FAB & GLAM 10 - Gosh, Do We Really Talk That Much???

[Dumbledior]

Hi, new thread

Lovely to see all the old posters again. Don't go now you are back.

Annie/UC/MHIS - lovely to see you and thanks MHIS for the FB chat.

TFM - glad to hear you and dd are happier now. I'm sure you will be invaluable support to the others in the refuge. Typical of you to have gone through all that yet you are still helping and supporting others.
HW - I know just how you feel, I went through something like that last year (see the post on FB!) I read that now and cringe but at the time the feelings were so strong I could easily have thrown everything up in the air for what would have amounted to a shag. You can enjoy some naughty nice daydreams though - there's no law against that is there
I'd love to do a meet up, especially now the weather is improving and the evenings will be getting lighter. Just let me know when you are free and I'll try and make it.

thnaks ginnny - my head knows that.

I want the meaningless shag - but none of the other feelings of guilt .... ahhh....... just wishful thinking and wanting to know i still can iyswim.

Dh is not complaining though as i think it has made we just want a shag .
I have sort of discussed it with him - but not details - and he is being very lovely about it - which of course makes it easier to resist.

I know exactly what you mean HW but we aren't the sort of people who can enjoy the meaningless sex and not feel the guilt that goes along with it ... we are far too nice

TFM huge hugs - sorry had no idea you were struggling. Glad you are doing well though and that dd is ok too Stay in touch x

HW don't go there! Annie is right (isn't she always ).

An Easter meet up would be good (if in London) I am happy to travel usually but need to be near home cos of dd (still bf).

Blimey girls, I'm glad that I decided to check in here.

TFM - I am so sorry that everything went pear-shaped again. However, I am proud of you for doing something about it and I hope it hurts him. You know that we are here for you.

OSJ/SG - Oi! Are you coming to see your parents at Easter? If so, text me and we can meet. We could even do that London meet for ALL of us.

OK, h is away snowboarding. My diet is a bit off the rails - not too much though. I have lost 46lbs to date and am looking and feeling much better.

Oh, and, HW, STEP AWAY FROM THE LUST! You know that it is not good for you! Well, give your h the benefit of it at least

thankyou ladies - feel so much better now.

I always thought i was too nice to just have mindless sex - but maybe i dont know myself well enough! I think it is because I know all too well the hurt it would cause - and although i dont want to hurt h or my family i also want to know what it is like iyswim.

However i dont think i will 'test' it this time .

I am going to enjoy my lustful feeling and share them with dh instead.

Also see if it is a hormonal patten - only a while ago i felt i could never feel like this again. Could also be that spring feeling - after all the birds and bees are at it now .

But thankyou for being here for me.

TFM great to hear from you

HW listen to Annie!! I guess I always think to bring yourself back to reality, do you want it more than you want to be with dh and keep your family together? If so, go for it! If not, let dh get the benefit of the lustful feelings and raging hormones and just enjoy the fantasy!
There are no rules about what can go on in your head! and I'm sure it's much better than the reality anyway!!

Things are slightly mad for me. After a stupid row over something pretty insignificant last night I totally lost it, probably for the first time I think, and I have told dh I want to break up. For good this time. Fresh start all round.

I'm so so drained with holding everything together and just not getting back what I should be getting in return. I'm feeling like a glorified babysitter, working my arse off for the privilege of holding the household together while he follows his dreams. And I wouldnÂ?t care about any of that if when we got home at night, we could be together, and enjoy being together, and feel like we are the luckiest people in the world to have each other.
But sadly that's just not the case.

That's it harshly in a nutshell. And on so many levels he's been amazing. We should be in this together and I would support him until the day I die I love him so much. But something is missing. It's just not right. The business, football, the gym, friends, it all seems to come first. On the other hand, he'll do anything I ask, and help around the house if I ask, and he's the best dad ever. But that's not enough for me.
How selfish is that.
But I think the time has come where I want to be with someone who wants me more than anything else in the world. And perhaps I am expecting the impossible. But I think I would rather be alone than carry on knowing something is just not right.

It's just 'there'. Whatever it is, it's just there. Eating away at us every minute. And it's killing me.

I fear we have some major talking to do. But do you know what, I'm so sick of it all, I think I just want to be on my own with my gorgeous children.
I've had enough.

