Narsissistic personality disorder

[therealme]

I'm English, living overseas. I'm married for 17 yrs and most of that has been pretty awful. I recently 'came clean' about my abusive relationship with dh on a parenting site where I live and I have had my eyes opened for the first time that maybe it's not all my fault anymore. I have blamed myself for everything that has 'gone wrong' in my marriage - although I have genuinly messsed up on more than one occasion.

I received a lot of support from people but didn't believe I was worthy of it. Then somebody suggested I google Narsissistic Personality Disorder and that is the moment my whole world changed. For the very fist time I began to see that maybe it wasn't ME that might have all the problems. I saw my 'perfect' dh described in black and white and the words 'personality disorder' were attached to his behaviours. To say the ground shifted from under me would be an understatement.

So now I find myself at a turning point in my life. I know I have to end my marriage. It's emotionally, verbally and mentally abusive. I now recognise that I am a shell of the person that I once was, have had the life blood drained out of me, but still have enough of a spark in me to want to fight for some peace of life at 42! I have 3 children whom I love and adore - but who also love their Daddy. I'm living financially independently from my dh who refused to support me financially after ds 2 was born 6 yrs ago. I want him out of the house and out of my life!

I've made my mind up, but I am still so weak when it comes to taking action. I have spent so long living in a confused and guilt-ridden state, does that make sense?
Is there anybody out there who has experience of living with a narsissistic partner? How do you make the break? How do you ever find the strength to stand up to them in order that you might have some quality of life left for yourself? Please advise.....

I can identify with the 'punishing me' for doing something wrong scenario. Before we got married I made a mistake with my ex (was unfaithful once). My H knew about it and we went on to get married. He has, however, used it as a weapon against me to punish me with the entire marriage. No, of course he has never even started to forgive me. He would not. It was preferable to punish me and have something 'over me'. He has held it against me from day one and yes it was preferable to stay with me and punish me rather than leave the marriage (even though, as people point out to me he knew about my mistake before we got married). This mistake I made has enabled him to define me as a whore (everything is black and white to him), and I spent years tormenting myself thinking why can't he see beyond this as I know I did something bad and never repeated it, but I am not a bad person. But someone like him is not interested in forgiveness, I realise.

Obviously, this is just one of the things he has used as a weapon against me. There are many.

You just cannot be the 'real' person you are with a N.

Ok here are some abusive incidents from my relationship, would be interesting to see what those with experience think.
We went to a drive through, he forgot what he had ordered so when the food came wasn't sure if he had all his. He asked me and I said I didn't know, he then went ballistic because I'd eaten a chip before he had his food. I was verbally abused for half an hour.
He's always nice to other people and says other women work hard, yet I'm lazy and my house is dirty
He didn't like conversation with me because I want to talk about "my shit" (meaning my degree) even though I spend hours listening to him whining about his crappy drug addicted life.
He used to verbally abuse me for hours then still expect me to honour any errands I'd agreed to do for him
Wanted a leg massage every day
So what do you think? Are these signs of NPD?

Baggy, if your H set up your email account, assume he reads your emails.

If you change the password, he'll know you know. Can you set up a new account? It's very straightforward. I don't use hotmail, but it's easy in yahoo. Just log into mail.yahoo.co.uk, press the "sign up" button and keep answering the questions that come up.

I'm pretty computer illiterate too, but if it's networked, he may be able to access any documents you save from a different computer in the network.

Be careful,especially with the financial stuff. Does he have access to your bank account details? It might be worth setting up a new bank account.

junglist, not ignoring you! Grace linked to a book in her post on 26th Feb. If you search inside that link, there's a checklist for NPD. Your ex certainly sounds horrible (and familiar!)

Will do that, thanks

Hi again. Actually my Husband set up the hotmail account for one of his girlfriends so that she could conceal his e-mails from her partner. When I found him sending photos of himself to her at this e-mail address he deleted everything on it. He would not tell me the password but I worked it out eventually, as I knew what car she had and that he used such things as passwords. Consequently I have been using the address and deleting the e-mails immediately. For example, Mumsnet will send me e-mails from time to time. I don't want him to know I use this site. My Husband set up my gmail account but although I have changed the password, I think he can access it. I want to change the password to the Hotmail account as both he and the girlfriend could potentially access it. I believe one of them tried to close it down and may believe it to be closed down. It is not. It is useful to have a secret e-mail address.

