Toxic Dad – sorry a bit complex

[twoteachers]

DH and I have been married for three years now. We are both teachers and as we live roughly half way between our two sets of parents we see them about the same number of times per year. Suddenly my parents have announced that they are planning to move to the town where we live but without giving us any obvious reason why. It very much seems to be Dad?s idea and I don?t think Mum is that keen.

I had a very difficult relationship with Dad when I was living a home. Sometimes he was violent, sometimes there was some ?accidental? but inappropriate touching and really we just didn?t get on from when I was 14 to 22. I don?t want him back in my life more than he is a present. I still feel a bit uneasy being on my own with him and he makes my flesh crawl if he even touches me socially.

Neither DH or I know what to do.

Twoteachers, I have no useful advice but wanted to say I am so sorry you are going through this. It sounds like your mum will deny, deny, deny; to do anything else would mean she would have to accept responsibility for being an awful parent to you.
Have you thought about cutting off contact with them? I know it is easy to say, standing on the sidelines, but I really wonder if that would be the best thing and give you a chance to continue your life without worrying about potential harm to your family.

cathcat i agree

two teachers have been through very similar .....

i would say if they still want to come after what you are telling them then they are even more 'toxic'

i have cut ties with both of mine as they outright refused to accept what had happened to me - despite judge and jury telling them different.....

take the therapy and cut ties - you can be well and happy with your own lovely family x

Twoteachers I'm glad you cam back with the updates (I was lady of the bathtub in earlier posts).

I think you are doing brilliantly. It's horribly upsetting for you to have to go over these things with your mum being so obstructive, but on the other hand you have made a good start with the therapy - please carry on because I really believe it will give you more and more strength and clarity, even if it's sometimes difficult.

I want to say loud and clear (though I know you realise this) again what others have said. What both your parents did was bad and wrong. You are in the right. And you do not have to see either of them for a second more than you choose to, even if that's not at all. And if and when you have DC, you do not have to let them see your DC - and you have absolutely every reason not to if that's what you decide.

You have all the power and hold all the cards because you did nothing wrong and you are free to make these choices now. Please never let these two sorry excuses for parents make you feel bad or manipulate you.

agree madame and i did want to say twoteachers stop with the blushes.

you have NOTHING to be ashamed of x

I just want to send love and best wishes to you as someone who 'knows'.

Twoteachers - I've been following this thread. While I can't claim to have been in your circumstances, I can see you've had excellent advice.

So sorry your mum has turned out to be such a, well, arse.

Keep yourself strong; as you must, because no acknowledgment seems to be coming from your parents.

What they did, and it WAS "they ', was and is wrong. i emphasise the "is ' because the continued denial is continued abuse.

Chin up.

Have read this thread i realy don't know what to other then please go to the stately home thread as they will have so much help and support for you.

Twoteachers

I have only just seen what happened on Tuesday with regards to that joint meeting. If you continue with counselling and I strongly suggest that you do, you do this on your own and without either your Mum and Dad present. Infact if I had seen what you had written before I would have advised you not to go ahead with any joint meeting at all as it would have been a complete waste of time (as it has been sadly proven). Your Mum has taken the path of easy resistance and will back her H no matter what. Given a choice between you and he she will choose him.

I do not say this lightly but I would seriously consider cutting them both off completely from your life. You do not need them. Take some power back for your own self now. Read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward as well, she writes about abuse and dysfunctional families.

What happened to you when you were young was not your fault in any way, you did not bring this upon yourself. Your abusive parents (and I use the plural here as your Mother was complicit in this by not protecting you from him) have failed you abjectly.

You are 100 percent correct I should not have had any meeting with my Mum present. I thought it would help me to find out if she was too scared to stop the abuse, too stupid to realise the extent of the abuse or if she actually quite enjoyed watching it. I think it was the third of the three and I cannot see any way out other than having no further contact. It does seem like a big decision to have to make.

It is a big decision, and it's all very sad. You will have to go through a grieving process when you make the decision and as you continue with your own emotionally independent life. But you owe these people nothing. Keep up the counseling and try to find a way forward with your DH and maybe future children that does not involve your "parents". They do not deserve to have you in their lives.

They certainly don´t deserve you, or imo any future grandchildren.

Are you an only child?

It's so horrible when one parent is abusive and the other just hangs around and denies, and ultimately puts their relationship ahead of the safety of any children involved. Yuck.

