Going round in circles - how do I move this on before I lose my mind???

[NotSureHowMuchMoreICanTake]

I've posted before as "regulary overwhelmed" and "evenboringmyselfnow". I keep thinking I am getting somewhere but then get stuck. Hoping I can get some support on here to help me make sense of it all and get the strength to do what i need to do.

Me and H have been together 16 years, have two DDs 7 and 4. There have been ups and downs over the years. He never wanted kids/marriage I did. We discussed a lot. I said I was going to have kids with or without him and did he want to hang around - he did. We had them. Things have been very up and down since. He is a big drinker (think c 100 units a week on a bad week, maybe 70-80 on a good, trying not to drink now for Jan and miserable as can be). I used to be but aren't now, apart from erratically and I don't much like getting drunk anymore - it makes me depressed and disappointed in myself.

We went for one round of counselling about 18 months ago. I've suffered really bad depression last 3 or so years and GP referred us for counselling in the hope it might help us address some issues I thought might be contributing to the depression. It wasn't a great success. He is very intellectual and a great talker and I think bamboozled poor counseller. He would just talk and talk and talk in our sessions abd they were very non-directed. Outside the sessions he wouldn't engage at all except one evening when he got very drnk and told me about minor fling he had had (the words "meteorological accident" might ring bells for anyone who read my previous threads) and about feeling he wanted to have sex with other people. I've never quite gotten to the bottom of wnether he really does, or whether that's just a fantasy but it was pretty hirtful at the time. Especially as he's been pretty off sex with me for ages and despite all the efforts I've made (date nights, sexy lingerie, you name it) that hasn't much changed.

Anyway...to the present...since September last we have been SUSR (Separated Under Same Roof). I've been doing my thing - he's been doing his. It's been ok. He seems happy enough with arrangement, head still firmly in sand about future, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't seem to want to think about it. Meanwhile I am in psychotherapy trying to figure myself out. Spoke to GP last week and she said she would be happy to try to support him with teh alcohol issues. I told him this and I could have sworn he said he'd go and see her but then yesterday he told me that was just my advice and he might not. We also agreed (I thought) last week that he would go and stay with some frineds from end of this month so that he would be forced to take his head out of the sand but again now he tells me that was my idea and he might not.

I don't know whether am coming or going. I don't know whether I want us to try to work on it more or whether it's just futile. The sensible part of me says its futi;e, if he hasn't faced up to it after 5 months separated he is not going to. His levels of disengagement are exstraordinary. But I feel the weight of all teh decision making is on me, and I resent that very much. I get angry with him about it and then just passive. Over xmas there was a real danger if he had shown willing that I would have fallen into bed with him and been back to square 1. He didn't show willing. I still like him a lot but am not sure I respect him anymore. I need some affection, physical and otherwise and oscillate between feeling really strong and sure I can move on and into better position to facilitate that, and feeling total despair and worrry about thefuture and whether am making right decisions.

Meanwhile colleague at work fancies me and is very affectuonate etc but is married. I love the affection from him but don't want to go down that route.

Oh can soemone talk sense into me and help me work out a plan.

Sorry about length and typos - rushing out to collect a child. Back soon

it's unacceptable that he won't let you come.

it will be to minimize the situation to the GP, if he goes at all.

demand you go or chuck him out.

seriously.

Not sure,

You can find your old thread by doing an advanced search with "wood and trees", I have just checked it is till ther. If not, as I said, I have it as a Word document and can forward it to you.

In relation to what I said in my last post, yes he is smelling the coffee and suddently starting to realise (gosh! about bl*dy time!). DO NOT expect him to agree with what you are saying regarding spliting up, he never will, to leave somebody like your partner, you need to take the decision and stick to it. You are more or less running the house/kids-decisions on your own ? Then you might need to expect to "run" the split on your own as well, if, of course this is what you want.
But I agree that it is a VERY difficult decision to take.

HI all - TMQ - thanks for that - I'll look up my old thread later - how are you doing by the way?

Blinks - I know you speak sense...but I don't make demands like that - I respect his autonomy too much and if he tells me categorically he doesn't want me to go but he is going I am going to respect that. I had a very heavy day at work anyway.

