Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

As said by others, it really doesn't matter whether or not he accepts that he is an alcoholic - you don't need him to do that to believe it yourself. 100+ units a week, or even 70-80/w, when the health guidlines are back at 21units a week should be enough of a guide to you.

Alcoholics come in all shapes and sizes - and in fact you might benefit from AlAnon in that way, i.e. discovering that your H is not that unusual in the range of alcoholics. I had a lodger once who was a functional alcoholic but a binge one - his thing was that he could go ages without a drink but when he had one he couldn't stop. In many ways more damaging to his health as his liver would be heavily blasted once in a while rather than on a daily basis but your H is also damaging his health.

Perhaps MIFLAW can help with this one - is H really likely to stick to any plan while still in his comfort zone?

Is he an alcoholic? Who knows? But he does a bloody good impression of one, I'll give him that ...

"is H really likely to stick to any plan while still in his comfort zone?" Again, who knows? Both of AA's founders got sober with wives who stuck by them (and helped out in the early days of AA) - but, for me, I had to crash a car (no one injured, fortunately), be arrested, be left by my girlfriend, be abandoned as a friend by the same girlfriend, and THEN get caught under the influence while at work in a school before I started taking it seriously.

All I CAN say is that there is nothing you can do to make him "see the light" - if he's ready to go for it now, he will; if it's due to take him another 10 years, then 10 years you will wait. So start thinking of you and your kids, judge him on a daily basis, and most of all judge his ACTIONS, not his good intentions - he may be able to live in a golden future in his head, but you have to live in the here and now. If you don't like the here and now, do something about it - don't wait for him because it may never happen. And if you do stay, be prepared to change that plan at a moment's notice if it starts to look like it's not happening.

"thing is he has been to Gp three times now and they look at him ad listen to him and send him away just telling him to try to moderate it - at least that's what he tells me"

And, yet, he's still drinking two or three times more than the suggested "if you're drinking this much, you've got a problem" limit. That's not moderating it.

As others here have said, don't pay much attention to what he says about his drinking. Pay attention to what he does. So far, his actions have been to continue to drink heavily despite the damage it's causing to his relationships and against repeated medical advice.

I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this. Being in a relationship with someone with alcohol issues can suck the very life out of you as you are so clearly lower down their list of priorities than their booze is. It's ten times worse when you have children involved, of course.

Al-Anon can help. So can one-on-one counselling - via your GP, or maybe Women's Aid can point you in the right direction. Talking about it is a good thing. Melody Beattie wrote a very good book called "Co-dependent No More" that talks a lot about ways to reduce the bad effects that someone else's alcohol problems can have on our lives.

Have just read my post back and realised that I said something pretty silly but thankfully so far everyone has read it how I meant it, not how it could be seen - of course it matters if your H accepts he is an alcoholic in the end - he won't do anytyhing about it unless he does! What I meant was that it shouldn't be necessary for him to accept that he is an alcoholic for you to realise that he probably is.

Sorry for being unclear.

I am really really grateful to you all

he is still not drinking (i know, i know it's not much, but it MIGHT be a start) and planning to see GP on Monday

we were talking about next month's diary arrangements (I want to go away one weekend) and he said "sure I may not even be here by then" and I told him that was up to what he decided and let me know on 22nd. He retorted that I might not let him stay even if he suggested he should and I told him there would absolutely be conditions which we'd discuss in further detail nearer the time.

God, it is exhausting. He is a kind man, being very tender to the kids now as they are ill, really looking after them. But has a very short fuse and can lose it with them so easily too.

Anyway. This thread, while things on it have been hard to read, is really helping me.

Thank you all very much

am going to my psychotherapist this afternoon so will mention the co-dependency thing, i think we have maybe been skirting issues around that without giving them a name last week anyway

Good luck this afternoon - I hope you move forwards in your therapy!

I have to say, it sounds like he is already deciding that he isn't going to be accommodating to your wishes/needs here - he already assumes you will be throwing him out, that suggests to me he isn't planning to work hard to change. It's clear from what you have said that he believes (or at least is telling himself) that he hasn't got a drink problem and that he is never going to stop drinking altogether.

Back to you - can you accept that and live with it, or is it a "dealbreaker"?

