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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narsissistic personality disorder

1001 replies

therealme · 19/07/2009 02:25

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 03/03/2010 19:28

He seems to me to have a paranoia thing going on there, Saddest, which may be related to the N view that there's got to be one person 'on top' with the other necessarily underneath. Having the notion that if you're on top then he must be on the bottom is an indication of N thinking they cannot conceive of a win-win situation, of everybody being happy. If you're happy and doing well, then a N probably thinks you must be gloating about it, that part of your enjoyment of life must come from knowing he's not enjoying life they assume others feel the same way they do and do a huge amount of projection.

Situations can arise where N tendencies emerge, I believe. Some are fine until children become toddlers and learn to say No. Some are fine until their parents get ill or until they lose a job or get a bad review. Things can happen that challenge their views of themselves as being top dog. They live under a lot of stress anyway, because they have to invest a lot of mental and emotional energy into maintaining their position. There's a lot of suspicion and fear deep in their innermost depths.

saddest · 03/03/2010 20:05

You are right mathanxiety.

I hope that these posts that I am making are as helpful to someone else as others have been for me....really I do.

His whole family are like coiled springs. Extreme left wing politics, unions etc. A deep mistrust of health workers, the police etc etc. To the point where it becomes funny.

Today he has been here...same old same old.

My friend laughed at how I was able to keep using my "special powers" to charm psychiatrists, whilst drinking two LITRES of wine every day. she is very impressed.

He got really pissed off at being laughed at....which I suppose is fair enough......

Tonight, he is racked with pain....coming down with something...and has nowhere to go. He ended up going to his "friend".

I said that he has a beautiful home right here....but has to accept that I am not mad.....blah blah blah.......ad nauseum. He can't do that.

BUT he has cut me my own key to the studio...ODD?

mathanxiety · 03/03/2010 20:43

Funny enough, my ex's family are all very right wing nut jobs, and my exFIL in particular, although a doctor, is deeply suspicious of specialties other than his own, calls psychiatrists quacks and dentists charlatans, same with pediatricians and any other doctor who asks you to go for regular check-ups. Hate 'big government'. The police can do no wrong in their eyes. Anti-war protests drive them apoplectic. The coiled springs phrase is very apt.

Getting so angry at a joke at his expense and being so suspicious of you that he won't even sleep there if he's sick is more than just N behaviour though, imo. His thought process sounds seriously skewed.

saddest · 03/03/2010 20:54

My first ever inkling that something was wrong was listening to Robin Skynner.

His explanation of the paranoia of extreme politics was illuminating. Left becomes right etc. It's just extreme, it's just paranoid.

It's a sign of something not entirely healthy.

mathanxiety · 03/03/2010 21:00

I read a great book by Robin Skynner and John Cleese (of all people) called 'Families and How To Survive Them' -- it's an old book, bot a really good one, imo.

saddest · 03/03/2010 21:15

It was listening to the serialisation of that very book on radio4 one saturday morning that made me realise that maybe....just maybe, it wasn't me.

That was twenty years ago and I'm still struggling with the same person...my "mother" fucking up my life.

It is since she has been back in my life that it's all gone wrong again.

Strange that one of the last sensible conversations I have had with H was him saying that it seemed that every single relationship she has had anything to do with has failed.

He's right. Including ours right now.

autumnlight · 03/03/2010 21:45

Even though when I got married to him I had never heard of NPD (and didn't for another 9 years), I have not had a single day when I felt ok about things with him.

Another strange thing that has occurred to me is that I always felt, even in the early days, that the relationship was 'too' polite. I do not know how else to describe a feeling I had. I can only translate this now into a feeling that things were never really 'real'. I have never been truly relaxed in his company. Years ago, there did used to be the 'putting on a show' at home when eg entertaining people, and I used to think I was going mad years ago as he would completely change at these times and an image of 'we' would be acted out. Sentences like 'we usually do this or we usually do that' would be used. There was no real 'we' in reality but I am sure alot of people were taken in by it.

therealme · 03/03/2010 22:18

Maths I found your comments about N's needing to be 'top dog' interesting and relevent.
My ex became noticably more N-like after the birth of dc 2 six years ago. Prior to that he had been a stay at home dad and in his element. After dc 2 was born I took a career break due to depression and he returned to work.
Things dramatically worsened from this point. He refused to support me financially and did not lift a finger or contribute to the running of the house or caring for the dc. It was also around this time that the infamous ringing from the bedroom to order tea started, along with the many demands and increased criticisms.

