Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

FAB & GLAM 10 - Gosh, Do We Really Talk That Much???

1000 replies

Dumbledior · 26/07/2009 21:51

Hi, new thread

Lovely to see all the old posters again. Don't go now you are back.

Annie/UC/MHIS - lovely to see you and thanks MHIS for the FB chat.

OP posts:
TimeForMe · 09/03/2010 18:44

Thank you for your lovely words Annie it's good to be posting genuinely good news and mean what I say. We really are happy!! And it's a wonderful feeling!! And it's only week two!! Two weeks today!!

Thank you to you too Tanee. It's good to be back, properly back!! I was thinking of changing my name but maybe it really is Time For Me now. And DD of course

Hope you are ok Baffy?

HappyWoman · 09/03/2010 18:56

oh baffy - really feel for you you can feel the pain in your post.

Do you know it is so much easier to put myself first now because H helps me to do that.

One of my fears was that h was staying for the wrong reasons and again when i get a bit low it does still cross my mind. But he has shown with everything he can that is not the case.
Words are cheap - actions are so much harder to carry through for a longer period.
each day i see evidence that h is here for the long term.

I have never given him anymore commitment than as long as we are happy and in particular me we will stay together. Slowly slowly as time goes by it is adding to the foundations of our relationship.

My h did a lot of work to try and figure out why it happened - he still does not have all of the answers but he is always willing to explore new ideas and it is so wonderful to be able to witness his transformation.

I never thought i would see any advantanges but there are lots

we spend more time together
i am never afraid to tell him how i feel
i have some lovely new jewllery
i now know i will survive
i am not scared to be on my own

I still tend to overthink from time to time but again we are better at spotting these things and doing something about them.

Take care baffy - keep posting

HappyWoman · 09/03/2010 18:59

oh and on my dilema.........

well you were all right - i could never do it .

i shall enjoy my thoughts and that is it!
but thanks for being here for me with your cold water .

a bit worried that everyone seems to know me better than i know myself

Anniegetyourgun · 10/03/2010 08:35

Hey, if we could all see our own insides clearly, there'd be no need for counselling would there? An entire profession wiped out overnight. Sometimes it's easier to see from the outside.

Givenchy · 10/03/2010 11:49

TFM - I am so glad that you are happy. What is the next step re housing etc?

Baffy - I agree with EVERYTHING TFM and Annie are saying to you. He saw that you allowed him back - because you loved him - and has slowly begun to take advantage. Of course, there has to be an element of moving on in the relationship - it can't all come back to the past every time you have a spat - BUT he needs to remember what he did and just how lucky he was to get you back. It doesn't seem like he thinks he was lucky .

Tanee - did he go to the interview?

TimeForMe · 10/03/2010 13:32

Hi everyone

Annie, I sit in counselling talking and listening and all the while I know what I should be doing, thinking, feeling etc, I know exactly what's going on with me and what I have to do but it is just so nice to have someone confirm it, to feel validated. To give me permission to feel and to believe what I feel I suppose. Maybe that is a bit of what Baffy needs from us right now?

Thank you Givenchy for your lovely words Yes, the next step is housing but only when I feel ready. At the moment I am in a safe and secure place and P knows that. He has to behave himself. He is constantly asking if I have found a house and has even been to see a house that he wanted to buy for me I point blank refused that of course, there is no way I would ever live in a house he owns!! I have a feeling he is waitng for me to leave here so he can put the pressure on so, until I feel strong enough to deal with him without feeling threatened or afraid then I am staying put!! I have a meeting next week to discuss all of that so that's good. The support here is wonderful and I feel so safe, I know they will help me every step of the way. P meanwhile knows that too, and hates it!!!

Hi to everyone else Baffy I hope you are ok, it would be lovely to hear from you. We totally understand if you are back to being head over heels in love with H again and are busy picking up and washing his grotty undies!

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 10:21

Baffy - you ok?

Let us know - we will not judge you.