I don't know - if he could moderate and manage his drinking better I wouldn't expect him to "never have a drink again" but then I am sure people on here will likely tell me that's just me being an enabler, or not facing facts or whatever and that it won't be possible for him. If he were drinking the recommended number of units a week, and he weren't a slave to booze then I would be up for trying to make it work with him I think. That would be so much of a sea change for him and I'd feel a proper comittment to us. We'd need to agree various other things too though, about attitude to the kids, discipline, routine etc but that could all come. However I am not prepared to take his word that he will cut down. I think in the first instance I'll listen to what the GP has to say and take her advice on what's possible/reasonable etc. That's if she is prepared to talk to me about his treatment plan - if they agree one on Monday.

Can you not go with him? Or will he refuse to allow that? Cos I would see it as a positive step on his part to let you accompany him and listen yourself to what the doc says, rather than taking his word for what has been said.

interesting idea TW - hadn't thought of that - was supposed to be working but may suggest I accompany him and see what he says - his reaction alone might be interesting I guess

Notsure - I lived with an alcoholic for 2 years. At one stage I thought I was going mad as things weren't "right". Nothing I could put my finger on, nothing tangible, but a "thought". One day, after doing the washing up, I put a glass away in the cupboard I keep my glasses and bottles of drink. I then came across a dirty glass. Odd, I thought, I'd never put a dirty glass away. Then my eye caught sight of an empty bottle - which I know damn well had been full. Then I looked at another bottle. Empty. And another. Empty.

Then the penny dropped. I questioned the ex about it and he used to get up at 2 or 3 in the morning and go downstairs and sit and drink. He used to drive my son to school still under the effects of alcohol. When I found out, I banned him from taking my son anywhere and I did the school runs etc. myself again. He used to pick his own daughter up from school under the influence, having been drinking at lunchtime. We had conversation after conversation about it. I was appointed bottle monitor when we had a glass of wine in the evenings.

I found out that he had to go to the docs to get an anti-nausea injection. He had to take strong vitamin B tablets to counteract the effects on his system of the alcohol. He "said" he was going to Signpost meetings for alcoholics (although I'll never know if he did).

I went along to a couple of al-anon meetings which I didn't find useful as people just used to complain about their week - they weren't supportive. But that was MY local group, not all groups will be the same.

From the length of this post, you'll gather that this went on for months, extending the deadlines, moving the goal posts etc. In the end, after yet another series of lies about several things, I told him I wanted him to go.

He got very dramatic about "his exit" (to use his words) and dragged his feet. In the end, for the sake of my son and myself, I waited until he was away for a couple of days, got the locks changed, packed all his stuff into black bin liners and dropped them at his Dad's house - and then texted him saying that he couldn't come back.

Now I've got knots in my stomach from revisiting this episode (which was about 7 years ago).... but I sincerely hope that it helps you...... and sorry everyone that this is such a long post

My God LemonyLemon - that sound absolutely HORRENDOUS. Not surprised you have knots in your stomach at revisiting it. Thanks for sharing it and I hope you are in a much better place now

one of the probs with my DH (or, could that be NON-problem - I don't know anymore) is that he never drinks like that. There are no empty spirit bottles (although he did go through most of a bottle of armagnac over christmas with his brother but that's probably not so unusual over two weeks of festive season) - what there is however is a real dependance on booze. He gets irritable if anything gets in the way of his first drink of day (normally not until about 6pm) and then he might have two or three strong G&Ts, a couple of bottles of beer, followed by a half to a bottle of wine. The hwole evenings focus is on making ameal to accompany the wine , as in his mind he is being quite normal just having some wine with his food. But this is to neglect of properly engaging with kids bedtime, any chores around house etc etc . He gets very irritated when the kids won't go to sleep as they are disturbing his quality time with wine. Now I can quite understand this, our DD1 is a pesky child and had never gon eto sleep easily. Can keep demanding attention for two hours after being put to bed etc BUT we have never tackled this is a consistent way as H finds giving in the best short term tactic in order to have undisturbed meal with wine. Of course that hasn't worked and she is getting worse and worse. I guess I could just take over bedtime every night and enforce things myself but I am totally knackered usually so we share. ALso some evenings I am out.