Hi Ladies, first of all, thank you all for your FB birthday messages. . We had a lovely time, the sun shone in Tenby and D's family put on a little party for me. Pity his mum gave us foodpoisoning by offering us a sandwich before we set off for home - I had to spend two days in bed last week - it wasn't a pretty sight !

HW, I'm intrigued by your temptation - but glad you resisted! After all you went through with DH, you don't want to blow it now

And yes, TFM my love, good to see you on the thread again. Remember my posting a couple of weeks ago, about New Beginnings for someone in particular? It was YOU I had in mind, TFM, only I didn't want to be too specific too soon !!!! Moving to the refuge has been the best thing you could have done. You sound like a different person now! Remember, now you are a free agent, you can come to our next meetup.

Baffy - I thought there were so many smiles on this thread, and then - I am so sorry to hear your news. Are you sure this feeling won't blow over? You used to say he was the love of your life. Has that feeling really gone? Sending you a big hug before I go back to the grindstone.

Baffy - sometimes you can love someone without liking them very much. Is that how you feel?

oh Baffy, sometimes you can give everything and not get enough back, and really its just not right!
I am so so so much happier on my own with my girls, the only person I give to is me and them and it doesnt hurt all the time for wanting something I am never going to have!
Hugs xxx

Baffy
i can totally understand where you are coming from.
He should not now be following his dreams - it should be your 'shared' dreams now .

I remember feeling like you do - it could just be a phase but if you feel it you should not deny it.

I can truly say i dont have to 'ask' - h just does it now. But then i know i dont rely on him either - i am happy being me again.

I think some of my lust has come from the curiousity of wanting to know if i could ever be like ow and just abandon everything for ME - and it scares me because there is a part of me that really does want that.

H says i wont (and he is probably right) - but thats the 'old' me and i thought he wouldnt either. I dont want to hurt him i just want to know what it feels like to be so selfish iykwim and yet i am sure i would not like it anyway!!

Anyway spring has gone into hiding again and so my mating instincts are waining too .

Baffy - please do call on us when you need us - remember there are no rules and its ok to change you mind - there are far worse things.
Take care and thanks for letting us know anyway

Thanks guys

Dior you could be right, I love him to bits but I'm just not sure I like what I am seeing at the moment.

On the surface he's great. Great fun and a brilliant dad. Just not sure about the 'husband' part.

I do have horrendous PMT and I think this is a big mixture of emotions that has just bubbled to the surface. All because we he works all weekend, literally all weekend, and we'd agreed that once we got the children to bed on Sunday night that we'd watch a dvd.
Half way through he was so unsettled, almost like a child squirming round in his seat! I asked what was up and he said his mate was at the pub and did I mind if he went for last orders.
In the middle of the dvd!

I just said ok, whatever he wants, but he could see I was a bit upset.
Then he said in a bit of a nark, oh forget it it doesn't matter!

At which point I exploded and said it's literally the first time I think ever, that I have shown my upset at him wanting to go out instead of being with me.

To which he replied that he feels like he can't move!

So at that point, I told him to just pack his bags and go and he can have all the freedom he wants

I just don't know how I feel anymore. It all just seems like so much hard work.
I do love him so much and I am genuine when I say how well we get on and how much I love his company. But that is when things are about us. There are so many other issues, his difficulty in having responsibilities, his desire to go out with what seems like anyone rather than spend quiet time in (or out!) with me, OW, the other baby, the nightmare demanding business... the list goes on.
I remember how it felt to be truly happy. And this isn't it.

I have no idea where to go with this. I truly am sick of it myself. I would never talk to anyone in RL as I would fully expect (and deserve!) a slap!
Deep down I do believe that unless he can start to make me believe that he wants to be with me. Then I would be better off alone like you say macd.
HW it should be 'shared' dreams. And it's not.

Tanee thanks for the hug

Thanks for listening to me!

baffy - during counselling we were told that the 'old' relationship is dead and we need to find ourselves a new one.
All the old assumptions had to be ditched and we could discover a whole new set of rules we want to live by.

Dh has been fantastic he has really taken on board that and certainly takes responsibilty for his own actions.

He used to say he was working for US - well that is no good if it is not making me or him that happy.
That is one of the reasons he looked for another job - he knew i was not happy about him working with ow - well who would be? At first he wanted to be the victim saying that he had no choice - we needed the money blah blah...

