomorrow, watch him stop, wait till the day after, see if it's a pattern or a fluke, and maybe then reassess. "

regular reassessment is key

"DON'T let him off with promises because drunks are experts at making promises - make sure he walks the walk as well as talks the talk."

absolutely

I don't think he is prepared to give up "for good" now, and as we know has his "champagne on special occasions" get out clause all ready (although is now NOT going out tonight, not sure why...but for sure unless his attitude changes radically is just matter of time)

my big question to myself is "WTF do I do now?"

but I will wait til I hear from him on 22nd before I decide that.

thanks again you guys

MIFLAW - I don't know how to contact you through your profile...

OP posts:
MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 14:17

Nor do I. Email me on

[email protected]

Incidentally, in case he is the paranoid jealous type, I must reiterate that I am a man.

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 14:22

MIFLAW - he is so apathetic there will be NO PROBLEM about you being a man. Anyway, he isn't a snooper.

may email you separately later - thanks again for your help and shared insights

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 16:11

am started to feel very scared now - he is not going to choose me and kids, he can't . this feels very real all of a sudden as Friday draws near.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 19/01/2010 16:24

NotSure, hold your nerve, lovey

The thing about ultimatums is you absolutely have to follow through

Or else he has carte blance to continue making you unhappy...but with nobs on because you have made him aware you are not prepared to be steadfast

if he doesn't choose you, that is up to him

you cannot make him come to his senses and prioritise his family...and therein lies your answer

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 16:35

I know, I know

pls can I have AF, SNORBS, MIFLAW, Graceagain and the rest of you on an earpiece hookup for all of Friday night

PLEASE!!

he won't think is suspicious when I have minor delay between every exchange to listen to what the wisdom on MN has to say, no, not at all...

SOb. Shake. Quiver. Sob.

OP posts:
PinkFluffyslippers · 19/01/2010 17:12

I know the 22nd is D Day - and we'll all be here holding your hand (sort of) but be brave and you'll feel liberated at the end of it. (BTW are you really going to miss living with an alcoholic?) Not that I'm passing any judgement!!

ItsGraceAgain · 19/01/2010 17:15

Yes, my love

I hate Moments Of Truth as much as everyone else does!

Been through a few, though, and know the grass is greener when you can see it properly ...
oops, that was a bit metaphysical wasn't it?

MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 17:31

Will do my best to be around on Friday.

What is an earpiece hookup though?

AnyFucker · 19/01/2010 19:19

will be working Friday, but probably around Friday evening

< realises that was a stupid statement, I am always bloody here >

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 20:10

thanks all

MIFLAW - an earpiece hookup thing is the, ahem, technical term, ahem, for those things they wear in spy movies when experts want to direct someone (usually from a van parked nearby - would you all fit in a ford transit I wonder?) in a conversation by listening in and saying into the earpiece how the person should respond

make sense?

PFS _ I know when you put it like that it does seem I am just being a bit dense, but the raft of emotions around this are vast

am I letting him down, is he really so bad, am I actually imagining it and blowing out of proprtion, etc etc etc

most of the time i do feel sure this is right course of action so just need to try not to have blip on friday - assuming he remembers he is supposed to be presenting his "plan" then...

off to cinema with friend tonight - thank GOD - desperately in need of distraction

his work collegue night out champagne fest isn't happening for some reason

he is mad with me at moment cos I had audacity to send him link to some recovery programme website (I can hear you already - the 3 Cs - but I thought it might be useful I do care about him still after all)

nevermind - off out now

thanks again all

OP posts:
PinkFluffyslippers · 19/01/2010 20:55

No you're not being dense - sorry if I came across as a bit harsh. You're wonderful and of course you still having feelings for H.
Hope the movie was a good distraction - what did you see?

PFS XXX

MakeYerOwnDamnDinner · 19/01/2010 22:01

I hope you manage to enjoy your night out with your friend OP - you deserve it.

I must be the most naive woman in the world - I was well shocked to hear that you're a man MIFLAW. I thought it was just women on here.
Do lots of men post on here then?

Might start a new thread...

MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 23:40

I don't think there are many men but neither am I alone.

My partner got me into mumsnet because of the bilingualism pages - our daughter speaks French and English and, as she is our first, it was useful to have the support of other parents.

Then I found the alcohol threads and, in my experience, gender is very much secondary in such cases.

I don't comment on much else tbh because it gets me riled over nothing - although I have crossed swords with the far right elements a few times (whose presence shocked me a lot more than that of men ...)

AnyFucker · 20/01/2010 07:15

makeyerown, a friendly heads-up

the presence of men has been debated muchly on here

you may well get a pasting for questioning it at all

anyway, go ahead, but brace yaself, love

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 20/01/2010 09:03

did have a good time at the cinema actually - saw "an education" which was brilliant

however between th etime I posted last night 8.10 and the time I left the house (my friend rang the doorbell about 8.20 - I left about 8.25) me and H managed to have a blazing, shouting, children distressing row about (of all things - but it has been a running issue for ages) whether he would be home in the morning to let the cleaner in or whether I needed to cancel her. I normally work from home wed mornings as I go to the psychotherapist in the afternoons but today I have to be at work for big client meeting, H was going to be home but doesn't like to be tied down when he is and resents me greatly if I presume anything - apparantly he might have wanted to go for a jog, and didn't want to have to put a time to it

so I ended up losing it and shouting at him and he ended up being all righteously aggrieved and victimised again. Aaaargh!

