Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

Oh but you do. You do need to ask questions. Thousands of them. Your brain doesn't sleep because it has been traumatised and saying 'ask no more questions' is like saying to a soldier who has witnessed dead babies in Bosnia 'It's just war. Get over it. Move on. Fancy a cake at the Garden Centre in Sonning'.

I mean, life has changed irretrievably for us and no garden centre will do until we have made peace with ourselves and our disarranged heads and hearts.

Don't expect you to understand that. Not criticising, just trying to explain.

It is therapy of a sort talking to people who have been through this shit. There are many, many questions I needed answering desperately.

I still don't have all answers and never will have.

If your husband and the father of your small baby left to fuck underage prostitutes abroad without so much as a backward glance, then made lots of stories up about you, and you don't even know where he lives to divorce him, and you are struggling financially, and had your baby removed from you for three days because you were so fucked, would you appreciate me saying to you 'you know the answers. Move on'.

I am sorry to sound a bit cross but unless you have real definite first-hand experience of these men and how mad they are and how they make lovely sane people go sad and mad, then I would back off a little.

I so badly needed to ask questions...because I was doing a kind of crash course in personality disorders and serious psychotherapy while all the time trying to feed my baby and make sense of why I married the shit. I was trying to survive, disentangle myself from social services, go shopping, get legal advice, fight with the bank over the massive overdraft he left me with (he raided our joint account to the tune of ten grand on an overdraft, AND took our ten thousand savings too. He left me penniless) and god knows what else.

These people are not normal and cause extreme mental chaos. Please do not use the usual platitudes, because they just do not apply.

My Husband is fucking his new foreign woman abroad, living in a big posh house, riding a motorbike, grooming one of his little students at the college he now teaches at, has no idea his brother has just died and is being gainfully employed by a german publishing company because he has told them the old sob story: 'I was really depressed and doing everything at home. My wife was mad, my ex was a bitch, so I thought sod the lot of them.'

Only the last line is true - and true to form: actually, he had been deceiving his secondary school for an entire year and is about to be struck off by the general teaching council. Not that he will give a toss. Because he has totally reinvented himself, his past, his future where he is - this is mad bad and dangerous and hard to fathom for me (and others who go through it.)

He has gone to a third world country where he can just be another gary glitter type fuck-up.

That is what NPDers do - 'sod the lot of em' - because it is not about the 'wife' (she's not mad - he is projecting again) or the 'children' (hangers on and no use to them - he is projecting again).

These dangerous wankers are just trouble and we victims must educate each other.

Anyone who has been put through the mill by these jokers and their crap families will know that we are lucky to still be standing.

Mmm..Move on. Let me tell you, we ARE moving on...by sharing our knowledge and our discoveries and by understanding what we have been dealing with and why. It is not pretty.

Hugs to anyone who has to go through it. Pass the scampi fries...wish it would stop pissing with rain.

Hi tryingherbest,

You are probably right, I do know most of the answers to the Q's. I'm lacking in self belief though! Being told you are wrong about everything for years creates a lot of self doubt. I know that if I pointed out precise examples of how my h exhibits N behaviour to him he would tear apart every one to make me look crazy and foolish. Again. It's reassurance more then anything else I need at the moment.

I don't have any support. My mum visited at the weekend and it made such a difference to be able to talk about all this face to face with someone. The rest of the time it's just me, the intenet and the kindness of you posters who take time to reply!

As for getting back to the UK, I sought legal advice on Monday and learned that I could, indeed, move back with my dc. My h will probably put in a complaint to the courts here, but I have been reassured that unless moving will cause serious harm to my dc, then I probably won't be stopped. It is now my long term plan to initiate this move and it means I will eventually have support as a single parent.

Financially I survive. My h refused to support me 6 years ago after the birth of my 2nd child and depression left me unable to return to work. I had no option but to seek lone parent benefit and it has meant I can pay rent, bills and buy food without having the money taken away by h as 'punishment'. On the down side, my illegal claim to be a lone parent has always been used by h to keep me in my place - 'If you get caught both you and me will get sent to prison and the kids will be put into care' - but I have since learned from womens aid that I'm not the only woman who has ended up having to do this because of an abusive h.

