Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

Hi Notsure,

Re your comment:-
"We have some friends I will send him to if he hasn't pulled his finger out and sorted out a flat for himself".

Again you enable him if you do this. Do not do this for him. Why have you allowed yourself to be so damn responsible for him?. You are NOT responsible for him.

I reckon too your children are developing the same sort of over responsibility themselves (children of an alcoholic parent can become super responsible). They are certainly learning from both of you. Let him find his own accommodation without ANY imput from you. Stick to that deadline of the 22nd as well.

When the scales do fall from your eyes you will see the full extent of his damage.
You are the wife of a (currently)functioning alcoholic. His alcoholism could very well cost him his job ultimately.

You're caught up in the disease that is alcoholism as much as he is - you need support too. Al-anon could assist if you open yourself up further to the possibility.

AF is right actually - 24 hours of decent behaviour does not cut any ice with me either. Its long term actions that count, not words nor being good for 24 hours. His behaviour sends further confusing messages to the children as does yours.

What good does it do them seeing a relationship that is on its knees like this one?. What are you both teaching them about relationships here?. This is NO legacy to leave them y'know; they deserve better and so do you.

I think you are understandably frightened of going to Al-anon, your perceived shame and embarrassment of you having to do such a thing is enough to put you off going (you look at your friends and think well they don't have to go). Just look around you properly this time, your house is no sanctuary for your children nor you. He will start drinking again. Also I think you are afraid of being judged by them; they won't judge you though.

Quite apart from anything else why should your friends actually have to put up with him as well if he lands on their doorstep?. How long would he be expected to stay with them?. They will only end up enabling him as well.

Notsure, more great advice here. MIFLAW is fantastic, baring his soul for all to see so that others can benefit from his experience.

It sounds as though you have started to unsettle/rattle/challenge your H - he has "improved" a bit already - but if you relax your stance one little bit, things will go back the way they were before in the wink of an eye.

I will tell you something - my BIL is not an alcoholic but he has behavioural issues when he has drunk alcohol. He started a fight with DH at MIL's house a few months ago, while I and DS (then

yes, MIFLAW is great, baring all of this in order to help is a brilliant thing. You do sound much like my H MIFLAW and it is good to hear from someone who knows what it must be like from his side. He is so adamant he doesn't have problems, although sometimes he will admit a bit. It's been exhausting. He told me last night that he had spoken to a friend of his about my sense that he has alcohol issues and his bloody friend (also not a helathy drinker, but prob more a binge drinker) basically said to him "But that's part of who you are" referring to the camaraderie and repartee they exchange when out drinking (two real intellectuals) - H said this as if it mattered. Jesus! He is like a twenty year old student at time. Indeed that's when he knows this "mate" from and I think that's where H would ideally still be if he could. No responsibilities. Plenty of booze and intellectual repartee.

Atila what you said about the kids really worries me - my psychotherapist is also worried about the effect on them (more of our dysfunctional relationship than of H's drinking - he (psychotherapist) actually said to me at one point that H is putting effort into the relationship simply by staying in a house where the atmosphere doesn't sound so pleasant ) anyway - before when we used to have rows DD1 would always say "why don't you two separate" now, since we are separated she has recently (during a raised voices row) stood on a chair and shouted "I thought you two were a couple" . Poor mite is only 7. Is that the sort of thing you were talking about?

Crunch - that must have been hard, especially with a baby so little. Sounds like your kids are dealing with it very well. I am so worried about mine. Therapist has suggested family counselling but I don't know about that until we actually know wtf WE are doing. GP concurred. Also as you can imagine H doesn't feel very keen on that.

notsure,

That is exactly what I am talking about with regards to the children. They are only too aware and no doubt frightened and confused by what they are seeing. Your daughter having to stand on a chair to put her own point of view across, this is appalling for her to be witnessing. She is perceptive as well isn't she?. More so, I would argue, than either of her parents.

If you were to look closely at his circle of friends outside work I bet you would find that they are all, well the vast majority of them are actually his drinking buddies.

I don't actually think that family therapy is at all an option, well currently at least. Your H is mired in denial and you're going around in circles. Your H would not likely go to family therapy anyway.

I put because if you do not make any sort of decisions affecting your long term futures your children will be really screwed up emotionally by their parents dysfunctional relationship. This is NOT healthy for them to be witnessing and you are trapped in a cycle of co-dependency.

Notsure, my before he moved out the DC looked as though they were coping, when actually they weren't. DS1 started developing nervy mannerisms for a bit - always at their worst when DH was on edge

Keeping communication open with them as much as is possible has helped. But I don't think we realise how stressful it is for little ones until the time has passed.

Family therapy would never have worked when DH was in denial.

His "My mate says I'm fine" response to having a problem is utterly childish.

He's not willing to face up to this. Not yet. Which leaves you with that same old Crappy Choice I'm afraid.

