Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

And so what if he is diagnosed NPD? Will that suddenly make everything OK? It's such a red herring.

I think he had asked TRM for some photos of her a while back but she had destroyed them. I read the reference to prying as being something he had done while 'visiting' the children, and that he had used the visitation time, while TRM was off in her bedroom and couldn't see what he was doing, to poke around through her house and belongings.

This man does nothing just to oblige or help. There's always something in it for an N, and you don't have to scratch too far under the surface to find out exactly what it might be. The copious apologies are a smoke screen here, as well as being a 'poor me' essay and a monologue of sorts about how he has apologised previously and wholeheartedly. Anyone reading this who was not familiar with him might be fooled into thinking that he was really sincere and well-disposed towards TRM, and basically always was, and that TRM was a coldhearted witch for being cold towards him and refusing to let him into the house to see the children or continuing to engage with him in discussion of their relationship. He comes across as looking eminently reasonable, self-aware, apologetic, even willing to submit himself to professional evaluation. You mightn't guess, reading this, that some of his behaviour included smashing mirrors and other outrageous acts that TRM has described.

The meat of the e-mail is the idea he will get his diagnosis in writing, and the fact that he has been prying into TRM's business while in the house.

Bertie, you are wise beyond your years, you know? I wish I had been so level headed at your age, maybe I wouldn't have rushed full tilt into a marriage after only 3 months.. Then again, I was never stupid, just 'NPDed'.

My biggest problem is that the access to the dc cannot be regular. He works 24hr shifts on a 6 week rota. Therefore he is never free the same days 2 weeks in a row. Initially my solicitor tried to extract his work rota from him and insisted on 2 weeks notice for access dates. But the rota never materialised and we have been left arranging access from one appearance to another. He has avoided being pinned down to formal access dates. I think this is his way of maintaining control.

My dc are used to seeing their Dad come and go during the week. I can manage weekly access with 24hr notice so long as I cut myself off from any other communication from him about 'missing me', taking tests or his plans in general. And I am doing so.

With regard to his 'prying' - ah yes, he has indeed been prying. He has discovered my original thread on Rollercoaster and as a result I haven't been back to it. I also suspect he has rifled through papers and letters belonging to me. I have now 'tidied' away all personal stuff to my bedroom where I stay when he visits the dc.

As for refusing him entry to the house to visit the dc....I wonder why I don't just say no? I guess it is because I am afraid of confrontation. But really it is more then just avoiding a row. If I tell him tomorrow that he can no longer visit the dc in my house I fear I leave myself open to his wrath on a scale in which I have never experienced. I am not used to saying no!
I also fear I will be the one responsible for ending the contact he has with the dc - 'I can't come and see you as Mummy won't let me in the house'
The rational side of my mind says 'He has left the house and must make his own arrangements to see the dc outside of it'
The cowering and fearful side of me says 'Let him in to see the dc or they won't see him at all - and your life will be all the easier if you do'

I guess I have a lot of thinking to do. If I refuse him access to the dc here then there will undoubtedly be a back lash. He has threatened starting a thread about me. I have to be in a strong frame of mind before I make my decision to refuse him entry to my house as there will be a consequence. Always a bloody consequence eh? He really has me over a barrel doesn't he? I need to build up some courage to be able to do this first.

TRM, I would seriously consider standing my ground (though I understand so well where you're coming from here) and being ready to call the Guards if he makes any kind of a fuss there and then. I know this isn't the exact thing that worries you, it's the things he can do when he gets home to mammy's and puts his mind to it. His power stems from your fear. If you can, get some counselling over this, and try to address your fears, problems you have about guilt or shame, etc. Try to imagine the worst case scenario. How bad would it be? Can you see yourself getting through it? In your mind's eye, can you envision yourself going through the worst he could dish out and yet waking up the next morning?

Can you have a chat with your solicitor about possible consequences for him of starting a thread about you? That is a really specific threat -- I believe it's the kind of thing a court could issue an order to prevent. Your solicitor should really follow up about the work schedule. He is using the irregular hours to yank your chain.

Plus, how terrible would it really be for the DCs not to see him?