It's amazing what you learn when you start to talk. And now I've started talking I can't seem to stop! It is keeping me focused by posting here. I don't look for sympathy but rather an outlet to vent after all the years of suffering in silence. This will probably end up as a long thread of just me ranting away. I don't mind if you don't?!

Hello again therealme.

You definitely need to keep questioning and to gain support from every source you can. That is one of the ways you can gain some power in the situation you are in.

Back to your last question about older DC's and their NDads. One of the things I find hard to understand about my circumstances is why did my relationship last so long when most N's devalue and discard after a few years?

I think it was because I'd had a co-dependent mother as a role model and I was very very good at being a source of narcissistic supply. But to the detriment of my DS..

I was so brainwashed that when I first googled NPD I believed that I was reading about myself and that it was I who was an N and not my ExH. This I now realise was because ExN had projected his disordered personality onto me and accused me of everything that he was over half my lifetime that I totally believed it.

Eventually when I analysed the NPD criteria I realised that I didn't feel superior to others, I could feel empathy and love and that I didn't have an inflated view of my/our achievements - just that I was duplicitous in make-believing a lifestyle we didn't have to keep him stable.

Anyway, that's my excuse for standing by and watching my ExN devalue our DS from around the age of 14 and I live with the guilt every waking moment.

He'd criticise his appearance, no school achievements were good enough, if he scored straight A's he should have got A*'s, he was a useless, lazy, disrespectful little shit according to ExN, and worse. He very nearly conivinced me DS was a cocaine addict, a thief, a conman, a user and more. Of course under that kind of treatment DS's behaviour did indeed become out of control at times. He drank too much, smoked too much weed, stayed out too late etc. And ExN's responses were totally disproportionate to anything he'd done and the rows and rages were terrible.

In the end I began to cover up for DS in any way I could, lie to ExN to keep him from finding out anything about DS. DS and I would text each other stories about where we'd been, what we'd done to keep ExN off our backs. The stress was incredible, talk about walking on eggshells! As I said before 18 months ago DS took an overdose and had his stomach pumped, he refused to tell anyone the cause but I know it was pre-planned. Guess he'll tell me when he's ready but I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with ExN's behaviuor. DS now lives with me and has as little contact with ExN and his family as he can.

We also have a DD aged 9 who adores her daddy and he currently idealises her. At present ExN has shared custody of her but I'm really worried as to whether he'll do the same to her when she gets older and starts to question him. Or maybe he won't - perhaps she will always be the golden child. I also worry about whether she'll develop a PD too (pretty certain DS is OK in that area)

It was only by asking questions and researching endlessly that I was able to see that I was actually colluding with ExN by enabling him to emotionally abuse our DS, from a situation that had seemed to be normal to me.

Again, a very long post but I hope that it helps you to see what might happen if you continue to stay with your N. At least you've realised what you're dealing with at an early stage. If truth be known, I knew deep within me 10 years ago that something was wrong but I went into denial because I thought if I worked really hard at my marriage I could save it and rescue my troubled N. It also would have been helpful if other people around me who knew what was going on had intervened (meaning N's fucked up toxic family members and my DC's uncles, aunts, grandparents & godparents) Any way, if my shameful story helps others at least some good has come from a bad situation.

Keep talking, keep asking!

Digitalis, you write brilliantly and with great insight, about this whole awful issue. You are so clear and so right about the colluding thing,, about the niggling sense that something was wrong years ago but not knowing what, and about the devaluing process of your son in such a terrible way.

Your dd may indeed remain the 'golden child' but sadly this might mean, I think, that she will remain 'in the cult' as I describe it with my family.

