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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

207 replies

NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 11/01/2010 11:41

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 18/01/2010 14:38

yes, he might be an alcoholic but that doesn't mean he does every single thing any alcoholic ever did. he is still an individual. nor does it mean he is BAD.

I wasn't exposed to serious drinking as a kid. My parents drank quite frugally. I did have two uncles who were big BIG drinkers. But it was always very obvious from my parents that this was To Be Frowned On. H's family are all big drinkers and I have spent a lot of time with them over past 16 years, the first 8 or so of which I drank as much as any of them, so maybe you are onto something there, maybe being party to all that inured me to the extent of the problem.

Oh god I am getting exhausted from this. Hope it will be over soon.

And know the only way that will be is for him to move out and me to get on with building life for me and kids. This does make me very sad though. Lost dreams and all that I suppose.

I think part of the reason I don't want to go to al anon is that I feel I am already spending far too much of my time focussing on his behaviour, his relationship with booze etc etc and part of me just wants to forget about it and stop feeling defined by it

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 18/01/2010 14:43

"You're talking about him as a good man yet he's been unfaithful to you and says he wants to sleep with other people. That would be enough to start a thread about quite apart from his alcoholism."

yes I know. But i've dealt with that in my way and am forcing him to too. That's part of the raeson we've been separated for past 5 months - I've been asking him to face up to these things and give me tangible proff that he's moved on or not. He has been honest with me, he hasn't lied and said "oh no darling you're the only one for me" with his fingers crossed behind his back like so many philandering fuckers men do. He is finding the questions I am asking of him very difficult to deal with. I know in an ideal totally B&W world I'd just say "on yer bike mate" but I'm just not that sort of person. Am sure I'd be better off if I were.

OP posts:
Snorbs · 18/01/2010 14:48

"any other man I know, if told by his wife that she thought they had problems enough to cause a separation and that possibly at the root of those problems was his drinking, would just stop, and try to address the issues, if he wanted to keep the marriage going."

You are absolutely right because, for all those other men you know (and for the majority of people in general), alcohol is optional. I like a drink, but then I also like custard, and I'd drop either/both of them in a heartbeat if it meant I could potentially save my marriage as neither are particularly important to me.

But your DH... sadly, the evidence so far suggests that he doesn't see it like that. He sees alcohol as a vital and integral part of his life.

The resentment he's feeling is telling. He's seeing you as the Booze Police. He's not wanting to stop because he's realised he's got a problem, he's stopping (temporarily, and with get-out clauses) because you're twisting his arm.

Keep strong, and stick to your plans. Expect more manipulation from him, more "poor me" stuff, and more attempts by him to pin all the blame on you. Also expect more "special occasions" and drinking in secret. Try not to be the Booze Police - he has made it clear he will drink again. What more do you need to know?

dittany · 18/01/2010 14:52

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Snorbs · 18/01/2010 15:00

"I think part of the reason I don't want to go to al anon is that I feel I am already spending far too much of my time focussing on his behaviour, his relationship with booze etc etc and part of me just wants to forget about it and stop feeling defined by it"

That's fair enough. Except that Al-Anon is a lot less about the alcoholic's behaviour than it is about our responses to it. And neither is it about the alcoholic's relationship with alcohol; it's about our relationships with alcoholics.

I know Al-Anon helps some people hugely, quite a few people a bit (as it did with me), and some people not at all. I think I got more from one-on-one counselling than I did from Al-Anon as an organisation, although it did help me to find and talk to other people who have been through what I had. Even if it's only to realise that "I want to have a glass of champagne on a special occasion" is such a cliche and that everybody there has probably heard it at some point or other

MIFLAW · 18/01/2010 16:07

"Alcoholics all follow a similar pattern unfortunately." No they don't. This is what enables us to practise denial. I was never a park bench drinker and never a spirits drinker. For ages this was evidence enough that I did not have a "real" drink problem. I now attend exactly the same AA meetings as specimens of both types and find we have more than enough in common ...

dittany · 18/01/2010 16:19

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MIFLAW · 18/01/2010 16:38

Dittany

While, in very general terms, what you are saying is true as far as it goes, alcoholism is an illness, not a behaviour. As such, what alcoholics "do" is misleading and unreliable.

For example, I was not in the habit of lying about the amount I drank except for purely pragmatic reasons (e.g. "me, drink at lunchtime, boss? Never. Well, just one pint ...") I certainly deceived myself about quantities, but that was subconscious. Nor was I drunk most of the day - but woe betide you if you got between me and the pub door at 5.01pm.