So, he went and he is awaiting an appointment to see the practice's addiction specialist. He said the GP said he could go two ways on it - either assume the depression (he came out as Moderately Depressed on her depresso-meter thingy) is causing the self medication and try tp deal with that OR else assume the alcohol is causing the depression. She didn't come down categorically on one side or the other. We spent the afternoon with our diaries open going through practical plans for childcare arrangements after the moving out which we are both still planning for end of this month. Unless he has anything more constructive to offer in terms of a plan on 22nd Jan that's what is on the cards. He said he is going to go to our friends rather than out into flat and he knows he needs to make all the arrangments that I am in total hands off mode now wrt his future.

He keeps asking whether I think he needs to totally give up booze and NEVER EVER drink again. I've said I really don't know. THat I suppose it depends on which of the scenarios the GP painted are true (if only it could be that black and white!) but that I have never seen him drink to normal limits so all I can assume is that he does have a problem, and I don't want it, and its effects to be my problem anymore, unless he is actively addressing it.

He later informed me he is going out with a friend of tuesday night and that it consituates a "special occasion" so he will probably drink champagne.

Appareantly his "non-drinking regime" includes drinking champagne on self designated "special occasions" - he says he told teh GP this and she seemed to think it was reasonable.

am going to try to make appt with GP myself this week and chat to her about it all again, see if she can give any insights having spoken to him now

Not

"Appareantly his "non-drinking regime" includes drinking champagne on self designated "special occasions" - he says he told the GP this and she seemed to think it was reasonable".

He will find any excuse to drink alcohol and keep drinking it. He is mired in denial like many alcoholics are. The "special occasions" is just the tip of a very big iceberg.

You only have his word re the above, my guess is the GP said nothing of the sort.
You only have his word anyway that he went and NHS services in this whole area are very patchy in terms of support. The whole family needs treatment re rehab, not just the alcoholic.

He does not want to sort out his alcohol issues at all; he just wants and needs you to keep propping him up. Why d'you think he keeps asking you if you think he needs to give up booze - again he is tranferring all the responsibility/onus onto you. He does not need to ask you that - he knows he cannot drink alcohol again but does not want to face up to that particular reality.

Alcohol as well acts as a depressant and he is likely to be self medicating.

You say you respect his autonomy but he sure as hell does not respect yours.

You cannot rescue and or save someone like this, you can only help your own self here. He is beyond your help actually and tbh you are the last person who can help him. I do not mean that unkindly but it is fact. You're as much caught up in the disease that is alcoholism as he is.

You have six days now till the 22nd - my guess is nothing much will change between now and then and he will move out on that date.

Ultimately you are not responsible for him.

Well done for sticking to your guns. It seems pretty clear he's still determined to ensure that he can drink in the future given a good enough excuse. I'm sorry that it means that you'll still be subjected to this kind of self-serving, manipulative, weasel-worded bullshit for a while longer.

The "champagne on special occasions" thing is so commonplace amongst alcoholics pretending they don't have a problem that it's almost a cliche. It's amazing how often special occasions can appear when they're needed by an alcoholic looking for an excuse to have a drink.

I met quite a few people in rehab who'd tried to limit their drinking by only drinking champagne. Also someone who only drank in the Far East and another one who only drank in casinos!

Needless to say: their special occasions, business trips and gambling became ever more frequent.

Oh, I hate agreeing with Dittany!

Notsure, I'm not sure either! What are you looking for in your thread?

Is he an alcoholic? - Yes.
Is he a husband? - No.
Is he a housemate? - Yes.
A decent father? - Yes (I assume).
Reliable? - No.
Good company? - Variable.

You haven't got a marriage. As you say, you crave and deserve intimacy, comfort and sex, none of which your relationship provides. You can't decently seek them elsewhere, however, because you still live with your husband - though not as man & wife.

I imagine you hope that, by controlling his drink problem, you'll be able to regain the good marriage you thought you had.