My mother is the N, my father totally co-dependent and a bystander. My older sister is the absolute golden child and has always been so. She is 52 now. There are 3 girls and 2 boys. The girls were pushed and pushed to come top in everything, be the things my mother wasnt etc - she projected all her wants and desires onto her daughters. With me, she failed because she didn't like me and now I have no contact with her at all she loathes me passionately.

She can forgive one brother anything and everything (he was always in trouble at school, didn't study, played truant etc) but my oldest brother, again, she didn't like. She treated him appallingly. He is 57 now and only in the last few years has he gone through a lot of therapy and tried to get over it.

Only that brother and myself are now out of the 'system' or 'cult.' Brainwashing is the right word. He and I were not in contact for about ten years (the N mother did what they are good at - dividing the siblings in order to rule. She painted him as a cruel bastard...my father colluded in that image. So I severed contact with him in my mid-thirties believing he was a shit)

He and I are now back in contact and talk the same language, though he is only very slowly beginning to listen to my insistence that NPD is at the root of it all. I think, partly, because he doesn't want to think much about his mother or the 'family' at all anymore!

It is wonderful talking to him. We have not met up again yet and are taking things slowly. He needs to be totally sure, I think, that I am truly out of the 'system' so that he can trust me. Poor poor chap. He is so lovely - handsome, kind, funny, highly intelligent, he runs a successful business and has made pots of money, is creative, has masses of love and empathy and a good circle of friends. NOT a shit! My mother N must have hated him for having the character and talents that she didn't. Ns are very very envious paranoid people inside.

This is a long post too but, I agree - we who have been through this MUST keep asking questions, as as it gives us back some sense of control over our chaotic lives. Clarity and understanding makes us LIKE ourselves again. I had come to hate myself but knew I was a good person...They fuck you up royally these Ns.

Realme, I hope you are ok. I am still learning about it and looking back and re-assessing times in my life. It's like doing a gigantic jig-saw puzzle and it is rewarding knowing that I am slowly putting the pieces together and getting the full picture.

Keep writing about it digitalis will you? because I am very interested in your experiences too.

Unlikely and Digitalis,
I read your posts this morning and have been thinking and re reading them all day. There is so much you have written that rings true for me, and this is the thing about talking to others who have lived this life - you are expressing what I am thinking and know to be true about my own life right now!

When I first learned about this PD a few weeks ago it hit me like a sledgehammer and all I could think was 'why didn't I see all this before now?' My life as it is was just normal to me, I think I had become desensitised to what h was doing to me. It has gotton worse over the years but it has lasted for years because I too have been a very good N supply. I have colluded with h's behaviour and allowed it to become normal. I too went back over the N behaviours described and tried to apply them to myself - after all, I knew h would if he knew what I had been reading. I now find myself wondering about all the other things I have been accused of over the years and looking at them as applying to h instead. My head hasn't stopped spinning since I first learned about NPD.

It's true what you say Unlikely, I am in the process of putting together a huge jig-saw of my life. Every new piece of information means I have to take out an old, wrong piece and refit it with the new. The past 17 years have been based on a false reality and I have to clense myself of all the brainwashing that has made me into this ghost of who I really am. But I have to understand what has been happening to me if I am ever going to be able to put it behind me.

I am finding this thread really helpful, to be able to discuss this with people who actually understand and can shed light is fab and I feel a lot calmer than I have for a while!.

Although I can talk about ExN's behaviour to friends and family that I trust - I never mention the N word because I think they'll think I'm a crazed loon.

Unlikely, that's great that you are re-kindling a relationship with your brother. It must be a relief for both of you to know that the other understands after years in the wilderness. You mother sounds pretty severe.

Therealme there is a guy who writes prolifically and posts on the internet about NPD called Dr Sam Vaknin. He is actually an N himself and so I've been wary about what he writes, but what he does say seems to really ring true with my experiences. He also writes about what N's really feel and experience and for me that's been a very important part of my jigsaw as my questions have been stuff like "do they know they're doing it" "what is going through their mind" "what do they feel for their children" etc. And always why, why why.