Come back and talk soon.

ladylush · 11/03/2010 11:52

Baffy I hope you are ok. Are you going to talk to h and tell him how you feel? I wonder if you not bothering to talk to him (because you don't see the point iyswim) suits him and enables him to carry on as normal. If you really have had enough, maybe you need to pass back the responsibility to him and tell him that he isn't doing enough (for your relationship and also household stuff) and that he prioritises his own pursuits at the expense of you and the family.

Baffy · 11/03/2010 13:06

Hello everyone

Thanks so much for the words of wisdom. I really did need to just get everything out.
Although thinking this is a safe place where nobody judges was probably a step too far

LL you are right. Me not talking does allow him to carry on. That's why I know I do need to do something.
I'm ok. In a daze really as I know what needs to happen next. I really still don't see the point in talking even though we have to. As I say, I'm absolutely sick to death of all of this. If we talk, he will explain that he just doesn't know why he is like he is, he's so lucky to have me and he knows that he is, I'm the best wife ever, blah blah blah. I could write his responses now so it's pointless.

I think you're all right though. He does this because I let him. And I continue to let him.

It's just where do I go from here. He's a good dad, he's a nice person, he's not abusive, he's good company (when he wants to be!). People live in far far worse situations. So yes, I think there is an element of guilt on my part at splitting the family up when he is actually quite happy to stay for now (well why wouldn't he be with me looking after him! As long as he gets his freedom hey.)

But as things are, I feel like I'm just waiting for his next affair. Because lets face it, anyone who is in a marriage for the wrong reasons would absolutely jump at the first sign of attention from someone they are attracted to. It would bring back all those feelings he's not currently having. I know it would happen if the circumstances were right.

Similarly I do wonder how I would respond these days in that situation. If I actually met someone who was attracted to me, who gave me time and attention, who made me feel alive and special again - it scares me at what I may do and I have never felt like this before.

Annie, I guess when you say why didn't I ask him to clean up, I just don't see the point. That's just not me. Then I really would feel like his mother and it would give me no satisfaction that he had done it. I'd just rather quietly get on with these things myself and then it's done. Then moan here! For me I think it's not about him doing these things, which probably sounds stupid to you, it's about him thinking to do them and offering. In all reality, I'd probably rather him play with the boys and stay out of my way anyway (as I'm a bit OCD when it comes to cleaning!). Like you say, it's about me feeling like his equal and his wife, not the person who looks after him.

Funny you guys saying the same things I think though, I often feel like I have 3 children and that's just not how it should be!

I'm a lot calmer now. But I actually still do feel that this is it.
I actually wondered if he had read MN the other day as that night, I got in and he had cleaned up and started tea, and has been asking me all week what he can do to help out and what needs doing.
Part of me was thinking this morning is whether this is his way of reeling me back in, being good around the house and attentive for a little while because I exploded so badly. Then when the dust has settled, he can go back to his old ways.

Whilst I can say that I don't believe for 1 second he would do that deliberately, I think that subconsciously that could be exactly what he's doing. Not maliciously. But because that's what he needs to do for his survival.
His 'good thing' is about to walk away and he is doing just enough to stop that from happening...

I do agree when you're saying just do enough washing/shopping etc for me and the children. But honestly for me, that's not the crux of the problem. He'd do his own washing and shopping. He lived on his own for nearly 2 years just recently didn't he and he coped fine (although nothing was ever well washed or ironed but you get what I mean! ). Living like that would just turn into living hell for me and I'd really rather live like that in separate places and not put us all through it.

TFM, when you say have a long hard think about what I want from my relationship I know the answer already. I want to feel loved. That's it.
Like I say, I'm OCD about the house anyway, I actually get a stupid sense of satisfaction from getting everything clean and sorted etc etc. I think me moaning about all of that stuff is just a symptom of the real underlying issue. I just don't feel that I get the love and consideration that a wife should get. I know he appreciates me. Loves me. But like you all say, probably like any boy appreciates and loves his mum. I just don't get any desire from him anymore. Nothing. And it's making me pick at him in other ways. But really, it's about the love.