I suspect i was like you - stuff the money we could be happy in a shack somewhere - what he was doing and he sees it now was to try and get me to 'approve' of his actions and i think your h is doing that too. Blaming you for not being happy that he wants to go out whilst not caring about what you want or what might be best given all that has happened. Once my h saw this flaw in himself he changed. Now dont get me wrong there are still some things that make him less than perfect but i can say that when it comes to working as a team he puts in 100%. There are still some slip-ups and we are working on him being a bit more honest - he says he still feels the need to have privacy and when i know that he is perhaps not telling all i nudge him in the right direction.
eg - the other week he had a lunch (boring but necessary - in his words) He promised he would not overdo the booze! but i knew it was something he would move heaven and earth to get to - he got up early to make sure he was not delayed - and drunk far too much and then (i suspect ) fell asleep on the home train. He wont admit it but i am sure that is it. We did have a fight about it but instead of being defensive he was very appologetic

Do you think he has choosen the 'easy' path - he has a roof and someone to tend to him? YOU.

It does sound as if you are doing all the work to keep the happy home going. with very little reward.

I think you love the idea of who you know he could be - but only he has the power to be that person you need and it sounds as if he is at this time not prepared to work on that.
Your only choice is to make your own life - he will always be in it and maybe someday he can give you what you need - but he risks that it may be too late.

Take care
Sorry about the long post but i hope it helps

Baffy, you do not deserve a slap. Possibly a little shake of the shoulders, but not for the reason you think.

H wants it ALL. Exactly what HW says: he chose the comfortable life with a kind, understanding, earning wife and still isn't putting enough in to deserve it. Obviously I can't tell from a post on the internet, but it's a reasonable guess to say actually he always was like this, but you never noticed before. Now you've had time and space to see your relationship from the outside, as it were, there is less tolerance for being treated as second best; and although you went through fiery hoops to get exactly what you've got in physical terms - H living with you, helping round the house, being a dad to his children - it is not greedy of you to expect a wee bit of emotional investment from the party of the second part. Can't he at least pretend he'd rather watch telly with you for a mere couple of hours than scoot off down the pub? (What's so bloody great about the pub anyway? An evening out with mates I can understand, but grabbing last orders is hardly the social event of the decade and certainly not worth pissing the wife off for. Unless you couldn't care less what she feels.)

I admit I was aghast, initially, on hearing you had taken him back. I couldn't believe he had really turned himself around, because everything you'd said before described a self-centred man who, to put it in the most kindly light, still had a couple of decades of growing up to do. Seems he still does.

Baffy Sorry to hear dh is not measuring up. I thought the very same as annie when I read your post - had an image of a petulant man sticking his bottom lip out because he was expected to spend a bit of time with dw instead of grabbing last orders. And to have the cheek to say "I can't move".........well what a cheek! It will be interesting to see what he does now in the way of a damage limitation exercise. Has he been trying to win favour since?
The postnatal phase plays havoc with your emotions so it may not just be PMT. I am still not talking to my dad and I know that this is a lot to do with childbirth and the emotions it arouses in me. So cut yourself some slack my dear - there is a lot going for you right now.

I offloaded a bit on dh last week. He asked a while ago if he could go to football with work colleagues (an office 5-a-side) and I said yes if it was occasional - not weekly. So somehow he then decided he would go weekly and just announced it rather than discussing it. So I told him I didn't relish being left home with the kids at the worst part of the evening (the witching hour) whilst he had the freedom to do whatever with whoever he liked. Of course he reassured me that he would be doing football (not some woman)and that he would do it instead of his sunday session. Then he said if it bothered me he wouldn't go, since I am more important to him than football. He worded it nicely (in an email - he finds it a bit awkward talking to me about stuff sometimes and prefers email)and I thought about it and said he could go. I have a life outside of home (well sort of - gym twice a week) so I can't expect him not to.
TFM hope you are ok

lush and annie - nicely said.
I think these men do still have that childish steak - that is part of the appeal.

But what i have now learnt is that I AM JUST AS IMPORTANT.

i have every right to not like him going out - not just because of the affair but because i now want a sharing relationship. And although i do still have times of doubt - which i do think are linked to pmt/hormones there is no longer that something 'missing' iyswim.