My next worry is about my daughter, I know she is only 9 but I have got a little worried voice in my head and I know now I shouldn't ignore it.

For sometime now she has been faking illnesses or making an enormous drama about small injuries. Not to get time off school - quite the opposite. For example, she asked me to put her arm in a sling after she twisted it on the trampoline so that she could go into school wearing it to gain sympathy from her friends. She has made up stories to other children about being bullied at school, (having investigated I'm certain she isn't) also that she had a broken toe when she didn't. She has had a sore throat and keeps looking up the symptoms of swine flu on the internet.

As this is one of her father's favourite tactics, he's a chronic hypochondriac, I'm a little worried. Also ExN's mother is (I believe) a histrionic N. On the other hand she has just experienced her parents traumatic separation.

Don't know how I would cope with a child with NPD, it doesn't bear thinking about....

Digitalis,
I understand your fears and worries around your dd. I too am scrutinising the behaviour of my 2nd ds who is overly dramatic about everything and very much dependent on me to meet his needs still.
I wonder though am I reading things into his behaviour that I shouldn't be? He is only 6 yo and according to what I've read the NP is stuck at a mentality of a 6 yo. I want to learn more about damage limitation to prevent any child of mine developing a PD before it's too late!! H has a sister whom we've all known has some form of PD - and tbh she's taken all the negative attention in the family up till now. As childrens minds are still developing and their personalities forming, surely it is possible to influence them in the right direction still? Again, from what I have read, NPD seems to develop in late adolescene/early adulthood which would suggest that the years leading up to this are still open to influence of a positive nature?

I am a complete novice with this topic. I too would welcome any advice/reassurance as protecting my dc has become paramount to me at this stage.

Its 2.40am and I must go to bed, but I just want to say, you MUST have a sense of humour with your dcs to help them feel secure, ok and 'normal'

Ns have a sense of humour bypass. They fake amusement. Or if they feel genuinely amused it is within very narrow and blurry parameters.

So, join your DCs in laughing - at the world and, importantly, at themselves. Learn a few easy child-friendly jokes, smile at them a lot, tickle them. Laugh and giggle with them. Make life full of lightness when they are with you.

Just a normal amount of pressure...

Feel your way over the 'normal' part but remember, successful families are loving, chatty, open and able to have a giggle together. The Ns hate this as they have no idea how to laugh (or dance, in my experience) 'normally.'

And yes digitalis, if I start talking about NPD I too get the glazed look, or the 'you are excusing him and mad' look.

Grrr.

Any more vodka in that bottle? Just a dash? Pass it over here...

How are you doing therealme?

Hi Minky, thank you for asking, I have had a really bad day and was about to let off some steam on here when I read your message So here goes....

My eldest dc told his Dad that he really wanted a big bedroom this morning. H replied that he was willing to give him ours, but 'Mum won't let you have it' (always my fault, I'm always the killjoy). This was relayed to me by dc, so I thought, what the hell, I'm planning on leaving soon, so I said he could swap rooms. Naturally h then presumed I would be doing all the work - taking beds apart etc. I refused. So h engaged dc in doing the job.

While they started taking apart beds my dc made a comment about the way h and I are with each other. It is apparent to the dc that I am no longer behaving like a doormat and am starting to stand up for myself and this isn't going down too well with h. H's explanation was that 'adults have an ego and this creates pride, and some adults (ie, me) cannot apologise when they are in the wrong'. This was a direct reference to the fact that I have refused to apologise for being 10 mins late with h's second breakfast in bed weeks ago. It means he still thinks my indifference to him now is because of that row, which is a relief in a way because he really has no idea that I am wise to him. But it made me angry all the same as he is blaming me once again, and doing it directly to my dc!

Anyhow, the bedrooms were changed. My bed was taken apart, the mattress put on floor of dc's old room, and the rest dumped in shed because 'he couldn't be bothered' to put it back together. He has set himself up nicely in his own room, all my things excluded and no space for me to move them in. I had been relagated to sleeping on the couch anyway but now I have a waldrobe and chest of drawers in the dc's bedroom that is my only personal space.