HW, I think hearing you talk about the effort your dh now puts in, makes me realise just how much effort he doesn't iyswim!

TFM I think you're right about the empty threats too. I know it's pointless and just gives him even more reason to carry on because nothing changes.

I don't think I want to live separate lives under the same roof though. I want to be a couple or if not, what's the point.

I guess I feel so sick at the thought of actually splitting up my family.

I am going to talk to him this weekend and although I'm a lot calmer now, nothing has changed for me. I can't carry on like this and I still mean that I want him to leave. Well I actually want us to give up the house and get our own places that we can afford. HW, like you, I now know I am not scared to be on my own.

Saying that calmly in the cold light of day is going to kill me. But TFM, when you say command respect, it may not be in the way you meant, but I hope that he will respect the fact that I can't live with second best anymore. I'm giving up perhaps what many people would consider to be an ok life. But I think it's the right thing to do. I can't make him love me the way I want and unless I decide to accept this and carry on as things are, then I don't see any other choice.
Wish me luck

TFM how are you doing?
I can't believe he hadn't spoken to you for 16 days!! How you got the strength to leave is amazing. I am so glad you are staying put there for now. Him buying you a house?! WTF! Does he not realise that you now understand his controlling behaviour and have found a way out of it? Why on earth you would then put yourself right back into his control?!

I think he is the one who needs counselling tbh. To even still be suggesting things like that.

But I agree with you too, until you are strong enough to not only get your own place, but deal with the inevitable pressure that will then come from him when you have no other support or protection (so to speak), then you're absolutely right to stay right where you are!

As long as you and dd are happy and safe that's all that matters Everything else will fall into place in its own time.

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 15:22

Baffy - I really do know how you feel.

Do you almost want him to have another affair - so it will be 'his' fault iyswim.

I also know how you feel re: if someone else came along - read some of my posts below. I talked to h about this and he was so wonderful about it - i did meet up with said person and give in to my lust . But i do know what you mean about wanting desire again.
I think i wanted a bit of what ow had - passionate sex in a hotel room in the afternoon - i just want to experience that level of desire and passion.

His words are not enough anymore - he needs to act and i personally think one of those things is for him to WANT to discover the reasons for his affair - My dh has really worked hard on that and faced some pretty awful truths about himself and his childhood (not a bad one but it is about what needs of his were/werent being met).

I am sorry but i would lose my patience far quicker than you if he just shugged and said i dunno why i did it - surely that means there is a chance it could happen again!!! Does he not even realise that this is going to be a real fear of yours - and unless he can show that he can understand his own behaviour why on earth would any of that trust come back.

I know he is a good man and a good father - but you are now seeing that you NEED something that he is unwilling to give you.

Some people are givers and some takers - I think you are a giver and i think your h could be if he wanted to - my h is still a taker but has learnt that giving has its rewards too and he has also learnt to allow others to sometimes get their way.

Hope that helps - stay strong and stick to YOUR boundaries -they are yours and you have a right to expect respect for them.

Baffy · 11/03/2010 15:38

Thanks HW

I don't think I want him to overstep that line again, the pain of an affair is just too much to bear. I think what I want, is something I'm now realising I can't have.

I want him to want me. More than anything in the world, to just want me, and want to be with me, and to show me that.

If I'm harsh with myself then I know that if he wanted that too, I would know about it.

Lets face it, the outside stresses are a problem, but they are not the cause of this.

He was going through the absolute worst time of his life when he split up with me and was not seeing his son. It was hell. Do I think for one second that that dampened the passion between him and OW? Did it stop them being close? Did it stop him doing everything he could to steal precious time with her and be close to her. No it didn't. Because it was what he wanted.

So even though he can't articulate that. Or more realistically, he doesn't want to face that. I do have my answer.

I think it may even be a relief to him to be free from living in this world that 'should' be perfect. Trying to make himself feel that he has this perfect wife and he's so lucky he got a second chance, when deep down, that's not how he feels. It's not what he wants. And time is proving it.