The identifiers of alcoholism are not, in general, things we do, but the attitudes around them - what moght be a clear indicator of alcoholism in one person may be nothing of the sort in his own brother, and vice versa. AA sums it up very well - "if your drinking costs you more than money, think!" Not, how much do you drink; not, how much cash does it cost you; but, can you live with the consequences of your drinking and, if not, what's stopping you from stopping?

dittany · 18/01/2010 16:46

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MakeYerOwnDamnDinner · 18/01/2010 17:23

Can I wade in here? Speaking as a fellow piss artist MIFLAW, (also in recovery) I feel very uncomfortable when people try to say to me there there, all those embarrassing things you did when you were drunk weren't really your fault - it wasn't really you, it was the booze.

I know that I am responsible for my behaviour drunk or sober - it wasn't anyone else who did those things, it was me. Christ, the guilt and shame are enough to drive a woman to drink!

HOWEVER, I know that sober I am a loving responsible person who is a good mother/friend/daughter e.c.t. I am not a bad person full stop because I am an alcoholic who sometimes did bad things under the influence of alcohol. The world is not black and white.

Do I have an illness? I honestly don't know. FWIW op, I rarely drank every day, I could go for weeks without drinking at all, but when I did drink, it had such negative consequences for me and the people around me that I have had to accept that I can never drink again. No 'special occasions', nothing. Just no booze ever. That's the conclusion your husband also needs to come too. Like MIFLAW said, once you have crossed the line there is no going back.

He is already creating reasons to allow himself to drink again. He is planning and anticipating them. He still has a long way to go - sorry. You really must prioritise yourself and your kids. You're not responsible for him.

Sending you loads of moral support.

dittany · 18/01/2010 17:31

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MakeYerOwnDamnDinner · 18/01/2010 17:52

Yes absolutely I would agree with that.

It's the behaviour that alcohol induces in the alcoholic that's the problem.

The behaviour does not become acceptable just because they're 'a good person really'.

Alcoholics have to take responsibility for ALL their behaviour. In the end the only option is to STOP.

It doesn't sound like your husband wants to op. That is impacting negatively on you and your kids. And none of that is o.k. just because he's a good man really, which I accept he may well be.

He's not being good to you at the moment. He's prioritising himself and his addiction.
You can't help him. You can only help yourself and the children who depend on you.

MIFLAW · 18/01/2010 18:46

"Sorry I disagree. I don't really agree with the illness model of alcoholism."

Take it up with the World Health organisation and the British Medical Association, who both define it as such.

When I say I lied about it for purely pragmatic reasons, I mean I did not, as you seem to be hinting, lie out of a sense of shame about the quantities. I did not hide my drinking in the way that many alcoholics do. Does that mean I'm not an alcoholic, do you think, or does it mean that we cannot genralise about alcoholic behaviour?

I have no desire to take the focus off the behaviour. The point i was trying to make was that it is misleading to define alcoholics by behaviour as you did, ie "this is what all alcoholics do," because it's bollocks. Lots of alcoholics i know have done things that I do not believe I have ever done (murder springs to mind) and I have done things that probably many of them have not (deliberately piss myself on a train to avoid waiting for the toilet springs to mind.) If we all defined ourselves in terms of whether we had ticked box x or y, we would all have been dead a long time ago.

I absolutely take responsibility for what I did in active alcoholism and have taken steps to rectify it or make reparation where possible (I wonder how many non-alcoholics have done that, incidentally?) At the same time, most people accept that alcoholism is an addiction. Like all addicts, my addiction led me to do out of character things, and also to act out on things that were very much in character but which the sober me kept a lid on. It was me that did them, true enough - but not any "me" I recognise now.

Similarly, I take full responsibility for drawing on my mum's walls when I was three, but would think it unfair of you if you held it against me now, especially if I had offered to repaper the room.

"With alcoholics it's the behaviour that the problem at the end of the day." You could say that about most people, really - "it's not you I dislike so much as the things you sometimes do/say/write/don't do." An alcoholic being an alcoholic, as long as he or she remains addicted, the behaviour is not going to change. So you either desert them entirely (tougher than it sounds when they are your family, as the OP is finding) or you offer them solutions to the illness (again, take it up with the BMA.)

I find it quite irratating, tbh, to be told by a non-alcoholic what it is that alcoholics "do" and "don't do" and "feel" and "don't feel" - I think, after plenty of experience drinking, and then 8 years of self-conscious recovery (the last 7 of them continuously sober, one day at a time) I have a fairly good awareness of what I do, did, feel and felt and I also know where I am typical and where I am unusual.

Incidentally, I would love to know what, exactly, I am in denial about - I think you will find that, even by the standards of an anonymous chat room, I am more frank and open than most on here about the exact nature of my drinking and what I did as a result. You are welcome to look for me on other threads on similar topics and prove this for yourself.

AnyFucker · 18/01/2010 19:02

is this helping the Op at all ?

MIFLAW · 18/01/2010 20:15

Very fair point.

Time for me to bow out.