All day he has been issuing demands to dc to make him tea, put his laundry in the wash, get this, give this to Mummy. I've stopped meeting his demands so he has turned to the dc to meet his needs instead. They're 10, 6 and 4. I am feeling so low and isolated at the moment. I keep telling myself that I just need to bide my time and I'll be out of here one day soon. I hate to think that he is turning the dc against me - and I know this will definitely be the case once I do go.

This has turned into a huge rant, sorry! I wish I had someone to talk to here. It's the isolation that has always kept me quiet in the past. TG for sites like this, I really feel like I've found people who understand.

Oh god, you poor thing, I really haven't got first hand experience of this, so am not much help, but I fopllowed your posts, and felt huge respect for you. Reading through was like watching a flower open, sorry if that souds a bit soppy. You're on a mad journey, and it's going to be such hard work, but one thing you can be sure of is that the destination will definitely be worth it!
He sounds like a horrible piece of work, and by the sounds of things he will probably try to turn your dc against you, but it won't work, they will realise. Blimey, especially if he turns tham in to his personal servants!!!

In your mind, look forward 40 years, god, I sound like a cruel hard cow, but just imagine if he carries on like this, he will be very very lonely. Your dc will know what he's like one day, and he will pay.

Good move re the bedroom btw.

So sorry you're feeling so isolated. Keep posting here, it's great to get it down.

Why oh why did I engage in a conversation with him today?
After weeks of staying detached and focused I responded to his texts and here I am again, feeling the guilt and blame for having made his life a misery.
I thought I'd give him one last chance to show he had some iota of empathy towards me and it would show he was not N. But no, despite giving specific examples of how i'd shown I was sorry for past mistakes, and talking about how his behaviour and actions towards me and his family were not normal, he still persists in his belief that I am to blame for everything and ignored any comments that were too close to the bone in truth.

I stupidly engaged with him and now I've spent the evening sinking into the old familiar pattern, where his words of blame start to pull me into submission and I feel nothing but guilt that it has all been my fault.

He told me today that he knew I was planning to leave and that he would no longer be signing dd's passport application, 'to save him from some legal bills'. He told me that I was a shrew, a 'hostile and bitter housewife who punishes her husband unrelentingly' and that if I 'make amends I wouldn't have to take sh*t'.

It always comes down to the same argument. I can't be trusted, I haven't made amends for past mistakes, if I just made amends he wouldn't treat me like this. It's a cycle of argument that has been going on for years. Everytime I get involved in this 'discussion' I come out of it feeling like crap - that I am this awful failure who has ruined h's life.

Well if he won't sign dd's passport application there is no need to wait. I'll try again on Friday when he is home from work. If he still refuses then I put my plans to move into action. I must get away from him. Things will never change for me until I do, and I can't keep living like this!

Sorry to hear you are having such a rotten time at home therealme. Unfortunately your H will never change if he is an N, he cannot feel empathy for anyone and these guys cannot see anyone else's point of view but their own. It is a waste of energy trying to get them to see how their behaviour makes you feel or that it is wrong. They simply cannot believe it.

How has he guessed that you are planning to leave him? Do you have plans in place and have you the strength and support to carry them out safely?

I wish you all the luck in the world, you really deserve a better life for yuorself and the DC's than what you have at the moment.

He may try to turn your children away from you initially and you will need all your strength to deal with this. But if they see you acting consistently as a loving and caring mum who they can rely upon they will see their father for what he is by comparison.

I have a friend who is the daughter of an N and whose parents seperated in predictable circumstances. Her insights into what it is like to be the child in this situation have been really helpful to me. Her advice when I left my H was to act with dignity, not to slag off the father but to explain to the DC's why I left in language they could understand giving examples rather than name-calling etc. The children do not know any other way of life so it is hard for them to see why the behaviour is wrong they don't know any different, but given time, love and reassurance they will understand even though they may love their father. They will need support to deal with him as they grow older and possibly become a target.