XXXXXXX

"Anyone reading this who was not familiar with him might be fooled into thinking that he was really sincere and well-disposed towards TRM, and basically always was, and that TRM was a coldhearted witch for being cold towards him and refusing to let him into the house to see the children or continuing to engage with him in discussion of their relationship. He comes across as looking eminently reasonable, self-aware, apologetic, even willing to submit himself to professional evaluation."

OMG at last. At long, long last somebody has an insight into my life!
Thank you so much Maths for your last post - you have no idea how relieved I am or what that meant to me. You see beyond the facade he has woven and have listened to me. You have just written down everything I have ever wanted to say to anybody that would listen but never could. He has left me confused and doubtful, but you have heard my experience and believed me. I'm not a dysfunctional fuck up after all. I do have a voice!

xxxx TRM -- sadly I am familiar with the species... The facade can be pierced. It can be demolished. It has no foundation in reality. People like your ex get carried away by their own hot air. Most people have an inkling there's something 'off' about them, even if they don't know exactly what.

TRM you are so not a dysfunctional fuck up.

Trust yourself and trust the truth.

Thank you TRM Although it's easier to be level headed looking at someone else - not so easy when you are emotionally involved.

I think that NPD does affect the "victims" on so many levels - I look at old diary entries before I got together with XN and it's interesting, because firstly I had just got out of a relationship where I was in love with the guy, and was convinced he loved me, but he refused to settle and wanted to sleep around, so I ended it - which was so hard to do - and promised myself that if ever I was in a relationship where one thing was badly wrong, it didn't matter how "perfect" the rest of it was, I had to end it, and yet I didn't for ages - even though I used to lie in bed missing the ex who slept around, because he was much nicer to me (affectionate etc) than XN ever was! And another incident happened around that time, which made me think "I am not going to have sex/do anything sexual that I don't want to, ever again" - and that caused a few problems early on with XN, but still, I didn't see that as a warning sign, and he ended up chipping away and I ended up doing things I didn't want to again - and then the other one which was promising myself that I would never marry someone unless I had been with them for at least 3 years and no children until we had been together 5 (arbitrary figures, but the principle was there) - XN managed to get me engaged to him by 10 months into the relationship and pregnant at 9 months (did not realise I was pg until after engaged, it was not related, apart from he convinced me to come off the pill) - and my mum always advised me to live on my own/with friends for a year between living at home, and living with a partner - I was absolutely going to do this, but forgot all about it when under XN's spell.

So looking back, I was a pretty head-screwed-on person, even at 18 - and yet I still managed to end up in that relationship and it took quite a lot to get me out of it. I know that the problem was I was still hurting over ending the other relationship, so I was vulnerable, and then by the time I realised the other things it was too late. TBH the only reason I got out so soon is probably a combination of mumsnet and talking to my own mum who has just been brilliant. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to come out of such a relationship after many years of marriage - I know I am lucky in my situation.

It is strange how people are taken in by someone with NPD. But maybe it just depends on the way in which they are involved with them. When my sister first met my H her comment to me was 'he is cold'. When my brother first met him I have in later years learnt that he thought he was an arrogant bullshitter full of himself, who just talked about himself most of the time (although, of course, they are very good at displaying interest in other people, which someone who was pretty naive like me, used to think to be genuine). Whereas, in the past, (not now) my H used to like to entertain at home and would be very generous and make an effort putting on a nice dinner etc for people. I am sure he is viewed by these people as being a lovely, friendly, kind, credible, polite ................person.

I found with my H, during a year's separation, how able he was to just cut off from our children emotionally. I don't know how your dc's dad is, but my H is very different to me and is not capable of deep feelings of a bond, in my opinion, even with his dc. When we were separated he could just cut off from them and not feel he was missing them or anything. Consequently he didn't bother to seem them most of the time, and when he did, he would play games and muck me and them about right up until last minute before he was due to pick them up.

My NPD H was messing with our dc's heads.

My ex did the 'cutting off emotionally' thing to me. Would cut me stone cold dead - all friendly interaction withdrawn. It isolated me, punished me and left me desperate for forgiveness in the beginning. After a few years I got used to it and just withdrew into myself, stopped relying on him, learned to distance myself from his punishments and stopped crying.