Like your other respondents, I feel that's a vain hope. All the same, let's suppose for a moment that we're all wrong. Let's imagine he stops drinking, recognises what a wonderful family he has and resumes his marital duties. At this point, you would find yourself committed to marriage with a person who's treated you apathetically & contemptuously, who has cheated on you and who told you he wanted to have sex with other people.

It's such an unexciting prospect, I really wouldn't advise investing any more of your emotional effort in it.

You do understand you can't control his drinking, don't you? I'm quite sure your husband will be content to hang around in limbo with you for as long as you maintain home comforts and he can have a dozen drinks at night. But why do you want that?

Wouldn't it be better to live in separate homes, rather than a wishy-washy pretence of a marriage? Wouldn't it be better to free yourself emotionally and physically; for your children to live in a stable home environment; perhaps to meet a more compatible partner? Wouldn't it be nicer not to worry every evening?

thanks again all

attila - he is definately "self-medicating" - he fully admits this. I know and accept I am not responsible for him. Apart from anything else he expects so much respect for his autonomy and thankfully over the past few months I seem to have learnt to extend this a bit further and allow it to encompass his drinking/future also. ALthough I still do have moments of uncertainty. Moments when I wish it could all just "be okay". I suppose the question he asks more than whether I think he needs to give up booze is whether I will stay with him if he doesn't. Ie does he need to give up booze totally in order to keep our relationship. I've never totally answered this question before, just let him draw his own conclusion that yes he does need to give it up totally. But deep down I suppose i'm not sure. Is he really an alcoholic or simply someone whose relationship and reliance on booze has gone awry and who could pull it back. I mean speaking personally - there was a time when any sane onlooker would have said I was a toatly dyed in wool alcoholic. I didn't go a day with out booze and would easily knock back a bottle to a bottle and a half of wine in an evening. More at weekends. I would get agitated at meals with people who drank less than me if the booze was running out. I'd have a drink the next day to get over the hangover of the night before etc etc etc. But I've changed. I can now have a glass or two of wine with ameal if I want. I often won't drink at all in a week, if I do it'll be on one or two evenings. I can go to parties and not drink at all. As long as I look after myself and keep out of company of Big Big drinkers on occasions when I have little else to do (stuck in house over xmas with H and his brother for example) then I get along fine. Though I suppose if am honest I did get a bit scared at my consumption over xmas and worked on not getting stuck in those old habits pretty swiftly once I realised what was happening. Oh I don't know.

I told him anyway that all i could see was that we were having major problems and one of the contributing factors was his alcohol dependency As Far As I Could See, and that it made sense for that to be taken out of equation in order to see what else was going on.

Anyway...

I didn't realise the "champagne on special occasions" was a real cliche. The way he puts it you would almost believe his rationale - he certainly does. I did tell him I doubted the GP thought it was reasonable. Apparantly she asked him how many special occasions he envisaged coming up. SHe has obviously heard it all before.

Dittany there are a number of things stopping me just pulling the plug on the relationship right now. It may look very black and white from the outside but it is harder to have that clarity when in the relationship. I don't think I am trying to talk myself out of acting. I am acting. He has woken up more in the couple of weeks in 2010 than ever before. He knows I am serious and he will be moving out at end of month UNLESS he has a measurable tangible plan of action in place. I am not holding my breath on this and fully expect him to go. That's why we sat down yesterday and worked out logistics for when he is no longer in the house. I work long hours and he will need to come to mine very early in am some mornings to get kids up and ready for school etc etc. What is holding me to the relationship? he is a GOOD man. I like him. He is funny and amusing and has always been there for me in his way (I'm not always easy - have suffered depression etc ) You say he can't be a good dad, and in ways he is a bit distant at times, but then so am I. I'm not a perfect mum. He is brilliant with our kids in many ways though. When they are ill, which they have been for past couple of weeks, it is him who does everything. He has been up every night with one or other of them. He has researched how to help them as the GP said it's just a viral infection they eed to get over. He does steam inhalation, special drinks, echinacea etc etc all stuff I wouldn't have the patience for. He has taken more tim eoff work than me to be on hand when they can't go to school. He is wonderful at encouraging me to go out and do things and holding the fort at home when I do. You know, he is a nice man who has some major issues. I suppose in essence that's what's held me so far. But over the course of the past year I've grown in awareness that he needs to deal with those issues and get over them somehow in order to be a really engaged partner and father. And that's where we are now.