You are a very brave and strong person to be thinking of forging a new life for all of you when in many ways it is an easier option to stay. Certainly in practical terms.

Be gentle with yourself and try not to doubt that which you know is the truth, it really is not your fault this is happening and do not believe the bad things he says about you. It's likely he is projecting his own weaknesses not describing yours. He will pick up on anything you have said or done in the past and exaggerate them, also he knows your fears and areas of guilt and will play on these relentlessly.

Keep posting, there are lots of virtual supporters rooting for you!

Hi therealme,
Well I was going to go through my story again, here, as I have more certainty and thought it might be a bit of a diversion...but I'll spare you . But generally-I separated myself from my Middle Sister around the time my dd2 was born 17 months ago. She has not seen her, although I have sent pictures.

The concept of "target" is good, I am glad that came up in this thread as it has given me more "Metaphysical Certitude" in what is going on, and thus more validity of my dealing with it.

I wasn't always the target, that belonged to the adult children of my sister's friends. Twenty somethings who are apt to make a few mistakes... so easy to be superior to that. I think her best friend's daughter had finally had enouth and gave her mom an ultimatium regarding my sister.

This is conjecture on my part, but that is when, I believe, my sister turned her "attention" to me, in ernest. She wasn't going after my children (15 & 16 yrs and now baby), she was treating me as HER adult child-or else I didn't exist.

Our parents are dead. We vowed to remain close. But Oldest Sister had had enough degradation from her a few years back. I wish I had been more attentive, or intelligent, or educated in these matters then. Middle sister, I believe, saw herself as Matriarch; Oldest Sister was the "problem" child, and I was her "golden" child. Her dismissiveness of me became reflexive. Ridicule ("I am so amusing"). Degradation. Invalidation.

FOG: fear, obligation, guilt
She is my sister, she doesn't have anyone...

But what about me? I do EXIST, and I'm just not going to put up with it anymore. Her treatment of me is factual. Her denial of it will not change the fact of it. Her apology of "I have obvioulsy upset you, but I am scratching my head- I just can't figure out how" is insulting (it is what a card carrying bully would say).

therealme: Please find a place in your head where you just won't hear him anymore. Appear to listen, but in one ear and straight out the other-nothing sticks. Everything that justifies your escape has been proven over and over and over and nothing will change the fact of it or the effect of it. Think of it as the "discovery part" is over-you do not need any more proof; on to the action/resolution. And that will lead to peace of mind-the kind of peace where you are not rehashing episodes over and over in your mind endlessly.

Sorry so long . Good luck, stay strong and focused.

Hi, have calmed down thanks to reassurances from people who have been in this situation on line, both on here and at home.

I also wrote out the text conversation between me and h in order of replies to one another, and it has helped me see just how futile it is trying to resolve anything with him. Rational discussions, my point of view, valid comments - all completely lost on him. It was simply a repeat of many, many arguments that have gone before, all ending in the same message; I am in the wrong, I have caused all the problems, he is therefore justified in treating me the way he does.

Digitalis, I have no idea how he came to the conclusions I am planning to leave. It is probably an assumption he has made because I have not 'caved in' and become submissive once again. He is making comments via text saying things like 'I am no longer convinced I can carry on being married to someone who doesn't want to be married to me'. So now it's no longer about me leaving/abandoning him but a threat to leave me. Mind games. And now all about him I guess?!
Btw, I found your advice in regard to maintaining a dignified approach to my dc really helpful. You are right, they know no different with regard to my relationship with my h. When he is angry with me and blames me they hear only him - by leaving I can also stop this belittling me in front of them I hope.

Toomany, you are right. The knowing and discovering that h is N has been done. I need to put my energy into moving onto the next stage which is to separate myself from him. Engaging with him again these last few days has proven to me how quickly and easily I can fall back into the cycle that has been going on for years. I need to end this.