The other night i said i would rather live like we do now (with him having had an affair - and changed) than go back to pre-affair. That made him and at the same time.

You of all people really do deserve to be loved the way you want and you certainly do not have to 'put up' anymore.

I think he will be grovelling soon - stay strong its the only way to get what you want (well if he is capable of giving you that).

I'm stunned Baffy that after all you've been through he is behaving like this. He does sound like a bit of a spoilt brat - last orders WTF?? . He really should be pulling out all the stops now to show you that you are his number 1 priority.
From your posts it seems that you are the one holding it all together emotionally and financially and he is doing a lot of taking and not much giving.
How do you feel now? Is he full of apologies? (he should be).
I can understand if it is PMT - I could cheerfully never set eyes on DP again when I am premenstrual, but after it has passed I feel a totally different (and a little guilty )

Thank you all so much.

In answer to all of your questions about him now being full of apologiesÂ? far from it!

Not a word was mentioned about it last night. I picked the boys up after work and then got home just after 6.30. Getting them settled to bed, making tea, making tonightÂ?s tea so it can just be warmed up as I know IÂ?ll be even later tonight, washing, packed lunches, ironing, mop the floor from the leak we had yesterday, pack the bags ready for this morningÂ?
And it was 9.30 once IÂ?d done most of that and I was exhausted. Had a little glass of wine and watched tv for half an hour to wind down. Then I finished off and then went to bed.
Neither of us said a word about it all.

Do you know what though, the only thing that upset me about that whole scenario last night, was that heÂ?d finished work at 3pm and done a couple of hours at the gym and got home around 40 mins before me. I donÂ?t even mind starting tea and doing all the other stuff. But the floor was disgusting from work men whoÂ?d been in earlier that day to fix a leak, and I just would have loved it if he would have brushed up and mopped the floor before me and the children came in.
I said as I walked in, oh my word the kitchen is disgustingÂ? and he said I know.

So I decided taking that further, or talking, would be pointless.

Like I say IÂ?m bored of it all.

I think you are right Annie, I do think the root of this is that he still has a lot of growing up to do.
My mum actually said when we split up that she always felt that I supported him and I had the drive and he never seemed to put in the same effort. I disagreed as heÂ?s not lazy or anything like that, heÂ?s always worked hard.
But I fear that youÂ?re both right. Just a bit of emotional investment right now wouldnÂ?t go amiss!

For me, IÂ?ve always seen the money as our money. The only part I resent is that it falls to me to actually sort out everything.

HW when you said Â?Do you think he has chosen the 'easy' path - he has a roof and someone to tend to him? YOU.Â? It made me go cold.
I really donÂ?t want to believe that. But it does look like it could be true. If I didnÂ?t pay the bills and organise everything then it wouldnÂ?t happen. If I didnÂ?t get shopping we would never get any. If I didnÂ?t clean the house then it wouldnÂ?t get cleaned. If I didnÂ?t organise babysitters we would literally never do anything as a couple.

I think this is where my explosion came from. I feel like I do everything. And I donÂ?t care as long as the only thing I get in return is his love. And IÂ?m not sure I even get that anymore.

He is very good at prioritising himself. A skill I do need to learn!
If he doesnÂ?t go to the gym he gets all moody and fed up so I end up begging him to go! I actually didnÂ?t find the time to wee last night and was wondering at 8pm why I was in agony until I remembered that IÂ?d needed to go since finishing work!!

If we werenÂ?t together he wouldnÂ?t be able to support himself. ThatÂ?s clear. So is he just there because itÂ?s a good option? And because he wants to be close to his children?
For example Saturday night he was in a really bad mood and I tried hard to talk it all through and tell him how things will work out, offered a massage (which was declined by the way ) and he just said in return Â?just ignore meÂ?.
The only time he actually smiled and started to come round was when ds was in the room.

I think weÂ?re both in this for totally different reasons and thatÂ?s the root of the problem. IÂ?ve no doubt he loves me. But perhaps more as a friend and the mother of his children than a Â?wifeÂ?.
That honeymoon period we had 2 years ago when we got back together and were having great times and couldnÂ?t keep our hands off each otherÂ? seems like a distant memory now.

Have to agree LL Â? I was astounded at his comment that Â?he canÂ?t moveÂ?. That is so far from the truth it really is.