I keep thinking it isn't affecting them too much, they're coping, they'd prefer us to be together etc etc etc - he tells me they aren't being affected and any feelings I have that they are are unfounded - friends of mine and family who know us both haven't been shouting that we need to separate in order to spare the kids and indeed many have spoken as though it is the separation that will risk damaging them...BUT I guess the problem is none of us really has any experience of ANY of this...

my DD1 is a very sensitive child and I am really worried about fucking her up

now I want to curl up in ball and cry...but I must be strong and get this sorted

ok, Atila - in my position what would you do now? and anyone else who has real live experience of this sort of thing?

The staying together bit will ONLY work if he isn't drinking and is actively working on try to make things better - is that enough?

do you think it is bad enough that if he doesn't say he is going off booze forever (and stick to it) I should ask him to leave now?

I don't think he can ever see himself totally off booze, talks about drinking on special occasions (birthdays/parties the like) but managing it better. He can stop drinking when he starts. He just loves that feeling of inebriation etc - although he is generally the sensible one of us both if we are both having a drink - he'll always be the one at a party to keep eye on the kids etc...lets himself go more if kids aren't around

Notsure,

You may think that the children are coping and in their own way they are managing. They have no choice really but to go along with you as their Mum. You have a choice ultimately regarding him, they do not. None of your friends either I daresay have lived with a husband who is alcoholic.

How can their Dad, your H turn around and say that they aren't being affected - has he forgotten your DD standing on a chair then?.

Re your comment also:-

"The staying together bit will ONLY work if he isn't drinking and is actively working on try to make things better - is that enough?"

I think you already know the answer to that; he still wants to drink on "special occasions" and still wants to drink anyway. He is showing no real inclination to want to change of his own volition. He loves drink and feelings of inebration more than he loves you and the children, his primary relationship is with drink.

You set a deadline - the 22nd. Stick to it. Do not enable this dysfunction any more.

He may never also stop drinking completely even after losing everything. There are no guarantees here.

Staying in this situation the way it is is guaranteed to hurt all involved. The only ones unable to leave the situation themselves are your DCs. They cannot walk away from the hurt.

You are already separated. It sounds like it's time to admit what you already know: This isn't working, is it?

Staying together for the sake of the DCs will only hurt all of you in the long term.

Crunch - you are right - but y'see it would be just "for the DCs" - I do care about the man too, and we have a shared history together, we've had our share of ups too, we do care about each other and our children very much...just maybe not enough on his part.

I'm very grateful for the no-holds barred views on this thread btw - this is what I need to hear to give me the strength to end this.

you are right atila, none of my friends has lived with an alcoholic. There have been some on my side of the family and they were just accepted and their families just got on with stuff around them

also I guess is still sticking with me that he says he isn't an alcolholic and pooh poohs me so much when I suggest it, and he still functions on many levels, but I know his relationship with booze is not normal I KNOW this, now I need to ACT on it

he is staying off the booze now though, it's been over a week now...does that matter - I think I already know the answer

atila - so I have set the deadline of the 22nd and won't let it slide - other than him giving e address of where he is moving to - if he is keen to try to make it work what should I be looking for? or d'you think he needs to move out one way or the other? is that what you mean by sticking to teh deadline? MIFLAW would be very interested in your views on this too.

Notsure, from here it sounds like you need a break from it all (and so do your DCs), if DH comes to you in 3 months and says, "I've been sober since you left, I'm an alcoholic and I want to rebuild our relationship", then that would be great. But I think that's what he needs to do to fix things. You can't control that.

Notsure, I understood what you meant when you posted about Al-anon & not wanting to define yourself "by the problem".

Now I've read all the posts in this thread, I'm afraid you also want to avoid defining yourself as part of the problem. Your replies are the arguments of a co-dependent. This is as dangerous an addiction as any others. Think about what your kids will be learning from your example - do you want them to end up as stressed-out enablers to addict partners?

As you're in counselling, maybe you could start by talking about co-dependency in your next session. I do think it's time you addressed this; Al-anon isn't such a bad place you know!

PS: I also meant to say, well done for setting your 22nd January deadline Please do stick to it - it's a healthy step for both of you.

am so sorry, OP, you must feel like utter crap

keep posting (whatever happens)

have you read, or posted on, the addictions thread ?

there is much support there from people who have been through the same thing

I DO feel like crap - but then this is hard very unromantic stuff here - I'm enabling the potential damaging of my children because I am puttng up with this - of course I SHOULD feel like shit

he loves them, they love him...arrrgh!

I will think about al-anon again, it is nothing about being embarrassed or uncomfortable tbh - just about knowing where to apply my non-limitless energies

there is only so much I can do and am already spending time every week in therapy, trying to be there for kids, holding down fulltime job etc etc etc - I don't want this to be the only thing in my life. Also I guess I feel a bit distanced from "real" whiskey bottle hiding alcoholics ie not PhD holding intellectual "fully functioning" G&T quaffing middle class ones - Pah!