Hello. Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread. But I have read enough to recognise that my father suffers from NPD (plus also paranoid personality disorder) and i recognise the effect he has had on my mother.

I am 39. I cut ties with both my parents 3 years ago. I wish my mother had had the courage and capacity to see my dad for who he really is as you are able to. I wish my mother had not taken the easy path as she did. She chose to stay with my dad, initially she was his target, and as I have read on here, he favoured me until i started to get a bit older and a bit more independent and to question him. It was then that I became his target. I remained his target until i cut ties as i said 3 years ago. I have spent the time since then sorting out the mess he left me in emotionally. I also hold my mother equally, if not more responsible for what i went through, as she clearly knew he was targetting me, and she chose to do nothing.

I am sure what you are contemplating is so very hard because your husband has badly damaged your self esteem and your self confidence. But you must go through with it, both for your own sake and for the sake of your children. You will not regret it. You are giving yourself the chance to be at peace one day and happy again. I wish my mother had been like you; I have suffered so much and it was all preventable, if only my mother had had the courage to act. You have my utmost respect for your bravery, good luck.

Message withdrawn

Sqiggly,
You have, in a nutshell, summed up my h perfectly. The many elaborate gifts over the years made me think he cared about me. But oh how I wish he had simply bathed any of my 3 dc even once...changed a nappy...dressed them....washed their faces in the morning...even just got them up in the morning! I have, in effect, been operating as a single parent for years. Infact, I'd have had less work as a single parent...

One bit of good news, he actually signed the passport application for my dd today. Now I have no reason to stay tied to him. I can start house hunting for a new home for me and my dc. This may only get underway once my eldest dc have gone back to school as I will need to keep my plans to myself and can't aford the dc knowing and therefore letting Daddy know!

I am so utterly sick and tired of living in this mans shadow now. Discovered today he has my mobile ph no under the name 'crazy bitch' on his ph! If he thinks I'm crazy now....?! Have cronic bachache from sleeping on the couch. Still meeting his demands as to how I live my life, where I go and what I do. Can't sleep but so, so tired....

Hello again. You are doing so well. Keep going. I am a bit concerned about a couple of things you say - the 'bitch' thing on his mob ph (complete devaluation) and about him suggesting he may want out of the marriage. It is possible he might do a runner (disappearing act) of some sort himself - often when Ns know/think they are about to be abandoned, they do the abandoning first. And they trash people on their way out, with no remorse, only self-pity.

What is your financial position? Do you have a single bank account and some money he cannot access? If you do not have a UK account can you set one up somehow (by phone - give a relatives address and number as your uk address)? Whose name is the house in? Have you gathered together important documents and put them somewhere safe - like bank statements, mortgage details, his pension details if he has one, your driving license and you and dcs passports.

I am sorry that you have to come to terms with the fact that he never loved you, he only loves himself but in time you will see that you have had a very lucky escape - and anyway, you have your beautiful dcs so something wonderful in your life came out of this horrid union.

Also, he is probably signing the dcs passport because in his head he is either thinking 'when this is over people will see her as a secretive cow and me as the nice person who was badly manipulated by her - look, I signed the passport and she stole my children' blah blah. It's total bollox. They don't really love their children either so feel no qualms at all.

Do you have to find somewhere to live (I think you are abroad - are you going to rent somewhere there first or move back here? Sorry, I can't remember.)

Is there anyone trusted you can tell your plans to, so that you can get support nd encouragement? It makes it more real for you as well, telling someone else your plans.

Keep posting. Remain casual and dignified, but watch him like a hawk in case he does something really shitty to screw you or your plans up.

Sorry if I sound overdramatic, I don't mean to. But really, once the devalution is complete they can discard VERY quickly. Prepare yourself just in case. Lots of love and virtual support to you. They are chaotic mad bastards and they usually end up lonely, paranoid, friendless and emotional and financial wrecks, if that's any consolation. You won't care a toss about him by then and will be living a peaceful and happy life.