We both just need to admit it now don't we. There is no way forward in any direction until we face up to this. And I think some genuine time apart, building our own lives, is all that is left to do.

Thanks for your support xx

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 16:10

I think you do know the answer.
For a while i too felt like that. H would hate it as i would go off on my own and 'think'. But he was always there for me - and still is - in fact the staying on the sofa and just watching films really is our idea of a good night!!

I think was you are both doing is not being totally honest with each other. You should be able to say these things to him and instead of being scared it will upset him he should be there comforting you. Sorry if that upsets you but he just should.

You are not stupid and of course you are going to wonder if he is with you for the right reasons - he should want to reassure you all the time not just want it to all go away.

There was a while when i was having doubts and h said he was willing to whatever it took - if it meant us splitting up he would do so and support us as a family - but that he would know it was of his doing. He wanted me to be happy and i think he still does.

Be brave baffy - nothing is for certain and he needs to start to court you again. If he is the one he will wait and make you see that.

You are not being selfish for wanting to be happy for yourself.

Anniegetyourgun · 11/03/2010 16:30

Oh dear, I did come over a bit harsh, didn't I? I was reacting to Baffy saying to give her a slap for not being happy in the situation, and going no, no, you're not to blame; and then it sort of turned out looking like she WAS to blame. That isn't quite what I meant. Bottom line is, it upsets me to see someone so nice being taken for a ride and then feeling guilty for not being happy about it. I'd like to say look, you are seeing it clearly, you are perfectly justified in feeling this way, but the next step is KICK SOME ASS. Preferably his. Not necessarily out the door, not necessarily for ever, but jolly hard anyway. You are entitled to, and it will probably do him some good!

About him wanting to be close to her in a way he doesn't seem to with you: I think you're over-imagining that. You're thinking how much you would have to care about someone to give up so much to be with them. Don't you think, in his case, that the attraction was that it was wild and forbidden, that he was making a massive gesture of kicking over the traces, driven by the bombshell his parents dropped; it was actually nothing to do with her as a person, or who he'd rather be with. Lovely wife at home, all legal and safe, vs the chance to be Bad with a capital B. Now he's back from the wild ride, everything as it should be but somehow a little dull. He's feeling it and you're seeing him feeling it. Does that make sense?

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 17:04

Annie - thats a good way of looking at - ow would never have been the woman he would want.

i think that is what shocks my h most now - she left her kids for him ffs - what man really wants a woman like that?
And she had the cheek to start to plan family holidays with all the kids - her 2 and our 4!!! I can almost laugh at it now - it would have been funny to see her struggle. In fact sometimes we do have a giggle about it.
The woman he had the affair with - was of course able to tend to his every (sexual) need - whilst i was at home looking after all the things that were dear to him. But she was never the woman he really wanted - and he knew it would never work.

He says he was able to seperate the two things and did know that he was lying to himself at the time. He did not want to end the marriage and he was very honest in telling me that he would have let it carry on if he could.

It was only because he was forced to make a choice that he fell apart and dithered - either way he knew he was going to lose something - it took him a while to stop acting like a child and make the choice himself rahter than wallow in self pity and allow others to make it for him. He played the victim for a while.
I think that is what your h is doing baffy - he is treating you badly and almost wanting you kick him out so he can be the victim.

ladylush · 11/03/2010 20:26

imho he is just reverting to type. He hasn't learned any new tricks. He hasn't exorcised any demons. In essence he hasn't changed. Change is necessary in order for the relationship to move forward - both of you need to change. Did you have couple counselling?

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 20:39

yes I agree - you will both need to embrace changes in yourselves.

I dont like the fact that i am a less trusting person now - but that is who i am now and rather than feel bad about it i try and accept it - as does h now.

I feel somehow baffy you still feel a lot of guilt for putting yourself first sometimes - you still want to be that giving 'perfect' wife - but you will have changed because of this - and do you know what? It is ok to be selfish sometimes. It takes practice to change your behaviour but you can be firm and get what you want too.