Obviously youÂ?re only getting my side of this and I know IÂ?m not perfect by any means.

It�s just that I don�t feel that he �gets it�. For example, last week we got a letter from a bailiff over a parking ticket he knew nothing about (the court had been sending the information to his old address). He called the bailiff and they said nothing they can do, called the court, found out their error in loctaing his address, then said how come the bailiff�s can find his address but the court can�t! And they said that they have their �own ways� of finding addresses. And basically, if he didn�t pay immediately (£30 fine that�s now £110 as he�s never responded or even seen the letters!) then the bailiffs will be round to take his car or whatever property they see fit to pay the balance.
At that stage I flipped out and said he really needs to sort it because I am NOT dealing with a bailiff with the children in the house. Ds would be scared to death.
His response Â? if they come round then IÂ?ll just knock them out!!

Aside from the fact that he wouldnÂ?t knock out a fly! I said thatÂ?s all well and good, but he works 7 days and week and the likelihood is that it will actually just be me and the children in alone when they turn up.
And he just couldnÂ?t see it. Just totally consumed in his own anger and resentment at now having to chase all of this up when technically, it actually wasnÂ?t his fault as he had no idea.

And yes, thatÂ?s all stressful and really shitty. But it affects me too.
I feel like screaming like a child Â?what about meÂ??!!

HW thanks for the long post your advice is great. I think the root of the problem is that he doesnÂ?t want to find that new relationship. He doesnÂ?t want to give it the time and effort he needs to. He wants it all on a plate.
I told him on Sunday that actually, if he wanted to be with me then he would bloody well make sure he did everything in his power to keep it that way. After all, despite the immense difficulties when trying to see OW in secret, he wanted it enough that he bloody well managed that!

I donÂ?t believe his excuse that heÂ?s sorry heÂ?s emotionally distant but he doesnÂ?t know why.

Do you agree that we always know why? I believe deep down there is always a reason. He canÂ?t blame external factors. I am under more pressure now than IÂ?ve ever been in my life. But I still find the time and strength to be emotionally close to the people that I love.

IÂ?m sorry. I think IÂ?m just letting everything out in a safe place.
Obviously not mentioning any of the good stuff he does. The way he is with the children. The way he really would do anything for me if I ask.
I do wonder whether IÂ?m just expecting too much or whether I do need to accept IÂ?m flogging a dead horse

I think I need TFMÂ?s advice too. How to withdraw and focus on myself.
I just donÂ?t know what to do anymore.

TFM how are you???

sorry about the strange commas etc - stupid computer!
(stupid me!)

Gonna be a bit harsh here, apologies in advance, and again I realise I am seeing a small snippet of your home life and making vast assumptions, but I can only comment on how it seems to me and then you can think about whether it's anywhere near reasonable or not, and ignore or take on board as applicable.

"he really would do anything for me if I ask"

So why, instead of doing a longer day at work, ALL the childcare and cleaning up, didn't you ask? He said he knew the floor was disgusting, you didn't say "Could you clean it please?" On the other hand, when you asked him to sit at home watching a film with you he just couldn't do it - well he would have if you ordered him, but made it quite clear it was under duress; and when you asked him to deal with his own bailiff problem in a sensible way he had umpteen excuses why he couldn't do that either.

So, sorry, hon, either it just isn't true that he would do anything for you, or you are letting him take the mick and then complaining about it. You are doing everything, because you can, and he is letting you, because HE can. You didn't even have time to take a wee; he spent two hours in the gym. Indeed, you told him to. Maybe he shouldn't want to take advantage, but what incentive is there for him to grow up?

"I?ve no doubt he loves me. But perhaps more as a friend and the mother of his children than a wife?. " Or maybe more as a mother (to him, not the DCs)?

Did someone call?

Big hug Baffy!! I am so sorry you are having such a hard time. There's place at the refuge if you fancy a break!

To be blunt and to save a bit of time, I think your H is taking the piss! He is acting like a spoilt little boy BUT, in all fairness if you are going to allow him to behave like this then he will.

Part of me wonders if you are so pleased to have him back that he has allowed to be able to get away with more than he should. There definitley seems to be a lack of boundaries which in turn is leading to a huge lack of respect for you. I think he is pushing his luck, I think he feels safe to do so because you have proved how much you love him by tolerating everything he has done to you and taking him back. I think he thinks he can get away with anything because you will never leave him.