My parents are still together, despite my dad's dreadful behaviour. It destroys lives.

Try and get as much support as you possibly can, keep talking, and things can change. I found Womens Aid very helpful. Abuse and Domestic Violence is more than being beaten black and blue. NACAP also is very helpful.

With lots of support and help, you will find yourself in a much better position to cope wherever your parents live.

I am feeling very down at the moment. I know severing all links with my parents is the right thing to do but it makes me feel so sad.

It's a huge step and I don't know if you do have to see it like that, especially if it upsets you so much.

For example you could still arrange to see them, or just your mum if you prefer, occasionally on your own terms. You could say them moving closer will not influence you but you don't mind meeting once in a while for lunch or coffee etc. If you keep talking to your mum, it may happen that she comes round to your point of view and can accept the truth about what went on. It may be that she is at the start of her own process of admitting to herself what her husband did and even possibly ending her marriage, as my mum eventually did.

One option would be to write your mum a letter explaining why you are so upset, and why you feel much less or possibly no contact with them is something you are having to consider - but leaving the door open by explaining that if she could own up to what happened and take responsibility for it, you would be prepared to discuss that.

I have found that when you grow up and have your own relationship and then DC too, there is a new sense of grief about what your own parent(s) failed to be, and it can hit you again and again. One source of strength though is knowing that instead of repeating the cycle, you will use the knowledge of what happened to you to make sure your own DC have a much better time. You can do that.

I have to disagree with MadameDuBain, because I don't think this particular set of parents will ever do anything on Twoteacher's terms. She will always be in the position of a little pet begging for scraps of emotional support at their table, and they will never give her what she needs. And they seem like the kind of people who take a mile if you give them an inch. They are pushy and unashamed and they think they have some moral right to treat her as if her feelings don't matter. Even to the point of roping in the silly vicar on their side .

Cutting off links doesn't erase the pain that has been present up to now in the relationship. That will always be there, and it will rear its ugly head again and again. But keeping them out of her life will prevent them from inflicting any more damage -- I have in mind the trauma Twoteachers suffered when she met her mum just recently. There is pain ahead, and a grieving process. Silentcatastrophe's advice is spot on wrt counseling.

I do see your point as well math. And I have cut off my dad completely with no regrets, so I can certainly recommend that route in a case like this.

But I think twoteachers has come up against all this relatively suddenly, triggered by her parents announcing the move, and it's a huge emotional upheaval, so I was really just suggesting ways of digesting it all a bit more slowly.

It's about finding the right way for you twoteachers so please do take all these as just suggestions.

Twoteachers

I would have to disagree with Madame;s initial counsel as well primarily because your abusive parents are fully behind one another here and will put each other's needs and wants well before yours. Look at their actions now, they are still trying to control and have power over you. Abuse is all about power and control. As for that letter they wrote you initially; they wanted to meet you with the vicar as referee. Yeah right. Again this is another example of wanting power and control over you.

They are two very dangerous individuals.

You tried meeting with your Mum and look where that got you. I was not unfortunately altogether surprised; meetings with toxic parents rarely go well and frequently turn bad very quickly.

I tell you now neither parent will ever apologise to you, will deny everything you put to them (they'll give you a laundry list of your own supposed shortcomings in response) and will never accept any responsibility for their actions.

Perhaps you feel sad not so much for losing them as parents as they are truly toxic but more for the loss of a parental relationship.
This should be worked through with counselling; you are an abuse survivor and counsellors are like shoes; you need to find someone that "fits". BACP have a list of counsellors as well and they don't charge the earth.

Do read "Toxic Parents" if you haven't already done so.

JesusChristOtterStar - I do find it very hard not feel ashamed when I remember what happened and I even blush when I mention bits of it to DH. But I feel proud that over four years I never begged, never cried out (except for the one time with the cane), and never accepted the "I would not have to hit you so hard if ...." offers. I am also very proud of DH for not even wanting to go round and beat my Dad to pulp. It is school next week and I am away this weekend but I might (proably will) post on Saturday week. Thank you for all the the support.

two teacher i know so much what you mean and yes i have done the blushing bit..

what 'gets' me most about your story is almost what your dh said about you not needing to 'worry yet' about your father and your children.