You are right NicknameTaken about my online banking, I will change the password.

The information about the computer being on a Network has really spooked me. I can access documents that he has saved on Project Gallery, so presumably he can access mine. How do I remove documents from Project Gallery?

We seldom talk to each other about personal matters, so heaven knows what he knows about me. Hopefully he is just not interested.

It seems more than possible he assumes his control over you is complete. best to keep things that way, eh? So here is my advice:

Don't change your email accounts. If he is checking them, he'll see any of your changes. Set up a new one. As NicknameTaken said, you can get a new one from Yahoo. When you sign up, don't give a 'secondary' or existing email address (if you do, Yahoo will send details of the new account to your old one). Follow the steps and set a really strange password, preferably just 14 random characters.

Go to My Mumsnet and change your email address to the new one.

When you set up a new bank account, give your private (new) email address. You can also ask to have your statements online only (no paper) or sent to a Post Office mailbox (£70 a year).

As you have shared folders, it is certainly possible for him to see any documents you save. You could save any sensitive documents to a USB memory stick, remove the stick and delete the documents from your computer's memory. Assuming he's not logged in when you do this (and there isn't a keylogger on your machine), that would be safe.

Aggy, your other thread made me think you were using a Mac. Are you now on a Windows PC?

If you choose a random password, don't write it down anywhere! One way to pick a hard-to-guess but easy-to-remember password is to think of a random line of poetry (or nursery rhyme!) you know and use the first letters, eg. the first line of Twinkle, twinkle little star gives you ttlshiwwya. Better yet, don't use the first line.

Hi again. Many thanks for the information. I am using a mac but it has got Windows on it, if that makes sense. I will set up a yahoo account. I didn't realise I could re-direct the emails from Mumsnet so I thought I had to stay with the illicit hotmail account.

junglist1 in my experience you can make yourself go crosseyed reading through the amount of info on the web about NPD trying to diagnose whether your ex was or not. There are some traits that I felt described my ex absolutely. Other things I felt did not apply at all so I'd begin to question my suspisions. Having spoken to lots of people now about this disorder, including a psychiatrist, I realise that, firstly, we ALL have narsisstic traits. What sets a person with a 'disorder' apart from the ordiniary person with traits, is their lack of empathy for others. You can also look at their early childhood and adolescence to see if it fits with what is known about the possible causes of NPD. Also, look back to the very start of your relationship with your ex. Did he 'fall madly in love' with you very quickly? Did he tell you you were his 'soul mate'? Did you believe you had found your perfect match in him ie, he was so very similar in his outlook on life to you?
Some of the criteria laid down to define NPD is, I believe, very vague. For example, it states that a person with this disorder will be 'grandiose'. I rejected this as not being relevent to my ex at first as he is not extrovert and neither does he tell lies or live in a fantasy world. However, when I spoke about this to a psychiatrist she pointed out that grandiose can be subtle and not always obvious. For example, my ex believes he is operating on a higher emotional plane to most people. That he cannot mix with the 'ordinary' Joe in the street because he is operating way above their level. He is dismissive of most people, including his family and college lecturers, because of this. He writes (crappy) poetry along the lines of 'Woe is me, nobody can understand me or feel my pain, I am alone in my superior bubble and I am destined for great things in life but haven't been given a fair chance yet'. He dreses himself in labels and is aloof and unaproachable. It's all very subtle.

Anyway, I am not an expert. I did think for years and years though, albeit quietly and at the back of my mind, that maybe, just maybe it wasn't me that had the problem. When I first learned what NPD was it was a lightbulb moment for me. It just described my h in a way that made sense and explained an awful lot of things about my years of living with him.
Hope all of that made sense to you?

BA - why do I argue back?? Because I can now I suppose. Because after years of taking all the shite he heaped on me I feel I can now stand up for myself against him. Because I want him to know he was wrong.
I think it will pass though. I have a need to get it out of my system at the moment and then I probably won't care anymore and will stop.

Autumnlight - I know that 'black and white' thing. Everything was seen in those terms by my ex. You fail, you get punished. Reasons for not doing something were always excuses to him. My ex lives by his 'lists'. He carries around with him pages of lists, always pulling out the lists and adding to them or crossing things out. He never deviates from his lists, they are like an instruction manuel on how to get through the day/week etc. If he looses one then chaos sets in and he cannot function. Of course I was 'chaos personified' because I didn't make lists or function at the efficientcy level of a robot.