I asked P on Sunday how much he tought I would take before I snapped. At the time of me leaving he hadn't spoke one single word to me for 16 days. That on top of everything else led to me almost having a nervous breakdown, if it weren't for the wonderful people at the refuge I honestly do not know what would have happened. His reply was that he didn't think I would ever leave, he thought I loved him too much. That knocked me for six. So there was me questioning his love for me, thinking he couldn't possibly love me or he wouldn't be treating me this way and there was him thinking he could treat me how the hell he liked because no matter what he did I loved him!!

I think there may be a bit of that going on with your H too Baffy. I think you need to be very careful, take a long hard look at your relationship and ask if you get what you would like from it. I have had counselling this morning and part of the session was to write a list of all the things I thought equalled love in a relationship, i.e respect, consideration, equality. I listed about 15 things and then the counsellor asked me how many of them I got in my relationship. The answer was a big fat zero!! So, if you put your hand on your heart, be truly honest with yourself, what do you get from your relationship with H?

I think you are an amazingly strong woman. I think your H was the luckiest man on earth when you took him back. You took back a totally different man to the one who left you, the man you took back had even more baggage than he had when he left, even more problems. But you loved him enough to take all that on with him. I feel though, he mainpulated you then and he is manipulating you now. By saying he feels he can't move he is attempting to make you feel guilty and make you give him the freedom he seems to want. He wants his cake and he wants to eat it. He is a family man but he doesn't want the responsibility, I am not surprised you are angry at him and want out!!

The thing is though, if you don't really mean it when you tell him you want him to leave then it's best not to say it unless you are prepared to see it through as he will get used to the empty threats too and will have no reason to change. If you want him to change then you have to change the way you react and respond. Stop doing things for him. Stop filling the gaps. If he doesn't do the shopping then he doesn't eat! You buy just enough for you and the boys. If he doesn't clean up after himself then you don't do it, leave his washing, leave his mess or just put it in a bin bag. Command respect from him. Don't nag him,just tell him the once what you want him to do and leave it at that, if he doesn't do it then tough! He suffers! You might not find it easy to do at first but hey, what's the alternative? If yo don't like how things are going then you have to change them. When nothing at all you are doing is working then you do what I do and leave!

Phew! Didn't take me long to get my foot in the door again did it!

All is still well with me and DD. She is just wonderful!! And is going from strength to strength. I hadn't realised how much living with him had affected her. I thought I had done a damned good job of protecting her. It seems though that she had taken on the responsibility of caring for me too, bless her. Now though she is enjoying being a little girl again, free from worrying about her mummy. It's lovely!!!

I hope everyone else is doing ok. I've only managed to skim read really but I will have a proper catch up soon. Thank you all for your love and good wishes, it really does mean a lot

Lots of love xxx

Oops cross post Annie and you said it in a lot shorter post than I did!

Thank goodness you agree with me, TFM - it means I was right!

It is such a huge shame that all your wisdom and sensitivity were wasted on a man who couldn't appreciate, only exploit them. Delighted to hear that your little girl is so happy now

Oh, it is SO GOOD to have TFM back on this thread. Between you and Annie, you can sort us all out.

Baffy, I agree with all they've said. You have every right to be angry and you were probably well overdue for an explosion. He's had it far too easy both before the OW fiasco, and since DS2 came along. You are mothering all three of them and he is again not coping with being an adult. Look after yourself and the boys, and make it clear that he has to pull his weight in the house. Leave his laundry and his washing up, shop and cook just for you and the boys, do stuff with them and see what effect that has. I did this with DP in the run up to our Christmas meltdown. His laundry bag overflowed, his empties filled the kitchen, he lived on wine and cheese. But it had an effect. He now does his own laundry, takes his own empties to the bottle bank, and actually takes a turn at cooking meals. And if he so much as hints at going to the pub in the middle of an evening in - well, he wouldn't even dare suggest it !

Try some Tough Love on your adult adolescent. 'Can't move' indeed . Ooh!!!!

Hi to everyone else. Off home now to see if DP went to his job interview this afternoon. He went into a panic of no confidence last night, and was convinced he'd flunk it. Wouldn't be surprised if he walked out, disappeared, hyperventilated or what. Do these men ever get a grip!?