My poor friend had to put up with me relesaing steam like a pressure cooker for the first ten minutes I was in her car

It made it more clear to me again though that we need to break. Poor DD1 was in tears, hanging off me, not wanting me to go.

I feel like I am approaching the edge of a precipice that I can't see over. Quite quite terrified, but there might just be a tiny seed of exhilaration in there somewhere too.

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 20/01/2010 09:05

ps men on the site (and in general) far far preferable to the far right contingent imho, well, non far right leaning men that is

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/01/2010 09:15

NotSure,

Your H is being a real twunt and knows how to push your buttons; again all he cares about here is his own self - and the drink which he is now having a primary relationship with.

Did he go onto let the cleaner in this morning?

I will be around on Friday to do some virtual hand holding, I usually am online during the day.

P.S MIFLAW - good to see a man on here.

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 20/01/2010 09:28

Hi Atilla and thanks

I expect he will let cleaner in - she won't be there til 12. He told me not to cancel her last night when I got home. But apparantly I STILL don't understand how constricting it is for him to have to be in the house at a certain time. He has the most flexible job of anyone I know, can work at home loads or could go out to library but rarely does these days, he has nothing on this week apart from a meeting this afternoon which if he leaves just after 12 (when he was planning to leave anyway it emerged) he will be in time for. The reason we have a f*ing cleaner in the first place is because he never does anything around the house without being asked so many times and the state of the house was just doing my head in totally.

I know he is under pressure - things aren't going well at work and he has a grievance hearing (not against him, one he has taken) next week which is playing on his mind. But this has been more or less the case for the past two or more years. His workplace isn't pleasant. But we all have shit to deal with. My job ain't a bed of roses either. He really does play the aggrieved victim I've recognised (as result of this thread mostly so thanks again) all last summer and early autumn when I wanted to talk about the state of our relationship (just before I kicked him into spare room) all he kept going on about what how awful my timing was in relation to stuff that was going on at work.

God, I'm tired of this. Relationships don't have to be such hard work do they?

OP posts:
Snorbs · 20/01/2010 10:06

"so I ended up losing it and shouting at him and he ended up being all righteously aggrieved and victimised again. Aaaargh!"

I bet you a tenner he had a drink last night after you had gone out. A "my wife is such an unreasonable bitch I deserve to have a drink!" drink.

I remember when the light came on about that for me - when my (then) DP had been sober for a few days/weeks in an effort to show me that she didn't have a drink problem, she'd trigger an argument and use the resulting righteous anger at how crap I was to "justify" having a drink. I don't believe it was a conscious decision on her part, it's just one of the ways addictions mess up your mind and skew your perceptions.

Once I realised what was going on I found it easier to simply refuse to engage in the argument. By that point it was inevitable she was going to drink anyway, she was just looking for an excuse. But by not engaging in the pointless argument it markedly reduced the emotional toll on me.

"God, I'm tired of this. Relationships don't have to be such hard work do they?"

No, they don't. Even being a single parent is ten times easier than being in a relationship with an alcoholic.

(P.S. Just for the record, I'm a man)

MIFLAW · 20/01/2010 10:26

No pasting from me re man question, perfectly reasonable. MIFLAW is actually an abbreviation for my original name on here -"Man, I Feel Like A Woman"!

Agree with Snorbs - that behaviour, conscious or unconscious, is exactly right for drinking. "Poor me, poor me, pour me another" as they say in the Fellowship (or, as my partner calls it, After School Club.)

I'll tell you something else, too - no matter how unpleasant one's work place, it's a lot less unpleasant without a hangover.

Anniegetyourgun · 20/01/2010 10:30

He's just got a massive sense of entitlement, hasn't he? Like, life should be so easy and everyone should do things to fit round him. Taking responsibility is something other people do so that he can get on with what he wants to do - mainly, drink a lot. He's like a four year old, except that I have met some four year olds who understand that sometimes you can't have what you want without going into a tantrum.

autumnlight · 20/01/2010 11:26

I sympathise alot with your situation. I have been nearly driven mad by my dysfunctional relationship with my H. Ours has been a 'breaking-up' scenario for ten, whole years. I have been the only one who ever tried or cared, and my H would never even consider going to marriage guidance. (We did go 'one time' about nine years ago but he refused to ever go again as he had really just wanted go go there to have someone else agree with him that I was to blame for everything and that I was the bad one - and obviously the counsellor did not agree). He too is an alcoholic (high-functioning one with good job). When I have pointed out to him over the years about his drinking - his only reply is 'so what'. I gave up doing this a long time ago. I did, a few years ago, attend Al-Anon. They helped me realise I couldn't keep taking responsibility for his drinking. I have been the only one in my marriage 'worrying' about the state of things. He has never even given it a minute's thought - and he doesn't even love me and he is cruel. Sorry to be negative. I just understand how you feel and I have been losing my mind for ten years with my H and I am in counselling because of what this relationship has done to me. I have worked out that it is 'him' that pulls me down in life, and I would be better on my own. I know I have been a victim for ten years - hanging on year after year and need to find the courage to make the break. I hope you find a way to make a happier future for you and your children and whether the life you have with your H is worth persevering with and holding on to.