I think he felt he lost control over his domain - the home - and was therefore no longer top dog. Also, why the hell should I be happy in being able to stay at home when he couldn't? He became extremely resentful. Still is.

I like the coiled spring analogy too. It describes my ex in-laws perfectly. You could cut the tension with a knife in their house. Oh, and just to add saddest, my ex is costantly reading self help books and the biographies of powerful men.

OP posts:
ItsGraceAgain · 03/03/2010 22:32

This is a bit of a ramble.

My dad used to be massively, passionately left wing. Some time in his late forties, he switched: became just as fiercely right-wing. I realise mum doesn't have any actual opinions. She only has beliefs - articles of faith - all of which she's been given by someone else, with the exception of her weird diet theories. She researches diet theories nonstop.

I feel more sorry for Dad than for Mum, although he abused her for all their 45 years together. There's something very childlike about Mum; her self-delusion is so powerful that only a few things get through. Dad was a dangerous arsehole but he was also a dreadfully tortured soul. They went travelling when they were 60. They fell victim to a shocking roadside robbery - one of those fake emergencies. My parents were punished most harshly for doing the right thing by a stranger. It shattered his confidence for ever. His death may well have been by choice. Poor old mad guy

I still find it incredibly hard to get a perspective on all this. Every one of my boyfriends was an abuser of one kind or another - at least, the ones I didn't dump. Each of them wante to marry me. I realised this didn't mean I was wonderful (more amenable) but never clicked that it was about how well-adapted I am to the abuse symbiosis. I don't know if my ten years of therapy have fixed that yet - I'm afraid to try!

My best friends, too, were all users. One of them stole my life, "Single White Female" stylee. Now I've dropped them - plus most of my other friends, a necessity since they are now close pals with SWF ex-friend - there are only a couple left.

It's hard to know what to make of this. I rarely summarise the thing so bluntly, because it frightens me. It makes me look like Mrs Victim. And ... I don't know if I have a clinical PD myself!! My life has been strange: interesting, but strange. Many of my behaviours are abnormal. But I don't know if that means I am abnormal, or it's a symptom of having spent my life inside a web of antisocial/narcissistic personalities. My therapist is no good for this stuff: she's trying to get me out of my depression, but isn't interested in my 'process'. You can almost see her sneer when I mention it.

I wish I knew ... whether or not I am crazy.

BaggyAgy · 03/03/2010 22:49

Hi, Grace you sound amazingly sane( and clever). Of course like me you have learned to survive by using some of the tools of the abuser (manipulation in my case) but you re not at all crazy. You certainly have empathy, you have been so kind and helpful to me and have certainly empathised with me. You do sound angry at times. Thank God for anger. It shows you don't accept what happened to you, and that you can feel an emotion and are alive. Its a step on the road to recovery isn't it? We all ask ourselves "Am I mad?" because we lived with madness and regarded it as the norm, because it was our norm. If you are asking, chances are you are not mad. I think you sound lovely. Keep posting. Good luck with beating the depression. Thanks to you and NNT I have a new and secret e-mail address that no one save me, can access. Great.

ItsGraceAgain · 03/03/2010 23:11

Oh, thank you so much Aggy!

I'm delighted about your new email - well done you! Your first step towards your very own private life (appropriate that it should be an electronic one: a new life for a new age ... )

I really empathise with your 'politeness', Autumn. I never felt comfortable touching XH#2 - you know, those little touches you normally do when talking with someone. I'm almost overly touchy-feely as a rule; it was very odd how stiff & nervous I felt around Jon. I think a big part of the reason why he wanted me was in hope that some of my ease around people would rub off on him. It worked the other way, though. I became less & less relaxed. It was such a shock when I saw him like that with his sister!