Givenchy · 11/03/2010 20:40

I think that he is a spoilt little child who thinks the grass is always greener on the other side. If you tell him to leave, you will be what he wants again - but he wants something else when he has you!

He needs to grow up and realise that he has a family and responsibilities. If he can't cope with that 'boring' life, then he can leave you to it. You will do a fab job with the kids, even if you have to do it alone.

ladylush · 11/03/2010 21:11

Yes Baffy will do a great job on her own with the boys but ffs why should she.......why isn't her h pulling out all the stops to help things along? I tell you something, the "I don't know why I am like I am" line needs to stop. What he needs to be saying is "ffs man get a grip, fight for your family".
Baffy you come across as a very strong woman who can easily cope without a man around. If you don't need/want him for help around the house (OCD!) tell him where he is needed. Sounds silly, but you really may need to spell it out. When dh and I went for counselling, one of the things that he mentioned was that I never need him for anything. I found this hilarious at the time, given that he had been fucking a work colleague whilst I was looking after his dc. Nevertheless it did make me realise that maybe sometimes I don't let him in. Just some food for thought.

ladylush · 11/03/2010 21:13

er just read that back and it comes across a bit strong.......sorry, have had a couple glasses of wine

HappyWoman · 11/03/2010 22:10

cheers lush.
Yes i think when we see where our faults are (and we all have them after all) and we begin to change for ourselves things really do change.

My would complain that i dont listen to him (most of the time i probably dont ) but sometimes you really do need to take the time to work out if you are saying the right things and that they are being understood the way you want them to be.

No-one likes to be told what to do but sometimes it is the only way change can happen.
I am glad my h told me what i was doing wrong .

You know you dont NEED him - now baffy you need to decide whether you WANT him, And forgive yourself if you dont too. You are not to blame for this please remeber that

TimeForMe · 12/03/2010 16:53

Hi everyone At my daughters for tea again! Wonderful!

Hi baffy. How are you feeling today? you know, I wonder if what is going on with you at the moment is quite simple, all you want is to feel loved and appreciated, desired and wanted, just like any woman would, not just a woman who's husband has had an affair. I think it's easy to blame his affair for any problems that arise but it's quite possible that even without the affair having happened you would be feeling the same way.

I also wonder if you want him to leave, want to live separately because some or even all of the pressure and expectations of the relationship would be lifted. I think you are exhausted by it all. You want a break from all the thinking, all the trying to be the perfect wife. I think how you are feeling says more about you than about H. He is just being a typical bloke pushing his luck, being a man boy and getting away with it! You could sort that, you know how to sort that but at the moment you don't want to, you want to be free of it all because you don't have the energy to deal with it, and why should you? He should be pulling his weight! I don't think though that the fact he isn't means he doesn't love you.

I also wonder if the OCD you talk of is brought about by your relationship and how you are feeling, maybe if you live alone you will feel more relaxed and feel less need to be so 'perfect'.

If we take a minute to look at things from H's point of view, maybe he too is feeling the pressure. Maybe he feels less than perfect, feels as though he isn't living up to your expectations and maybe that is why he is spending more time at the gym and doing his own thing. I don't think he is deliberately doing it to hurt you, I think he is doing it to try and make himself feel better. Men are like that, we work very hard to make them happy, if we sense they are unhappy we work even harder to please them, if men sense we are unhappy they become snappy and defensive and withdraw, they hide until we are smiling again!

I would say the main problem going on here is lack of communication. I think you need to talk to H about how you are feeling, lay your cards on the table! And ask him how he is feeling and if he thinks there is anything that can be done to improve things. Don't talk in code, make sure it's good old plain talking!