Now he is unable to mess with my head by cutting me off emotionally. Instead he is harassing me with texts, email and; as of this morning, hand delivered material.
He doesn't like being ignored! He is persisting in his endevours to get me to see what a horrible person I was to him. The envelpoe that arrived this morning contained a photocopy of a note I wrote many years ago in an anniversary card when we still had a functoning relationship. It was accompanied by a list of quotes by Tiger Woods, post affair revelation, in which he talks about seeking his spouses forgiveness and having to achieve this through a 'grand gesture'. Pinned to that was a highlighted quote ripped out of a text book describing how people often wished somebody dead, would say it out loud, but it only ever stayed as a fantasy.

Of course, I know what all of the above means. I was wrong by being unfaithful, I hadn't done enough to seek his forgiveness. He often told me I had to display a grand gesture, when I asked him what it was that he wanted me to do to prove how sorry I was his reply was always 'It's not for me to tell you, you should know'. Whatever I did, it was never enough. After 2 years in psychotherapy to 'fix myself' I remember my therapist telling me that it didn't matter how many times I said sorry, it was never going to be enough. He had found his stick to beat me with and I gave it to him!

Anyway, there is no point in going back over this. I have spent years listening to him disect my behaviour and have been left demoralised and exhausted in my attempts to make amends. I have released myself from having to spend every day of my life trying to seek forgiveness. It was never going to happen and if todays mail proves anything then it tells me he is never going to stop hounding me over this. He believes he is owed by me, he is looking for his justice. I don't think he will be happy until he has crushed me in some way - not physically, but destroyed my mind in some way? He won't be happy until I end up a quivvering wreck on a psychiatric ward rocking backwards and forwards muttering how I deserved to end up like this as I was such an awful wife and he was a saint to put up with me!

Well now that's cheered you all up hasn't it?
Don't worry, my mind is still sound. I just need to let off a bit of steam every now and then and have a little ramble on here. I will continue ignoring. Eventually he might do something out of desperation and end up breaking the safety order, in which case it will be game over. I hope!

if you go to this link www.drjoecarver.com and scroll right down to the end, past exit plan, there are some strategies for dealing with an NPD (or loser as they call it) after you've ended the relationship.

It's all exactly what we know, but it always helps to see it in black and white again. It talks about the sweet and mean cycle too.

here, scroll right down to ending the relationship and follow up protection

we all know it already, but ..

omg, he's like some lawyer, cross-examining you and trying to trip you up. Well, continue to take the fifth!

Keep on ignoring, ignoring, ignoring. Don't torture yourself about the past, about giving him a stick to beat you with. Try not to dwell on the 'should haves' or go around regretting. Don't give the past the power to define you.

this man is really nuts and what you have been through i have also been their but now i am as hard as nails do yo know what really fucks them up . just ignore them and be happy that shows them that they have totally lost control just think he is messed up in the head and you are ok if you have not done so already leave him and fast .he is a self obsessed moron that will feed off your emotions if you let him so what if you cheated was it not his selfless behavior that lead you just move on i have been their the using the sex card and ignoring calls just to hear how i would react and the countless mind games you know what my ex is doing now if i call him he does not answer the call then he will cal back about 4 hours later and say i am just returning your call that game has been played out when i last saw him i realised that he was a childish nutter and to me i do not know what i saw in him i am now in control and since i read all this tread i realised after all this time that both him and my kids dad has the same disorder. so i went through the crap 2 times and now i totally know whats up i am as free as a bird now and happily in control.

i went through it the not talking to me telling me that i was loseing it and that i was mad not eating from me cause i wa going to kill him and that i worked for some people i was supposed to also be a informant to the police and i was super rich,. and continuously get quotes from the bible and at one stage i was supposed to have seduced him. now that was my kids dad and he would always be preaching and i slept with every one.

My ex which ended not too long ago after i waited 4 years to date again was to pretend that he wanted to have sex then pull away ignore my phone calls make me cry endlessly by telling me that he wanted to be with me no more thought that he was soooo handsome and once i went out with him i was told to walk behind him cause he was so important and allot of people knew him. he played with my mind to no end. It took me 2 months to figure him out and get rid he wanted me to marry him so that he could get his papers when i refused that was it a total bastard came out when i met him he was perfect. out of the two i do not know which one was worse but here i am on valentines day HAPPY to be single i think the next guy i date will have to go a psychological examination before the first date.