I find it utterly terrifying that I don't really know who I am. I'm 55 tomorrow, for god's sake, and two weeks off my 10-year therapy anniversary! Jon and Peter, in tandem, did destroy me. But ... I was destroy-able. The underlying damage, conditioning, call it whatever (or underlying disorder - I'm clinging to your words, Aggy, but am still unsure) was already there.

I'm incredibly grateful for this thread. I think most of the people in it will understand what I'm trying to describe.

BaggyAgy · 03/03/2010 23:42

Happy Birthday for tomorrow Grace. I wish I could bake you a cake.

ItsGraceAgain · 04/03/2010 00:28

Thanks, BA. Not to worry, I've invented the 15-minute stove-top chocolate cake! I suspect your cakes are in an entirely higher league - some other birthday, perhaps. Meanwhile, I have a plateful of 15-minute chocolate sponge, my second bottle of Chardonnay and am all snuggled up watching Cabaret on TV.

Not too bad!
Take care of yourself, too

ItsGraceAgain · 04/03/2010 03:01

I'm spamming this thread! Sorry (allowed as my birthday treat )

Mum rang me to talk about her horoscope. My mother believes in horoscopes and the Will Of God. She absolutely does make things happen in her life - but perceives them all as happening "to" her. Others see her as go-getting, even overbearing and manipulative. She sees herself as a creature of Fate.

My Dad ridiculed Fate, God and horoscopes. His mother (my Nice Granny) was a full-blooded gypsy, believed in second sight and spells. Dad chose brutal facts - the more brutal, the more he liked them. The word cynic derives from a far more even-handed view than his. He was a misanthrope with cynical knobs on. Given the time he was born, I imagine that the child of a Gypsy - conceived out of wedlock to boot - would have been less than welcomed to the world.

There was a strange incident, when he turned up unannounced at my flat in Stepney. He asked me to drive him around (Dad hated to be a passenger), telling me where to turn. All the time, he gave me stories of shocking prejudice against him, as a child, and against Granny and his aunties. Gran was born in Stepney and had sisters there. But nobody heard of the sisters, and Dad never mentioned any childhood experiences in London.

I've since told my mother & sibs about that day; their reaction, each time, is ... pure blankness. Although he was, in reality, a smallish man with a wall eye, his control created a giant presence in all of our minds. I can only suppose the idea of a secret & ashamed childhood: the gypsy's bastard; sits so badly with my family's iconic perception of him that they simply can't compute the connection. We know he was a bit nutty(!) - was this another of his weird tricks? I don't think so. There was no advantage to him, I'd been out of his circle for ages. Mum chose not to remember what I told her about that day. My sister, though - his golden child - not only accepted it, but filled in a few details about the aunties.

I'm writing this primarily for my own benefit, but also for those who find themselves in "reality shift" wrt their disordered partners. When you find out stuff you didn't know - and that, if you were a normal (healthy) couple, you would have known - your instinct is to dismiss it. My mother can get away with that because he's dead. But even she had the instinct that it was true. This means she instinctively accepted the truth of a huge part of her husband's life, which she'd never known about and which he'd deliberately hidden from her. Had I told her about it while he was alive, it would have added extra weight to the burden of double, conflicting beliefs that she lives with daily.

He asked me not to tell her, for pretty much the same reason. I said: "I've heard what you ask and understand your reasons. I'll choose what to tell her, and when." He acknowledged me: "I know you'll make your own choice but please be considerate to your mother's feelings." I wish I could say I left it there, but I was very cross about his claim to concern for her feelings! I ranted a bit, but then realised we were in a very odd situation - and I was driving round the East End, following 50-year-old directions. So I shut up.

The above is a story about the reality shift that happens all the time, with such people. (I think my dad was more sociopath/ASPD than NPD, but it's mainly a difference of internal pain for the sufferer afaik.) There is no point in trying to get to "the truth" or even "a" truth. The poor buggers don't even know themselves, where's the sense in looking for something that barely exists and, if found, must be denied?