GraceAgain - thank you for your really helpful messages - i think your statement "Like your other respondents, I feel that's a vain hope. All the same, let's suppose for a moment that we're all wrong. Let's imagine he stops drinking, recognises what a wonderful family he has and resumes his marital duties. At this point, you would find yourself committed to marriage with a person who's treated you apathetically & contemptuously, who has cheated on you and who told you he wanted to have sex with other people." really REALLY struck home with me. You are right. I need to remember this in the midst of my sympathy and emptahy for his situation. Thank you.

(gosh - such a long reply - blimey!)

The "champagne on special occasions" often arises from the fear of stopping for ever. You start booking in future dates when you can drink. This is precisely why AA and many other ways of stopping advocate a "one day at a time" approach - a pledge forever is dead in the water because it's so frighhtening.

To be fair to the guy, it is just possible that his GP did okay it - a lot of GPs don't really "get" alcoholism and think it is just heavy drinking whereby, if you abstain for a while, you get back to normal. (For that matter, a lot of GPs are undiagnosed alcoholics and have their own agendas ...)Sadly, alcoholism is more like virginity - you cross the line once and that's it, you're fucked (if you'll pardon the pun.)

He almost certainly IS bullshitting you (or at least himself) on the depression front, though, because, whichever "type" of depression it is, the doctor is going to ask him to stop drinking, because alcohol and anti-depressants really do not agree with each other.

One more thing. "there was a time when any sane onlooker would have said I was a toatly dyed in wool alcoholic. I didn't go a day with out booze and would easily knock back a bottle to a bottle and a half of wine in an evening. More at weekends. I would get agitated at meals with people who drank less than me if the booze was running out. I'd have a drink the next day to get over the hangover of the night before etc etc etc. But I've changed." Exactly - you've changed. Ask yourself what happened in your life (children, new job, boredom) that made you make that "change". Then ask yourself why it didn't have the same effect on him ...

I used to have a girlfriend. We drank A LOT together, and she certainly drank more than you used to. I was still the heavier drinker of the two of us, but frankly there wasn't much in it. Now I am an alcoholic (albeit in recovery) and she is not. Go figure. It may not seem fair, but it's like that. HIS behaviour and drinking defines whether he is an alcoholic, not yours - it is an absolute condition, not a relative one.

As in, she is NOT an alcoholic.

y'see that's the question MIFLAW - is he an alcoholic? if so I have to tell him no more boozing ever. Or is he like me and your ex and just needs that wake up call to get things back to reasonable limits.

My wake up was boredom (yawn - drinking a lot does get so bloody tedious, makes you look and feel crap, makes you talk crap, is BORING) and of course the kids. I guess these things haven't had the same effect on him. Does this mean he is an alcoholic that must never ever drink again, or that his catalyst for change hasn't happened yet. I don't know. And tbh I'm not too hung up on it it's just he keeps asking whether he needs to give it up totally for us to stay together. I suppose the fact he is SO focussed on that should tell me all I need to know really...

thanks MIFLAW

I think you are missing the point.

He has had all the wake up calls a normal person needs. If they have not worked, it would be a reasonable assumption that he has a problem with drink.

however, whether you or I or even his GP diagnose or label him as a problem drinker makes no difference to anyone. It is up to him to decide it is a problem and then to move on accordingly.

My advice to you would be never to tell a suspected alcoholic that they can never drink again as they won't even bother to try. It's like you taking up jogging and then I tell you I've booked you in for a marathon next Sunday.

It is only your business in the first place if you decide you want to maintain a relationship of some kind with him. If you do, keep it fact-based. Tell him that you would like him to get help to stop drinking. Recommend AA or, if you have a better idea, recommend that instead. Tell him he need only stop drinking one day at a time and you will therefore do likewise and take the relationship one day at a time. If, just for today, he hasn't had a drink, then just for today, the relationship is on. If he does drink, then you, he and the relationship are back to where you are now, and it may require a re-think.