I am the adult child of an alcoholic. I am 45, I am just beginning to understand how it has screwed up me, my relationships....and guess what.... my children are getting screwed up as a result. Please don't let your daughter feel the same when she is my age. Make it stop there, I cannot begin to convey the pain this is causing me and mine now - decades later.

Youknownothing is right. He needs to prove over time, a decent length of time, that he is not drinking at all; and then you can see what you have left as a family.

are you all absolutely convinced that he is an alcoholic then? (sorry if this sounds really obtuse but he has been denying it so vehemently for so long and no-one else seems to raise eyebrows at it - apart from my dear sister who knows what he is like) I guess i just don't WANT To admit it really ... [angry at myself emoticon]

newnamenewlife - thanks for posting - I am so sorry to hear what impact an alcoholic parent has had and continues to have on your existence. I wish you all the strength you need

and i suppose deep down I think he WILL choose those G&ts and glasses of beer and wine over us and that makes me sad, frightened and angry, all in one

notsure,

You must indeed feel like utter crap but at the end of the day when it gets dark you have a choice re him. Your children do not.

If your H really wanted to work on his alcoholism problem properly then he would go to rehab of his own volition (not because you tell him to go there) and not make contact with you whilst there, receive counselling whilst in rehab and live separately from you. He would attend AA meetings regularly again of his own volition. He has to want to address exactly why he wants to drink to excess the way he does; there are always reasons as to why (perhaps to make himself feel better).

He shows no indication of doing this or even wanting to address his alcoholism. He also has a drinking buddy saying its okay.

In the meantime you remain trapped in the cycle of co-dependency. This is doing neither you or your children any favours at all.

He will end up further dragging you all down with him.

You set a self imposed deadline of the 22nd - do stick to it.

My dad was an abusive drunk who my mother should have left but didn't. I went on to marry a full blown, whisky bottle hiding alcoholic. Left him when he went on a complete bender and fell against me (after pissing on DS1's nursery floor). DS1 was 18 months at the time and if he had fallen against him he would have seriously injured him. I ran for the hills with DS1 and never went back. The ramifications of my dad's drink problem have filtered down my entire family, all of us co-dependents (my 2nd DH has a gambling problem which is being addressed and he is making big changes to himself after hitting complete rock bottom (his father had gambling problems and he also had a very dysfunctional childhood)).

You cannot change your DH, he has to do that himself and FWIW my 1st H only sobered up when I left him, when he had nobody to pick up the pieces and he had to look after himself.

You have a duty to yourself and your DC, do not let them be screwed up and make the same mistakes as you. I am proud that I had the guts to leave my 1st H and didn't put my DS1 through what my mother put me and my siblings through. And it was my DS1 that gave me the strength to leave.

Good luck.

OP, a bunch of strangers cannot decide if your DH is an alcoholic...you need to speak to professionals...they will help you make a clear decision (athough I understand why you are asking us)

however, all the signs are there

if he chooses the drink over you and the dc, better he does it now than put you through more years of this horrible limbo

I really feel nothing less than a clear ultimatum is going to work..like you said...how many circles have you been round already ?

you are trying to protect him from having to face up to the consequences of his poor choices

you are allowed to feel sorry for him, but colluding with it is something else entirely

tough love!

i know, i know

thing is he has been to Gp three times now and they look at him ad listen to him and send him away just telling him to try to moderate it - at least that's what he tells me

It does not matter if he is an 'alcoholic' or 'has issues with alcohol' or is simply 'unreliable'. Don't get hung up on a label just act on known elements such as your children being unhappy. If he truly wants to be with them and make them happy he will change (or at least try to start making changes - hence needing to give some time) his behaviour regardless of the label.

Labels can help people understand what they are dealing with; they can also scare people off.

newnamenwlife - I know the label scares him off for sure but for me its a way of validating my position in a way. Sort of like a sanity checker that it is not just me overreacting to "normal" stuff or making a "mountain out of a molehill" as he accuses me of doing.

I think it is a good first step for him to go to GP next week, and after that we will have to see what he decides to do

on 22nd I will listen to his side of story and the outcome of his visit and whether he thinks he should move out or not. Unless I am very convinced by the plan of action having been drawn up by him and GP, and his intention to stick to it I will need to stick to my guns and tell him to leave. If I do decide to let him stay ad put his plan into action (assuming that's the route he chooses) I will need to set another review date I guess at which time we look at it again. And I guess have a one strike you are out policy. Gawd! Hope i can muster the strength to stick to it.

If nothing else (and I have learned lots else on hee actually) this thread has opened my eyes to the potential long term damage to my kids and I think convinced me that they will suffer more if we stay in this limbo than if I force a proper separation

yes, new, I hadn't thought about that

the label is meaningless really...look at the behaviour and the willingness to work for the greater good of your family

however, I suppose putting certain behaviours into a certain category allows us to deal with them and get the relevant help, I suppose