In case you were wondering, no living relative of my father denied my story. I was met mostly by blankness ... you know, the normal reaction to incomprehensible information. I told it again after he died, and this time my sister filled in some info as I've described. I'll never know why he chose me for his honesty tour - Mum still wonders, but I think it's simply that I was living in Stepney and it was convenient for him at a time when he felt like doing it.
Biscuit.

therealme · 04/03/2010 07:11

Grace I'm about to wake the kids to start the school rush. But I just wanted to say Happy Birthday.

You are a very insightful and interesting person. I wish I could take you out on a Dublin pub crawl tonight. We could talk animatedly about our lives, get slowly plastered and end up hugging each other in an 'I love you' drunken fashion before ending up in the chipper.....

Bet you never did that with your ex, did you? Me neither

OP posts:
Unlikelyamazonian · 04/03/2010 08:27

Can I come on the dublin pub crawl? Grace you should write a book as you write so flawlessly and it's fascinating. Happy Birthday!!

wrt the 'shifting reality' and the shocking truths that sometimes crop up, I understand totally...

My mother has always been lauded as a saint - an image which we as children somehow accepted and I was definitely rather in awe of her: she is worshipped by my father, convent-school educated, very beautiful (in her 80s now), and would tell me stories about her teenage years which were quite dreamlike.

Yet when I had a crisis in my late twenties, during a conversation with her and my father it came out that she had had three abortions - none of which she had been affected by one iota she said (and which I am sure is true as she has no real feelings) and that when they were on a boat together with a male friend of theirs, he raped her and dad didn't understand what they were doing and didn't intervene

This conversation totally shifted the reality of my view of her and of their marriage. I mean it was so brutally different from the saintly facade it didn't make any sense to me. The boat details were graphic for about 30 seconds and I was dumbstruck.

The details of that conversation were never repeated and they have faded a bit now and I never felt able to ask them to explain what happened on that boat, ever again (I didn't really understand and it was so shocking), as somehow the 'bubble' around them sealed up again and that afternoon of telling the truth was brushed away and put right back in its box. They went straight back to being the saint and the worshipper.

My mother has the lashing tongue of a fish-wife now that I have cut loose from the family NPD 'cult' and I have no relationship with her and barely any communication with my father.

Shifting reality is so true. Also like many of us on here, I asked my mother a few times during my 20s and 30s, whether there was a history of madness in our family because I felt as though I was going mad but couldn't understand what was happening.

Amazing thread.

Just weird. Weird.

Gettingagrip · 04/03/2010 09:21

Grace and math ..I had stepped away from mumsnet, but your posts have made me return.

Your lives sounds just like mine. My mother has actually told me that she 'can't switch her brain off', so always that coiled spring thing....never relaxing...she always has to do what she thinks normal people do in any given situation, not what she would like to do, or just do nothing and relax and enjoy the moment. So of course there is always that stress and panic emanating from her. And of course as her cognitive abilities are buggered, she gets the whole thing completely wrong, gets the total wrong end of the stick, and just ends up looking like an idiot. Which I think she knows, but she has no idea what to do about it.

When you pull her up on her ridiculous pontifications she dissolves into tears (toddler) or gets nasty. Now I am an adult I more often get the tears, when I was small I got the nasty...when I saw situations and statements she made which were just plain wrong when I was a child, and questioned her, or objected, she would do the nasty.

She dare not do that so much now I have had the lightbulb moment as to what is wrong with her as I think she knows something has shifted.

I used to wish that I just had normal parents, even when i was very small. I knew even then that there was something very wrong but of course had no idea what it was.

My father of course changed from the private, vicious, bullying, violent nasty piece of work into the charming puplic persona in any public or extended family occasion.

And it's interesting about friends as I have just cut off many friends that I had as I realised they were just using me for my training as a narc's assistant.

And don't get me started on men, and my so-called relationships.