Anyway. He is doing very well this week. Though very irritable still presumably as result of coming off booze now. Maybe he will just always be irritable...I don't know

But thing is I need to watch the actions now, not the words. Next Monday ay well be a big turning point

NotSure,

If I am not wrong, I remember your post from the last time ("wood from Trees" ?). I copied it in a Windows file so I could read it over again as I am going through the same thing. I can't advise on the drinking, my partner also drinks. BUT, I have always seen his drinking as a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem, i.e. his incapacity to face life and face himself. If you remember in your post, a lady commented on the passive-agressive character, I did a big serach on Internet about it and found it very useful, you probably did as well. What I am trying to say here I guess is that the problem is bigger than his drinking (but I am not saying his drinking is not a problem, of course). And because he has nice sides and, basically, you are not in real danger of violence and/or abuse, then it is very hard for you to leave him basically. In your last post you described the behaviour of your partner (escaping decisions, responsibilities...) and I think you are totally exhausted and drained from holding everything together. He probably goes around questions, avoids things and makes you feel like you are the one nagging, etc. This is a vicious cricle, I really feel for you, I don't have the answer as to how to deal with those characters but I think you need to watch yourself here. There is a lot of empathy in the way you write about him, a lot of goodness in you, can you apply this same empathy to yourself?
Sorry I was long.

toomanyquestions - YES that was me - I'm so sorry to hear you are in similar situation - shit isn't it?. You have hit the nail TOTALLY on the head with your summing up of where I am at. Totally!
"I think you are totally exhausted and drained from holding everything together. He probably goes around questions, avoids things and makes you feel like you are the one nagging, etc."

YES YES YES

tells me I am "making mountains out of molehills" and I seriously wonder whether I am.

Although he seems to be realising I've reached a sort of limit now and I think is starting to face up to things - but only time, and actions, will tell...

I must go back and reread that thread if I can find it

I hope you are looking after yourself too TMQ and finding that empathy for yourself inside

"(although he did go through most of a bottle of armagnac over christmas with his brother but that's probably not so unusual over two weeks of festive season)" OF COURSE IT'S BLOODY UNUSUAL! My partner and I met online. We nearly didn't get together because she identified herself as a "heavy drinker" and I, by then, didn't drink at all. But we did meet and it turned out I wasn't a temperance crusader and that her definition of heavy drinking was a long way from mine ...

Anyway, partner and both her parents (who also "like a drink") were around for Christmas and drinking.

They came NOWHERE NEAR to those quantities and I know they never would.

Now, I realise at a push that some drinks, like cheap scotch or gin, "slip down very easily" over Xmas and that, if you're hitting the G&Ts or the scotch and soda hard, two people can easily go through a bottle over the space of a few days. I would say, though, that neat armagnac is NNOT one of those drinks. With neat spirits, you feel every single drop going odwn.

But, benefit of the doubt - let's say armagnace is exactly like G&T. So, if, toasts aside, your husband and his bro drank nothing apart from the armagnac (incidentally, would you say it was 50:50, or did one consume more than the other?) then maybe it could be called "normal."

My guess is they didn't just drink that. My betting is that, alongside that, lots of wine, champagne, maybe a few beers, even the odd G&T to be sociable, was consumed.

In which case that is normal drinking for a drunk like me, but not for a normal "heavy drinker" like my partner.

NotSure

I have been exactly where you are now, almost to the letter, about a year ago. After about 5 years of increasing drink related problems and a couple of half hearted separations, I finally reached my limit and said H had to go to AA or we would have to split. He had tried AA before and didn't like it so I found him some phone counselling via a website called Dry Out Now. It was like a personality transplant - he was pleasant to be around, not distracted all the time, more patient with the kids, self analytical, healthier, you name it. But after the 3 months of counselling finished he gradually started drinking again, first just a couple of beers for his birthday, then for the weekend, then for a bad day...

Our life slipped slowly back onto the path of his alcholism, with all the trappings. In November last year H came back from work drunk (having driven home) with a bottle of wine that I think he'd opened in the car. I went to bed in temper and when I woke up, he had come to bed but was throwing up in our wastepaper basket! That was the final straw, it seemed to epitomise everything seedy and hopeless about our situation - him living like a student and shrugging off any responsibility for me our our 3 DC's.

He moved out last week and we are divorcing. It has been a horrible mash up of emotions, I am so sad that it has come to this and he just can't get his shit together to try and fight for his family and home. He is telling himself and anyone who'll listen that the 'relationship had run it's course'. He's so spectacularly in denial it's amazing. But mostly I feel relieved that the uncertainty has gone and proud that I've done the right thing. DCs were of course upset but the visiting arrangement seems to be working (I realise it's very new yet) and the house is definitely calmer.

I hope you can salvage your man and your relationship, but don't let the little things slip by. You say he's not drinking - are you sure? H used to keep booze in the garage, shed etc or drink it on the way home disposing of containers on the way. I started keeping a diary to remember all the non-major drink related events and feelings and reading that back is so sad. I was always waiting for a monumental moment that would bring him to his senses, but it never happened. He just slipped away from being my charming, loving boyfriend to some bloke on the sofa with can in his hand day in day out.