Imagine saying that out loud in a group of people who also have suffered some degree of abuse. Imagine how it sounds.....

You know it is wrong of your father to make you have to even thin that let alone vocalise your fears... It is your parents who are forcing you into making this decision. You want them to open up and admit and accept what has happened and seek some sort of help

they are refusing..It is THEM that are responsible for the rift.

You are protecting your own and yourselves in a way that your parents did not

Re counselling - i did not find the small amount i had helpful, it was awful tbh and i dreaded it

what i did have was a group project where women met with two leaders - all of us were victims of very very differeing degrees of abuse. This 12 week course helped me greatly, stopped me feeling embarrased and ashamed and taught me unequivocally who was to blame for my problems....

this is just a suggestion

Maybe you could say to your mum - ask her to broach it with your dad - see if they can talk anything true and see if any one 'sees the light' as it were....basically put the ball in their court.. Tell her you think this is a crisis point and you need answers otherwise you may feel forced to cut ties.

ooh this has turned into an essay

I did not want break ties with ALL my family but this is what has happened and for me it has been positive - I am the innocent party. I am free of any guilt

sorry about all sps and even wrong words

I don't have much to report. I suppose that the phone call from Mum accepting that I was clearly very upset in the recent meeting could have been seen as progress had she not followed it up with something along the lines that "clearly you believe there was a problem during your childhood". The large packet in my Dads handwriting is still sitting unopened by the front door. I am 95% certain that it will be nasty in some way.

You poor lady - these two don't deserve you in their lives. What vile bullies and abusers. If I were you I would be taking out an injunction against them and I would NOT under ANY circumstances allow them access to any children you have.

Your story about the caning has made me cry btw - they are both completely sick and should be brought to task for what they hae subjected you to.

Do buy the Toxic Parents book - there's also another called 'If you had controlling parents' which is very good.

Lots of love to you.

If you open that package and it is something unpleasant - can you call the police and give them an overview of what is happening? The more you start to take charge of your own life and assert your independence of them, the worse their bullying is likely to get, so I would start logging any nastiness from them immediately.

Good luck Twoteachers.

twoteachers - firstly if you can't face it you don't have to break off contact with your parents forever. You can take a break from them (ask them not to contact you for 3 months) and then decide at the end of that.

Secondly you do not have to open the package from your dad. You can throw it away, burn it, send it back. Or you can get your dh to read it first and give you a summary.

Thirdly even if your parents move to the same town as you you do not have to see them.

It may feel like they are in total control of what happens now but they are not. Take back the control and decide what is best for you.

It is hard and heartbreaking. The worst thing I found about dealing with my parents (although not as bad as yours) was that I still love them and what I want most in the world is for them to say sorry and prove they love me. I want to give them oppotunities to do that. However I am beginning to accept that that will never happen. But that has been the hardest part.

You need to grieve for the relationship you have never had. For the parents you have never had. For the childhood they ruined.

I would say take a break from them. If you don't want it to it needn't be forever. Whether it feels like it or not, do you have the power to decide whether they take a part in your life or not.

twoteachers, I am so sorry this has all come up to bite you.

Some people go their whole lives without ever facing up to what happened to them, so be very proud of yourself.

TheArmadillo is right, it is natural to feel sad and to grieve when you end contact with parents. Even with everything that happened, the child that loved them and wanted their love and protection is still inside you somewhere.

Also true that how much contact you have with them is up to you.

And finally - you have done so much already this month. After all you've been through, don't feel you still need to be solving problems and finding solutions to things that are decades old and not your fault. I know that your mind will be reeling and it will be hard to think of anything else. If I were you I would arrange something nice for myself - a little holiday or some such.

I'm feeling quite brave because DH and I read the package from my Dad together and I was also able to tell DH all the nastiest bits from my childhood that I had never told him before. To my total lack of surprise the package contained a whole list of my faults, my misdeeds, my lies and distortions and how my troubled teens years had ruined the family. Pretty much as Mumsnet readers had predicted in fact. What was seriously strange was the fact that the whole document was laser printed, spiral bound and read like the history of a totally different family to the one I remember. It seems I was only punished as a last resort and in strict moderation: or so Dad would have me believe. I now hate him more than ever

My DH was a star throughout what was a two hankie job. I have written and posted (so no going back) a letter asking for no further contact with my Dad until January 2010. This might give me a bit of breathing space.