Therealme,

2 grand on a tattoo - must cover his whole body!!

My H swept me off my feet for the first few months also. His true personality emerged as soon as I lived with him, but back then the signs were very subtle and I would not have picked up on them (without my now knowledge of NPD and when I met my H I had just got out of a previous abusive relationship).

When the idea of having children came up after we had been married a couple of months, and I expressed worries about going through pregnancy again (had 3 miscarriages before my oldest child and a very difficult pregnancy), he stated - how dare you deny me the right to children. He did not wish to discuss or understand my fears like a human being and now I cannot believe that I accepted that behaviour (but, as I said, I was not in a good place 'mentally' when I met him.

My H's behaviour has been totally consistent with the above example. There is no discussion or communication about things and obviously this example was like a red flag demonstrating absolutely no empathy.

I do believe that when I first knew him he mirrored my emotions to demonstrate he was a caring man.

Therealme - I am trying not to get into pointless arguments any more with my H. He does not really listen to what I say, and there is no way he takes it on board. He just does not get/understand/will entertain that his behaviour has been bad. It is like banging your head against a wall to try to get him to see he has done wrong and treated people badly.

In him mind, he is absolutely fine as a person and it is me who has and is the problem. He will never change and will not accept any blame for anything. In fact, alot of terrible things didn't apparently even happen. I imagined them all. (No, i just didn't ever phone the police).

I have never heard him say 'sorry' or yes, my behaviour could have been better!!!!!!

Autumn, it was very telling for me also during each of my 3 pregnancies. He simply took no interest! Did not attend the anti natal classes, never put his hands on my bump to feel baby, read nothing about pregnancy or caring for a baby. He made no allowances for any pregnancy hormones I went through and infact, kicked me out of the house when I was 3 months pregnant. Some of the worst rows occured during my pregnancies now I come to think of it.

When I had my first dc via elective c-section he initially refused to come into the theatre because he was squeamish. On the birth of no 3 he later told me that while I was in theatre having our dd, all he could think about was how much he hated and wanted to kill me at that point.

At the time I remember feeling let down that he was so indifferent to it all. It was lack of empathy though.

TRM, I appreciated what you wrote to Junglist. The thing is a bit of a minefield. Knowing that you & several others, here, have received professional advice on this is reassuring.

I'm probably not going to put this very well, but I want to try and explain how I feel the diagnosis isn't all that important. Sorry if I piss anyone off, I'm writing it too quickly off the top of my head.

Doing an amateur diagnosis can be dangerous and, strictly speaking, isn't altogether necessary. People like this can make you twist your own self out of shape; doubt yourself to the extent that you longer trust your own senses ... So, after years of trying to "understand" - and of failing to get him to understand you - it's a hell of a relief to find there IS something wrong with him (or her)!!!

I think the validation you get from reading others' similar experiences is everything. It helps, enormously, to find you're not alone, you're not "crazy", and this is such a real disorder that it follows patterns you can research! The actual, clinical diagnosis is only needed if you're going to have to prove it in court.

By and large, we're talking about relationships with people whose personality damages those they are close to. The discovery that you're in a relationship which damages you is a hard one, under any circumstances. Having a label to stick on it (and a syndrome of behaviours to read on) is very helpful in facing the situation and in regaining your emotional & psychological independence.

I can't say for certain that the many people who screwed up my own life have NPD. What matters is that I recognise what they did to me. I'm pretty sure my Mum and XH#2 have Asperger's - it looks, sounds & smells a lot like NPD and, since XH#2 was also deliberately dishonest and hurtful, it's reasonable enough for me to think as if he has NPD. I neither know nor care if that is clinically correct. XH#1 was more than averagely narcissistic, and more than averagely controlling & aggressive. There again, then, it's good enough for me to feel he probably has NPD. Same with a few other people.

I wrote this because I sometimes feel people can get too hung up on the 'daignosis'. If somebody's partner is behaving like this; making you feel like that - then they are in a BAD relationship. If the label NPD makes a useful tool for you to understand your situation, then good! Try not to get bogged down in the details - especially not with your partner! What counts is how they act, not how they're labelled.