You may not like doing things this way, but "taking the pledge" almost NEVER works. One day at a time is much more practical and has a much greater chance of success. If I depend on drink to function, how can I promise you that at my daughter's wedding, or next time a relative dies, or next time I win a tenner on the lottery, or next time I break a shoe lace, I won't have a drink? But maybe I can promise myself - and, indirectly, you - that today I will do my level best not to drink, and leave tomorrow till tomorrow. THAT seems doable, if challenging, and it's something I may be willing to have a shot at.

I do agree that what you used to do isn't relevant. You got out of that behaviour but he's stuck in it.

Also, are you sure the question is truly whether he is an alcoholic?. Isn't the question "Can you please stop drinking so we can have a try at sorting things out?"

If he does, he may still be an alcoholic but you can both take stock and see where you are-with each other, and generally. That could lead to a real break-through for your marriage. If he doesn't, he may not be an alcoholic, but the marriage is probably in serious trouble.

And in the end, surely, it should be reason enough that you've asked him to stop drinking.

yes, I see what you are both saying. Thanks. Your perspectives are very helpful.

He is not drinking at the moment and hasn't for over two weeks now. Is planning to drink tomorrow night though.

I agree, my refrain all the end of last year was that any other man I know, if told by his wife that she thought they had problems enough to cause a separation and that possibly at the root of those problems was his drinking, would just stop, and try to address the issues, if he wanted to keep the marriage going.

I don't think he knows whether he wants it to keep going. He gives me weasel words like "you seem to have movedon so much, you are firm in your mind we need to separate, I don't want to take responsibility for changing this and dragging you back" - cheers mate!

and over the weekend he told me he didn't know if he could ever feel desire/passion for me again as his overriding feeling at the moment is resntment at what I am asking him to do

oh dear, I think that last paragraph is sounding the death knell for your marriage...

suspect you are right AF

onwards and up eh?! him saying stuff like that makes the end feel a bit more inevitable, which when you are a ditherer open minded see both sides pathologically indecisive kind of person like me can be helpful

FWIW if there was any way of proving it I would stake a large amount of hard cash on the following:

1. him turning out to be an alcoholic

Then I would make it what the racing fraternity call a "double" by putting those winnings onto a bet whereby, if he ever realises this, it will become clear that the rest ("I don't want to take responsibility for changing this and dragging you back"; "I feel resentment"; "I can drink on special occasions and I decide what those occasions are") are desperate defence tactics to avoid confronting that issue and thereby having to act on it.

It's up to you what you do with that info. Just remember, in his defence, he is a sick man, not a bad man; and alcoholics can and do get well and stay well and repay the faith you put in them a dozen times over - but only if they realise they need to change in the first place.

dittany - you don't know this man. he doesn't drink all day. no way. he is really conscientious and would never drive after a drink (I've known him 16 years - he's never done it) There are many occasions when I've got home and he has had to drive me somewhere/pick up kids and he does it without problem. There have also been a few occasions when I've got home about 7 and he has had a beer and so won't drive to pick up kids and I've had to do it and gotten narky about it so it would have been in his interests to lie if he wanted to avoid agro. He is not "pushing me out the door" he is just supportive when I do want to go out. When I have something I want to go too. You seem to be painting him like some sort of poisonous demon. WHich he is not. Just a moderately depressed man with issues he can't quite seem to face who I need to move on from but am finding difficult because underneath it all I care for him and I know he cares for us.

Let's just face it - you can't get a full picture of someone from a MN thread. I acknowledge I am be/have been deluded on many issues to do with my relnship with him but he is not a BAD person and he does not drink all day or in secret. Of these issues I am sure.

Will I let the kids spend time with him drunk - he is conscientious enough not to get "drunk" while they are with him. Indeed he rarely gets "drunk" as I would. He will remain a big part of their lives and I will monitor his behaviour around them closely. I am not going to stop the kids having a relationship with their dad.

MIFLAW - I am with you on your judgements - just trying to gauge how much more effort to put into this now. And coming to conclusion it is not going to be a lot.

Everything comes down to his recognisng the need to change himself, and I don't think he is there yet. Whether he ever will be is quite another question.