"I don't know - if he could moderate and manage his drinking better I wouldn't expect him to "never have a drink again" but then I am sure people on here will likely tell me that's just me being an enabler, or not facing facts or whatever and that it won't be possible for him".

Yes and I would say all of those to you. This man is in the grips of alcoholism; he is incapable of managing his drinking at all, he cannot do social drinking or moderate in anyway. And neither can you. You cannot drink with him either.

"If he were drinking the recommended number of units a week, and he weren't a slave to booze then I would be up for trying to make it work with him I think. That would be so much of a sea change for him and I'd feel a proper comittment to us".

He cannot do this and alcoholism generally affects the whole family unit. You're as much caught up in the merry go around of alcoholism as he is. Your codependency is frightening to behold honestly. His primary relationship is primarily with drink.

"However I am not prepared to take his word that he will cut down".

Hoorah, focus on that to start with.

You need to remember the 3cs as well:-
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it
You DID NOT CAUSE IT

"I think in the first instance I'll listen to what the GP has to say and take her advice on what's possible/reasonable etc. That's if she is prepared to talk to me about his treatment plan - if they agree one on Monday".

You keep slipping back here. GP rehab support is patchy, you think this is going to work?. Other people too making him go to rehab is unlikely to work, he has to want to go there of his own volition. If he goes there as well he has to have no contact with you either whilst in there.

I shared a house with an alcoholic flatmate. He would never have admitted to being an alcoholic, but he was. He was also very good at making out he wasn't drinking, but he was. He was sociable and respectable and did not fit any stereotype of an alcoholic that I knew of.

I realised he had one or two bottles of wine at or just after work, before he came home. He visited the off-licence for more wine on the way home every day, and took it straight up to his room. He'd bring one bottle downstairs and offer to share it with me, over dinner. There'd be more wine and spirits after he'd gone to bed, or I had.

I used to lie in bed and hear our bin men swearing when they lifted bin bags full of bottles out of our bins every week. I was too ashamed to take them all to recycling-the crashing of bottles went on so long people used to stare.

I pieced a lot this together after he'd moved out. He was an intelligent, charming man. But he could not manage to live alone, hold down a relationship (with anyone-lover, sibling, parent or close friend), keep himself presentable or even cope with the responsibility of being trusted to lock the back door at night.

He was not a horrible man (which so many of us think when we hear the word alcoholic) not violent or nasty. But even being his flatmate was exhausting. There was no prospect at all of him taking any responsibility for anything in life, or of ever being reliable. In the end I told him to leave (8 months notice!) but he wouldn't. I had to tell him my then boyfriend was coming to kick him out bodily before he would go. He could not even take the responsibility of finding himself a new home. He moved on to a friend's house. She lasted a week before telling him to leave.

He then had to sort himself out. So he left work, moved to his home county and is now much better.

I tell you this to pay forward the favour someone did me. A friend with an alcoholic father sat me down and told me how it worked. He said I should ask my flatmate to leave before it all dragged me down any further. Didn't mean I could not be friendly or supportive, but for my own sake I had to stop carrying my flatmate.

So there you are. Better, probably if your DH leaves at least for a while and you get to recoup and look after yourself and your kids. You don't have to abandon your DH. Just look after yourself first.

thanks all for your replies

MIFLAW - yes, of course there was much much more than just 3/4 of a bottle of armagnac. Much wine, much champagne, much beer. Your question about whether it was a 50:50 split between him and his brother made me laugh. His brother drinks at least as much as him so they think it is all fine and dandy. They also have a sister who probably drinks more than both of them together - family getogethers revolve pretty much only around booze, to the extent that I have put my foot down the last couple of years and refused to go on extended family holidays with them. They think nothing of starting on the booze before noon and continuing til the wee small hours, every day for a fortnight. There is never any agro understand, just lots of jollity and japes, but it is exhausting if you are not prepared to join in, as I no longer am. And it horrifies me the message this sort of behaviour is sending to the kids. In their family you are seen pretty much as a kill joy if you even mention not drinking or drinking less.