I really hope someone else will put this more succinctly

< If somebody's partner is behaving like this; making you them feel like that >

Autumnlight, I could have written your last post. I have never once heard the word 'Sorry'. And tbh, if he tried saying it now, I would sit with baited breath waiting for the other shoe to fall.

TRM -- the complete detachment of exH from me during pregnancy was one of the things that hurt me the most. I remember sitting on the couch when pg with the youngest with all the other DCs sitting around me on so many evenings, talking to the baby, feeling her move around, poking the bump a bit, while exH sat apart from us all, focusing completely on whatever stupid game was on the tv. He never so much as put an arm around me while I was pregnant.

BA, I hope you can sort out the computer privacy -- it's a big step in a very positive direction to be able to reclaim a little corner of your own life. I don't think biding your time and 'keeping him sweet' is manipulation. You have a lot on your plate right now (hope your cancer will be defeated), and you are already feeling an attitude shift if you are conscious of distancing from him and looking out for your own personal advantage in your circumstances. Every journey starts with a single step.

BTW, I think becoming more computer savvy can be very empowering. It makes me grind my teeth to look back and realise that I unconsciously regarded the computer as exH's 'turf', not something I could own too.

Hi, again, BA

As you're running Windows you can install Spybot S&D which is free. Download it, open it an follow the instuctions to install. There are FAQs on the website. It is a superb spyware remover, that will remove any keyloggers from your machine. Make sure you enable the "Tea Timer" as it provides continuous protection. Also make sure you've enabled automatic updates.

I'm assuming you have an antivirus and firewall installed? If not, use the free antivirus from Microsoft and enable the built-in firewall.

Let me know how you get on!

Urgh. Just realised the above might be incorrect. Your computer might be running Windows on top of the Mac OS, in which case the above won't work. You could try installing Spybot anyway - it will tell you if your system's incompatible.
Sorry about that ...

This is what I don't understand.

My H was interested in themiscarriage, subsequent pregnancy etc. He was there at the birth and I have navere seen anyone more emotional than him holding dd in his arms, all brand new.

And he could apologise and mean it.

Yes he was possesive in the early days, but that settled down.

With my H, it's as though this "disorder" that seems to be so like npd came on almost overnight.

That's what I don't get!

Yes we have had ongoing problems....my family....a massive problem.

Work, the company that replaced me with a younger version, five years ago, have just done the same to him.

I know how much it hurts...but rather than let me be there for him, he blames it all on me and is even suggesting that it is my fault that they have dropped him.

His so called "best friend" going after the work behind his back, and encouraging his nephew to do so too. He is overwhelmingly into the fact that I alientaed this friend, and hat this friend is the best thing ever, although H has nowhere to sleep tonight. No room at that particular inn it would seem.

I just don't understand.

Can trauma, depression, whatever, bring on this type of behaviour?

My therapist called the situation with my family a "trauma" and said that most relationships don't survive such a thing.

My friends who know us both can't believe the change in him either. They all think he is having some kind of breakdown.

Please forgive the crap typing.

It's been a while since this link was posted on this thread, so here it is again. (And thank you to whoever it was who originally posted this)

Mallowpuff, sadly I don't think there are easy answers. It's a problem like the old 'who will put the bell on the cat' story. The only person who can change this is the person doing the abusing. And for him to change, he has to admit that his behaviour is not acceptable or excusable, that unhappiness of yours should be a concern for him, that unhappiness he caused should not be an issue in the relationship because it shouldn't happen, and that he needs to go and do everything in his power to change his behaviour. It would be very unusual for an N to admit that he has a problem. The only person you can help or 'fix' in any way is yourself.

Saddest: I was wondering if there were elements of the trouble you had with your family that gave your H the idea that you had a life outside of being a satellite of his? This can come as a shock to an N -- one of the things they try hard to establish is the perfect normality of their version of reality, and it can be hard for them when the real thing intrudes; some trouble involving your family takes your attention away from him.

That is possible mathanxiety, added to the fact that I have made tons of friends since dd started school. They are a brilliant bunch, Dads as well as mums.

He seemed fine with me going out with them at christmas.

He was thrilled when I got a job on a tv programme, and we all sat and watched together when it was on. He really was chuffed to bits for me. That was before my "family" got back in touch.

Could massive stress push someone into a dark place where maybe latent tendencies toward npd could emerge?

I have noticed that he has a lot of self help books......all of which are about power. eg, "Find your power", " who's pulling your strings" etc etc.