Oh yeh lets not forget when he cried because he wished that he was not so goood looking. that was the last straw.

Really when i look back at all this i think that it is really funny.

oh i have full custody of my little ones and now i have chosen not to let them see their dad as i he just messed with them emotionally so we are better with out him around no more issues. when i did used to let him see the kids he would search through my personal stuff and once went through my mobile and phone my colleagues and asked them if they had sexs with me that was the last straw that just cannot be trusted he would cheat then come and tell me all the girls he slept with . i am so happy i got out and this was all done with the help of womens aid.

.

Hi Therealme,
Hope you are staying strong, focused and entirely firm on your perspective.

The letter......I agree with what the others have said about it. You rest comfortably on the fact that your life with him is over, period, any attempt at discussion is moot. So ignore; it is justifiable and spot on absolutely the best correct thing to do.

The elements in the letter give more clarity/validation to your position rather than his.

I think the letter would re-capture a weak, inexperienced soul, but you know better.

A specific element (besides the overall effect of its appearance) that struck my anoyance is the "whatever other tests you want me to take" and the suggestion that you pay for it. While considering the Jeckle/Hyde flip flop trickery, this has an element of 'projection' in it as well, doesn't it? He always analyzed and produced judgement on your behavior. Now he is projecting that you behave as he did by creating the scenario of you ordering 'tests'. Taking his role-'your turn'-is baiting you to engage in the relationship again.

He is like a dog lying on the floor belly up in submission. And he is hoping that will be irresistible to you. He probably read somewhere that this strategy works, cut and pasted the 'apology', and is now waiting for the spell to take effect.

I know it is not good to be emotionally numb. It is an unconscious coping strategy that can "stick" (as in "if you don't stop making that face it will stick" ) and that is truly dangerous to mental health. However, the lesson is there. This is how you can ignore with expertise.

I can guess that each contact with him requires some sort of 'detox' time. Let that period include rebooting of your feelings to break out of the numbness: positive, good self-talk along with pleasurable events for your senses-nice music, pleasant scents (I forget the fancy word for that ), put some lotion on to make your skin feel good, and look at something nice to make you smile-and do smile. The detox time could be better regarded as positive time for you rather than focusing on the negative aspect of him (well, after the initial venting! ).

Take care.

That was perceptive - about the 'projection', Stuffed (may I call you that? ). Thanks, it's given me food for thought.

TRM, I second Stuffed's advice about taking care over sensory treats for your self. It's an excellent strategy for life, and especially worthwhile when you're recovering from emotional shock. Lovely scented lotions, clean fluffy pillows and super-tasty foods are IN! I'd like to add - comedy. Whatever makes you laugh out loud, get more of it ;)

Enjoy your life - now it's yours again.

toomanystuffedbears, it is a hard habit to get into... the habit of NOT accepting a tiny olive branch which seems, to the untrained eye, sincere and accepting of some responsibility.

I agree, that to the lucky outsider with no NPD experience, it might seem like coldheartedness. That is irritating and upsetting, but there are enough of us online who do get it to make it tolerable, I hope.

I can now accept that my x thinks I'm a lazy, selfish, hysterical loser. It's easier now because I've 85% disconnected from him.. Still on a journey though... of course.

therealme - your ex sounds so similar to my H. I am building a wall blocking my emotions with him (trying to achieve a kind of numbness as protection). I am doing well - but it is harder when you still live with them. I don't like the fact that I am shutting down my emotions (hopefully only around him - not with my DC). I have more emotional energy for them, actually, without it being drained by him. But the complete superficiality of him does get to me as I consider him to be like an empty shell of a person with no hidden depths. I read somewhere they have no soul.