OP, if you think I can help in any way then contact me via my profile or post it on here and I'll get back to you off this thread.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.

S

PinkFluffyslippers · 18/01/2010 20:38

WOW - that's a crock of shit you're dealing with. Soooooo sorry.

  1. A person never changes unless they want to - and it doesn't sound like he wants to.
  2. Don't go down the path of the married man - that doesn't help. (Here speaks the voiice of someone who was involved with one for 10 years and has the daughter to prove it!!)
  3. Make the decisions for yourself and your children. You can't make any decisions for him. He's in denial and is looking to you to bail him out - emotionally.
  4. Stay strong we're all here to help in whatever way possible.
AnyFucker · 18/01/2010 20:42

MIFLAW, noooo

I didn't mean to chase you off < shit ! >

I think your advice is brilliant, as is Dittany's but you are both falling into the same trap as the OP

and that is to try and analyse her DH's behaviour, is he/isn't he an alkie, what are his motivations... etc

we said pages ago, the label doesn't matter so why now get our knickers/undies in a knot about what to call it

all this vrbal diarrhoea is likely to paralyse the OP more

whereas I feel she should be taking action, not debating

but don't go....your insight is invaluable

dittany · 18/01/2010 21:29

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AnyFucker · 18/01/2010 21:46

dittany, we agree she needs to take action though

not passively sit by waiting for him to see the light ?

'cos I don't think he will

< as you were, everybody >

dittany · 18/01/2010 21:55

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NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 08:11

wow! this has kicked off a bit

MIFLAW - don't go - I value your input VERY much indeed

I haven't had time to properly read through everything yet but thanks to you all for your thoughts feedback and advice (even the arguments are informative)

I'm still mulling over what to do and will see what he has to say on Friday

I was speaking to my sister last night and wondering aloud whether ASSUMING he came up with a plan like "no drinking at least until he meets the addictions counsellor at GPs and then we review things" (sort of in the spirit of MIFLAW's one day at a time approach) I would let him stay in the family home. We mulled it over and thought that would be fair/supportive etc but at the same time reflected that until he reaches rock bottom (as so many have said) he is probably not going to sort this out properly and we'll be just back on the merrygoround again. Neither me nor my sis judge him as having hit rock bottom yet. So therefore I guess I'd just be termed an "enabler" again. It is hard to just give up on someone, especially when they don't get obviously drunk, never nasty or abusive - there is just a constant niggle that things shouldn't be like this.

Yes, I know. Denial. Delusion. All as may be. This thread is helping me get things clearer though. Although to some of you it sounds like you doubt it and just despair if my ever pulling myself out. I will get there. Just need to go round some ever decreasing circles first perhaps.

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 09:43

just printed out a handbook on alcoholism and codependency from this website will read it before my session with therapist tomorrow

stuff on the website already seems frighteningly familiar

although it is written (it seems to me) to mostly support women you decide to stay in the marriage

I don't think I have the will/strength/call it what you will to stay if this is going to be the pattern for the duration

minor infidelity/lack of committment from him aside

OP posts:
NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake · 19/01/2010 09:43

women you who decide to stay

OP posts:
MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 10:22

Don't worry, I take more chasing than that ... But you were right, I shouldn't be getting into wrangles with posters apart from OP.

And, as I said, happy to be contacted off-thread too by anyone who feels I might be able to help on "this sort" of issue.

MIFLAW · 19/01/2010 10:34

Rock bottom's a funny thing. Can't remmeber if it was on this thread or another drink thread (I post too much on drink threads ...) but you really never can predict what will provoke a rock bottom.

I know alcoholics who have lost their children through drinking; alcoholics who found themselves living in a tent in the park; alcoholics who have wheeled their own drip stand out of a hospital ward to go and buy drink; alcoholics who have committed serious crimes while under the influence; and those things didn't stop them drinking. I first approached AA because of a car crash I had caused, but I drank again that night, and I drank every day up to my court appearance too, and afterwards, and ...

And yet I know these people because they are sober members of AA, so clearly SOMETHING stopped them drinking, and, probably, it was a lot less superficially distressing than the things that didn't stop them. I often hear (and say myself) that "my last drink wasn't particularly remarkable." There was just a sense (for me, and quite probably for these others too) that "this can't go on" or "is this really as good as it gets?" - a "moment of sanity."

It might take another 10 years for your husband to find it; or it might happen the minute after the door shuts behind him. If you still love him and can see a life for the two of you, do stay open minded and don't make "all or nothing" decisions now; but, at the same time, it's actions that count, not words. He might tell you he's stopping tomorrow. Perhaps he is. So wait till tomorrow, watch him stop, wait till the day after, see if it's a pattern or a fluke, and maybe then reassess. DON'T let him off with promises because drunks are experts at making promises - make sure he walks the walk as well as talks the talk.

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