Oh crap unlikely, think you may be right. He came home with a new tattoo on his arm last week. When I saw it properly yesterday I realised it is actually a new tattoo that has been drawn over an old one - my name! So he is beginning to eradicate all signs of 'me' from his life.
Will he bail out first? He will have to start saving some money first. He has a serious problem with holding onto money, spends it like water, despite having no living costs because he lives off of me. I rent the house in which we live. I have my own bank account and source of money. He can't get to that - but he can try to mess with it in other ways.

I do hear what you are saying about him being able to discard very quickly. I could never understand in the past how he could cut himself off emotionally from pople so quickly and with so little effort. Not just me, but friends, his mum, siblings. I have experienced his cold calculating acts of revenge many times. Whatever he does from now on, the level of vindictive behaviour he applies to me, it won't surprise me. Luckily I have been able to start to cut myself off emotionally from him. The more I read, learn, talk about h and his treatment of me, the more I realise he has never loved me. Has used me. Will only ever have his own interests at heart, and will never change. This took some adjusting to at first, it meant re evaluating everything I thought I knew and felt. The truth is finally sinking in. It has brought me a lot of relief - I'm not a complete fuk up after all! But I wonder too, how different, how less lonely, how less hard* my life might have been if I had never met this man?
Oops! Sinking into self pity a bit there.
Can't do that,
I need to stay strong and focused now. x

therealme just to add weight to what you are saying at the moment, someone I know was involved with a narcissist for 13 years. Elaborate gifts tick, isolation from her own family tick, in fact hatred of her own family, nice as pie to everyone else, pillar of church and community.

Anyway - she tried to end it once after about 6 yrs but he basically forced his way back by stalking and threats combined with charm offensive.

But the second time, we were getting ready for sheer hell and a dreadful time of it, assuming he would start the usual behaviuor of threats, crises, suicide threats, stalking, involving family and so on. These things had all been ramped up in the previous few months. But then - once he realised she was actually serious this time - poof! He vanished. We found out later he had moved on to someone else.

My friend, while relieved, was also sad to realise that she could be moved on from so quickly, but basically he could see the way the land was lying and obviously felt it would make himself feel better and more in control to pretend that he had made the break.

But hey - hooray!

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Oneplusone,
I keep reading back your message. It reassures me that I am doing the right thing. I always put up with his behaviour because I told myself the dc needed their Daddy. He was a good father. They needed a good male role model. He taught them how to live to high standards..... Oh my goodness am I seeing things differently now.
He is not a good father. Womens aid helped show me that. He is not a good role model, he is a damaged man. He doesn't 'teach' them good standards, he instructs them in how they should live their lives according to his rulebook only.

My dc will find it very hard indeed when I finally remove them from their home and their Daddy. I hope they will understand one day and I hope I will cope with their distress.

I'm sorry your mum wasn't able to leave, it must have caused you a lot of pain. Perhaps, like the old me, she really didn't think it would cause so much damage? She must have become so desensitised to your Dad's behaviour in order to survive herself. I know my own feelings have taken a back seat for years and this may have made me 'blind' to the effect h was having on all the family. I was told that after prolonged emotional abuse your 'fight or flight' instinct is lost. It would explain why I, and perhaps your mum, did nothing. I am lucky, I found a parenting site, talked anominously about my life late one night and the rest is history.... However, that does not make it right that you had to suffer for years at the hands of a N. And that is why your message to me is so important that I keep reading it back.
Many hugs, therealme x

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H has taken some drugs this evening.
He has done so in the past, less and less so in later years though. He wanted me to take some this evening - I said no!!

Should I be worried in light of the fact that he may be starting to 'devalue' me now?

In the past drug taking has always resulted in him wanting sex, of a rough nature (sorry!) and I always complied. Do not want to now

Have 3 kids in the house, don't have anywhere to go at short notice.

Any advice as to what might be going on in his head right now? I have to say I am a bit unnerved. Thanks.