Hi, what a useful thread. I have read some of it and lots and lots about NPD on line. I have had 3 relationships which might well have involved men with NPD. My Mother very possibly had this or something worse. She was very physically and verbally abusive. She even cut my ponytail off in temper. My father left after she kicked him in the groin. My stepfather was co-dependant and servile but hated her. He didn't protect me. She mellowed a bit in her last years, but no one much cared by then and she was left all alone bitching about us. My second relationship involved a man who was very jealous/possessive. He questioned me about any phone calls, or trips out. I was not allowed to leave the house without oneof the children in case I was meeting a lover. He did have affairs but lied and deceived. He used to check the washing basket to see what I had been wearing. Seriously he suggested I wear a burka. He became an alcoholic and I left him. He quickly remarried and paid no maintenance for his children. He had left his first wife and baby again without paying maintenance. He enrolled on an MA course just before the Court hearing and told the Court that he was an impoverished student and couldnt pay.
I stayed single for a long time after him. I then remarried. This has been my least abusive relationship but it is abusive. My Husband has many flirtations and emotional affairs. He denies adultery, but he is a liar. He is a good provider and feels that entitles him to his "fun". He seems to have no idea how I suffer. Is this a lack of empathy? He will sit infront of the tv, see a beautiful woman and say "why don't I ever meet women like that".
I said it once when I say a handsome man. I wanted him to know how it felt. He was shocked. Is this NPD? He buys me expensive jewellry. I commented on his excellent taste in jewelry and he went on buying expensive pieces as he liked the praise. He is a sucker for praise. If he thinks something will impress he will buy it. All I want is a kind husband, but sometimes I use his weakness for praise to get my own way. He buys cars to impress - Look-at-me cars, red sports cars as "Babe Magnets" or very expensive rare models. If I cook something nice he has to cook a better one. I see a lot of "one-up-manship" He likes to compete and NPD is it impossible that he feels any love for me? I find that very sad. I feel I have never been loved except by my 2 sons. I fear my daughter has NPD. We are living half apart. I am learning about NPD and other PD. I have lived a lie.
Do you think my Husband has the problem? What should I do?

From what you've told in your other threads, BA, I suspect you're spot-on with your 'diagnosis'. There's nothing you can do change a narcissist, as they see no reason to change ("everyone's out of step except me".) There are effective ways to 'manage' a narcissist in your life - but it's an exhausting & thankless task, which can seriously damage your self-confidence unless you have professional support throughout.

Your strategy of removing yourself from his orbit seems a good one! This way, hopefully, you only have to 'manage' him at the weekends and can use the rest of the week to work on your self and build your confidence

I like this book: "Enough about you, Let's Talk About Me" by Les Carter. You can 'look inside' the book.

Something else you might want to consider is the ways in which you've progressed from one abusive relationship to another, each one differently abusive from the last. As you know, I empathise with this because it reflects my own pattern. Growing up with an abusive mother, you will have learned coping strategies which - since you were a dependent child - consisted of trying to keep her happy. In this way, you most probably learned to put your own needs last at all times and to accept behaviour that was abusive to you. In a nutshell, this is why people like you & me end up in abusive relationships: we have learned to accept bad behaviour, we don't think to query it, and we put our own needs last at all times.

Although I'm not a big fan of Beverly Engels, many people have found her book, "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" helpful in understanding why they got into the situation (and deciding whether to get out of it!)

I wonder if you could find a good psychologist near you? I think you'd be interested in the therapeutic process - and start building your own emotional security, for a more enjoyable future

Your narcissist would probably be happy to pay for counselling, as he no doubt thinks you're the unstable one!!!
HTH.

Thanks ItsGraceAgain, thanks for all your help and useful links. I have learned so much in quite a short space of time. I always wanted to work out what was wrong with my Mother. It seems I am attracted to narcissists. My husband sort of acknowledged that he is a narcissist. Someone on tv said that Narcissistic men are attracted to high status women. He agreed very enthousiastically and very quickly as if recognising something in himself. I had looked up various Personality Disorders on my computer, and much of Sam Vadkin. I think he saw that on my computer"history" as he commented on me having checked him out on computer.
He used to express constant Envy. I got so fed up of it, I asked him why. I think he looked it up and found himself reading sites on Narcissism. I will get help. I am dreading his birthday on Sunday. It is bound to disappoint for which I will be blamed. Still he soon leaves.