I can't help but wonder if the issues you are raising for wanting to split are hiding something a little deeper that is going on with you. You know, you don't need to have a reason to want to live alone, you can still love a person and not want to live with them. You have every right to live independently, be in control of your own life. And if that is really what you want then you go for it! Life is far too short!!! xx

Baffy · 12/03/2010 16:57

Thanks everyone

Annie thanks, I think you?re right about everything somehow now being a little dull and he?s feeling it, and I can see he?s feeling that. It makes me sad, and slightly angry, that he does see our life as dull. The children almost as a chore sometimes. He doesn?t seem to get pleasure out of the small things, how nice it is to cuddle up with your favourite bottle of wine and a good film, the pleasure I get from just seeing the boys faces light up when we play. It?s those things that make all of the hard times worthwhile. For me.

Dior you?re spot on. Thank you. I think you are all right when you say he just needs to grow up. I think that could be it. I?m not sure he even knows himself what he wants out of his life, he didn?t want the excitement with OW because that lifestyle drove him crazy in the end. He became a firey monster and even hated himself at the end. He doesn?t want a settled home life with me because it?s too dull and restrictive and he now misses that excitement.

This is why I truly believe he needs to go away and work out what the hell he does want. Why is he going to fight to keep me and to make me happy if he?s not sure this is what he wants anyway? Until he knows, we would never get anywhere.

LL we did do couple counselling a few times, but he lied his way through the sessions. We paid a fortune for a private counsellor and spent hours talking through everything and exploring how we could move forward and he just failed to mention the small fact that he was rushing off after the sessions to go and sleep with another woman!
We then went to relate and the counsellor pretty much said in the end that he couldn?t help us. He just couldn?t explain why he was how he was, or what was causing it, and the counsellor just hit a brick wall with us I think and said there was no more he could do.

Although that all left a bad taste in my mouth I would try again. But there really is no point. He doesn?t want to discuss what happened or explore the reasons. It hurts him too much and his way of dealing with that is to not keep going over it, and to push it as far to the back of his head as he can. If he can?t even be honest with himself, he has no chance of being honest with me or with a counsellor does he

HW thanks for everything. I WANT him. But only if he wants me too. And at this moment, he just doesn?t.

Like you all say, why isn?t he fighting for this marriage, why isn?t he doing everything he can. Because clearly he doesn?t want it, otherwise he would be. As the days go by and this is all becoming clearer for me I?m even more certain I?m doing the right thing. I would usually have back tracked by now but I know for definite that we really do need some space now to work out what we both actually want. I don't think it will be the same thing. And so I guess that's it for us.

Baffy · 12/03/2010 17:00

x posted TFM

I think you're spot on. It's not about the affair anymore it's just about wanting to be loved and desired. And I agree 100% that I would quite possibly be feeling this way at this time anyway. It's not about OW or the effort he should or shouldn't now be making. It's just plain old wanting him to want me!

TimeForMe · 12/03/2010 18:24

You know, he may not be 'fighting' for the marriage because he doesn't feel the need to. Maybe he feels that the marriage itself is just fine, chugging along nicely, and maybe it is. It may be that it's you who needs the attention, you who needs fighting for, not the marriage.

Men are blind when it comes to this sort of thing. Trust me, he will need everything spelling out to him. Sitting back and expecting him just to know is pointless because he just won't get it. Telling him in a roundabout sort of way won't work either, he will accuse you of nagging, get defensive and go to the gym! Talking to him in bed, just before he is about to go to sleep won't cut it either . Plan a day out, go for a drive or a walk and talk to him then, tell him how you feel, tell him what you would like from him. He may be totally surprised to hear how you are feeling and so relieved that he knows how to fix it. If you want him to that is?

TimeForMe · 12/03/2010 18:30

Another little thing I wonder, do you feel lovable and desireable? Do you feel happy with yourself? Or could you be feeling tired and worn down and unattractive because of it. I just wonder if you are expecting H to give you a lift in that direction, make you feel better about yourself because perhaps you don't feel so good. If so then that is perfectly normal too BUT, the chances are he does love and desire you, finds you irresistable even but because you are feeling so down on yourself he is backing off. It's so mich easier to love a person who loves themself first

Of course I could be wrong, it has been known

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.