I am now in group therapy. Early days, but I will stick with it as I so want to be healed from all this shit.

autumnlight · 04/03/2010 09:46

Has anyone else come across this. My H (I am still with him) has generally always told me he doesn't love me and that I should just 'get over it'. At the start of our marriage (it has always been difficult with him - abuse/npd/alcoholism (his)) he would leave me love letters before he went to work in the kitchen. It then turned out at the same time he was behind my back telling his best friend he didn't love me and didn't want to be with me and only had sex with me every 6 weeks to 'keep me sweet'. He has never understood why this has hurt me and seems to think it is acceptable to live like this.

Has anyone else come across this kind of thing where you are not expected to have feelings in life?

autumnlight · 04/03/2010 09:52

I have alot of resentment (have been very angry) towards my H.

I have found someone with NPD to be hypocritical, contradictory, deceitful, manipulative, controlling, neglectful, cruel, disloyal, etc etc etc

And those are just the good qualities.

Gettingagrip · 04/03/2010 10:04

autumn.....throughout the 23 years I was with my ex-HN i stamped on my feelings on a daily basis so as not to show any at all. Mind you, I was an expert at this as that was the way I found to survive my childhood. Don't show anything at all, as it will all come back to hurt you in the future. Of course, not showing it turns into not feeling it.

Since I left ( 3 years ago now) my children and I have all realised that we can show our emotions and feelings . Even the dogs are different. Much happier.

I used to describe it to myself as having ice in my heart. Now this has warmed up and melted.

Ironically, my exFIL asked me if I had no feelings after I had left his son....would have been quite funny if it had not been so tragic. My cruel and nasty PDed PIL were part of the reason I left.

I think the thing is that I now know that what I think and feel is just as important as what my exH and his family think and feel. I am just as important as they are....I was always the third class citizen with no rights....but they were happy to take the money I earned, and they were also happy to take the son I produced and try to turn him against me. My daughter of course had no value to them.

autumnlight · 04/03/2010 10:12

Oviously, my H has not been 'consistent' with the 'love' scenario. Sometimes he has apparently loved me. The whole 'does he/does'nt he love me' used to consume me in the past, and the keeping me in limbo/the unpredictability of him was another useful form of control, I think.

Now, I am really trying to change my thinking to 'What do I think' not forever trying to work out what he is thinking (although it is hard) but I am trying to separate myself from him more and more mentally.

Happy Birthday, Grace. I hope you have a nice day.

NicknameTaken · 04/03/2010 10:28

Yay to Baggy for a new email address!

Happy birthday Grace, and sign me up for the Dublin pub-crawl!

I have to tell you about yesterday's email from my exH, because surely it must win some "It's all about me" award.

Context: he has elderly relatives living in a poor country. When we were together (and he had access to my salary), at his insistence we send them a substantial sum every month. This was non-negotiable as far as he was concerned and he got very aggressive any time I said it was too much (we were struggling ourselves). Since we split, he hasn't sent them anything. I've met them and I know that they are genuinely poor, so I offered to send them something if he would put in a matching sum. Some highlights of his reply:

"I think what you are saying is right we should be able to help them as they had no one... But, my heart has broken so irrecoverably that I lost all interest in valuing them as my family since the time [DD] is detached from me. I am not saying they have to be punished or suffer as a result of my bad situation in here, but my expreince is now so differnt that no one even matter for me except [DD], even my beloved grandmother! .... In some ways, I regret for being caring and thoughtful for them for the last many years of my life... I... I really regeret for not being a differnt person than I was, I should have been thinking about myself alone, but too late now. .... I appreciate your effort of visiting them ... but the experience is quite different for me now, not good feeling at all and I hope it feels the same for them too. Instead of watching that video and sharing laugher (as they said) they will cry and stress now for the rest of their life till they end up in grave. But it was not my choice for them to experience this and there is nothing I contributed for this.
... please do not worry I don?t think they will suffer for so long, as some of them are getting too old and die soon and the younger three girls will look for their future in different direction sooner than later (than waiting for our support from here). there is nothing I can do for them when I am not for myself as well."