Over xmas and boxing day I am ashamed to say I joined the brothers in the drink fest, to teh extent that I went into a black pit of despair on day after BD and realised things really had to change. I was at my lowest ebb in years. There were a couple of other things that had contributed too but I realised I can't live around people who think nothing of drinking like this. I can resist for so long but then have two days like that and feel suicidal. Not good.

leftorright - I am so sorry to hear your story. It sounds horrible though I admire your strength and determination to get through it. How long were you together? I hope you and the DCs are coping well, you sound good. One of my problems is that there has never been the change you describe from gorgeous boyfriend to alcohol dependant. He has pretty much always drank like this. I just didn't see it as a problem before we had the kids, indeed me and most of the friends in my circle would have drunk on levels not too disimilar in our 20s. The difference is we all changed over the course of our 30s and now in early 40s are much more restrained (personal blips excluded). So it's not even like he's changed. I have.

Atilla - I hear what you are saying but I guess I must be so deep in denial that I can't quite accept he can't just sort it out the way he is doing now and all will be fine. Am quite willing to accept I am mired in denial. All I can see is that he is trying and that something may just click when he visits GP and a new beginning may emerge. Though am also prepared that it might well not. I hope the scales are not so firmly on my eyes that I won't now the difference. I know the three Cs. I Know I can't control it, didn't cause it and can't cure it. Only he can. But if he is going to take it seriously and try to do something about it I am going to support him. If it emerges that he can't be arsed he will be moving out. And I will be looking at actions and not words as I said before. I don't think I am in as much denial as you seem to think I am, but of course I've no previous experience of this and so don't really know. Did you live with an alcoholic? is that how you recognise so much of what's going on?

EldritchCleaver (great name) - thanks for that message. Dh doesn't hide drink - to him that would totally signify a big problem. He doesn't drink before 6pm, he doesn't drink up in his room. He does drink quite a lot on his own as I generally don't drink much now (embarassing festive blips excluded). Like your flatmate my H is an intelligent, charming man, never violent or nasty, never abusive...people are generally very fond of him. However they don't have to live with him and his constant state of agitation (wonder if that's a symptom of alcoholism - he would say it's a symptom of his stressful job and my nagging!)

anyway - all your responses have provoked much thought and I am very grateful.

His GP appt has been moved forward to tomorrow afternoon so we'll see how that goes...

Hi again Notsure - I hate to say it, but again you are echoing my words! When me and H got together we were the ultimate party animals. I had no worries whatsoever with wild, protracted drinking and all the fun and shenanigans that went with it. But as you say, kids come along and your priorities change. H has never, ever come across as a problem drinker, in fact if asked most people would say it was me who couldn't rein it in. But in my mid 30's with my lovely little kids it didn't seem fun any more. We were together 15 years, married for 12. Again, everyone thinks that booze is part of who H is - he was always a steady drinker, I was the noisy messy drunk one.But he is still drinking steadily, all through the day and it is boring, draining and seriously unattractive.

If you can negotiate a realistic separation, then go for it, but for me it was just letting him off all the family responsibility and keeping all the good bits. His 'busy-ness' excuses continue and he won't be tied down too much, but at least I know where I am and am not getting caught up in the lies and rationalisation... It breaks my heart to have done this, but there is no way it could have continued without me being sectioned!!

leftorright - that does sound familiar. We've been together just one year longer than you too. I suppose maybe this could be construed as just "gowing apart" ie we are growing up and that aren't!

you sound in a good place right now, I hope you stay there and have enough support around you to get you through what must be very tough times. Are you managing to do he split up amicably? how are the DCs taking it?

H's GP appt has been moved forward to this afternoon - I said to him last night that we'd discuss the outcome tonight if we could and he was immediately trying to manage my expectations - "it's only a 15 minute chat with the gp" "maybe start of longer conversation" etc etc etc...ho hum...[not holding breath emoticon]

Good luck this afternoon. I think it is a very positive sign that you are going together. Do you know what you want from the appointment?

oh we are not going together - he poo poo'd that idea right off - said it was akin to my going to a counsellor - he needed privacy to open this conversation... I respected this - rightly or wrongly

Well I suspect right or wrong does not come into it - I expect you did not have the choice!

Actions - that will be what counts.

true, on both counts NNNL

can you afford rehab? there are some public funded places but i think there's a wait.

by the sounds of this he's not hit rock bottom yet and isn't admitting the problem he has with alcohol.

i'm afraid that until he does that he's unlikely to change.

you won't like this but by buoying him up- ie giving him a place to stay and tolerating his active alcoholism, YOU are actually stopping him from reaching that stage.

research ENABLING. you need to do as much work as him if you want to find your way out of this... al-anon is helpful for that but there are many online and literary resources.

the addiction thread is also helpful for support.

there is a very good chance he suffers from depression and is self medicating. that's a subject the GP can help him with.

i am the child and now wife of an (dry) alcoholic.