My jaw just dropped when I saw that he thinks the problem is that he hasn't been selfish enough in his life. He sits there in front of his big-screen TV wearing his fancy shoes while they struggle to get enough to eat and find school fees for children, and he feels sorry for himself!

autumnlight · 04/03/2010 10:28

BA - My H recently has been saying to me 'You are acting weird'. Hopefully, this is because there is a change in me.

I know it would be an easier process on my own.

Gettingagrip · 04/03/2010 10:31

Well in my experience of Ns, which has been rather too much , they don't feel anything actually. They say things that they THINK are what 'normal people' say, and they ACT as they think they should on any given situation. They pick up the clues from others, but as their cognitive abilities are poor and underdeveloped (think 2 year old) they get things very wrong.

They know that at the begining of a 'relationship' they should say things like 'I love you', but they have no idea what that really means. Of course, once you are married or have been together a long time, they cease to be bothered about your feelings, as you are not a person in your own right, you are just an extension of them, and so they assume your world-view is theirs.

Their only preoccupation is keeping their false -self together, and not letting their real -self get into their conciousness. THey cannot allow this as then they would have to accept the truth about themselves. This is not possible for an N. They are always right, it's their way or the highway.

In a long relationship, they probably realise that husbands should do and say certain things to keep their spouses sweet. They do have odd flashes of reality, but these are damped down so as not to intrude on the false-self. But as you, their spouse, is just supply to them, they don't care at all about what they are doing to you. You are not a person!

Now that I am free,(not of my mother)of my Ns, on the whole, I spend my time with people who say what they mean. They don't gaslight, they don't get the wrong end of the stick and go into a massive strop (my sibling), they don't have to get one over on me all the time (my ex-H), and they don't treat me like I am a weird incomer with no right to have any opinion of my own (my ILs).

Reading some of these posts, particularly the ones from people who are still in these 'relationships', I realise just how far I have come, and how good I feel now. It shows me how much stress I was under.

I don't know how I survived!

BaggyAgy · 04/03/2010 10:31

Hi, Count me in on the Dublin pub crawl and a slice of your chocolate cake. (by the way my cake turned out too dry and hard, it was almost useable as a weapon, I ended up buying one, so don't put yourself down by assuming you bake less well than me`!)

The sun in shining here so I am going to cheer myself up by some savage pruning. I will have a lovely garden in the Spring for ME. When did I last do anything for ME. Apart from find this really helpful thread. Do something for YOU Grace. It's your birthday ENJOY.

By way of personal history, and in case it helps anyone, when we first met my Husband virtually stalked me and I was the most beautiful love of his life. Wherever I went he was there with little gifts for me and sooo interested in everything I did. He was witty, charming very very attentive. Mind you, all the time he was in the process of divorce and cohabiting with a woman not his wife. When we did start a relationship he used to have very long telephone conversations every evening with different women. "Work issues Darling". He would never express an opinion. He clearly didn't know who he was and what he liked. He told me that in his first marriage he had adapted to the image he believed his wife wanted, pipe smoking country gentleman , pillar of the church, Mason, check shirts, civil defense. He shed all this on leaving her. He destroyed the clothes and that persona in front of me. He was angry because he believed she had expected him to be this person, but he didn't know who he was. I kept telling him to "be himself". For months he would express no opinions, then suddenly he said "no more pretense" and he changed. But to an extent he had adapted to what he imagined I wanted him to be. He drank the drinks I drank in the way I did, played the same music and adopted my hobbies. He appeared resentful of having been the man he thought his wife wanted. What he wanted, I suspect, was approval, admiration and to hook her, and then me, in. He made me keep our relationship secret, just as he had kept his cohabitation secret. I suspect now that it was so that he would appear single and available. He denied to his Wife that he had had an affair or had cohabited. He tried to blame her for the failure of the marriage. They eventually divorced on 2 years separation. She still hasn't heard from him that he had affairs during their marriage. I should have known that he would repeat his pattern and cheat on me and lie about it. Older and wiser now! I just thought I'd post this in the hope that someone will comment, and/or have been through similar, or can be warned by it.

Grace how is the birthday going?

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