"If you hit me again you will regret it" - is this normal?

[DaySleeper]

Am a regular poster but have name changed as DH knows my usual nick name. Sorry this is long but background is required. DH and I have been married for nearly 5 years. We have DD, aged 7.5 months. We live in England but are not from here and family and old friends are a long way away. DH is a complex character; people who meet him socially would think he is the most chilled out guy ever. Actually, there is a dark and quite strange side to him that I don't understand and which to be honest scares me. He doesn't fly into tempers, quite the opposite. If we ever argue he will just withdraw into silence, like a stone. This used to really upset me and I'd be in floods of tears trying to get him to stop shutting me out. Now I just wait for it to pass. I guess a lot of men deal with conflict like that.

But the darkness, the weirdness, can be best illustrated by something that happened about 4 years ago. We were on a flight back from a holiday destination where we'd had a really lovely week. We'd had a fight on the last day because I had been careless in how I packed some of our diving equipment. On the plane he was still angry. 3 hours into the flight he burst into tears (first time before and since) and said he had to talk to me about something, he felt so bad about it. I prepared myself to hear him say he was having an affair (not that I suspected anything, it's just the obvious thing that sprang to mind). I was shocked by what he did say: that he thought I should have a nose job. He was crying his eyes out and saying "I'm sorry, I feel so bad to say this but I really think you should have a nose job". As context, I'm actually fairly attractive (although I definitely have what I like to think of as a Roman nose!) and the only people I told about this episode (my sis and my best friend) were pretty freaked out about it. About 3 years later DH self-diagnosed some psychological disorder where you become fixated on a physical feature. He saw a psychiatrist once but nothing seemed to come of it. He thinks he's fine, maintains he loves me, finds me attractive etc. The episode still resonates for me though. It sounds crazy but in my lower moments I looked on the internet to see what would be involved in rhinoplasty as I thought maybe it would help. Needless to say there is no way I'm getting this done though.

Now DH has never come even remotely close to hitting me but he is a big guy who lifts weights and works out on a punching bag most days and has an intimidating physical presence. He also snores. Last night, after a nice dinner and evening together, he fell asleep and started to snore. I shook his shoulder and asked him to roll over (v normal going to sleep routine for us). I then dozed and drifted for maybe an hour. I woke up when I felt DH had started tossing and turning quite violently in bed. I thought he must be sick and said "are you ok baby?". He said "I'm angry at you for hitting me in the head". I was gobsmacked, I hadn't - not that I was aware of, maybe brushed his head in my sleep, I don't know. But hitting?? No way. DH then said "If you hit me in the head again, I'm going to hit you." I'm now fully awake, shocked. I said "are you threatening me?". He said, "yes, if you hit me again you'll regret it." At that point I got out of bed and went to "sleep" on the couch. I couldn't sleep because I could hear DH was awake and I felt scared he was going to attack me. Maybe irrational. I was freaking out.

This morning I've gone to work without speaking to him and we are due to meet at something at 11.30. I emailed him, quite cool and formal saying "are you still coming, please let me know". He emailed back saying "only if you don't hit me again." I guess trying to make light of it.

Apart from this stuff DH is fine - we have long term conflict between him and my parents, but there is fault on both sides. He is a good father, we usually get along fine (we have generally had a good sex life but it has definitely been affected by the arrival of DD and me being back at work full time), he helps out around the house, is usually affectionate. I am the main breadwinner by quite a long way. I earn maybe 4 or 5 times what he does.

Please tell me what you make of my situation. Is my DH normal?

Good post seaside.

Hi DS, I've been following your thread and just wanted to wish you well in working out where you want and need to go from here.

Am full of admiration for your courage and clear thinking in the face of an awful-sounding situation. (For what it's worth I don't think your DH's reaction the other night was at all "normal" - let alone loving - either, regardless of whether you accidentally hit him or not.)

I may not come out of lurkdom again - you've had such support from far more qualified people - but I'll certainly be thinking of you and wishing you and your DD all the very best.

Hi again DS, I feel very glad that you have told your mother.I am still frightened for you though. I have some experience of Dv and alarm bells are ringing- I also did half wonder about Aspergers like the previous poster.Slightly worried me that having sounded very scared you switched to sounding a bit more "oh it's not so bad" somehow,so I wonder if you are now uncertain whether you want to leave or not and feel pushed towards leaving by most of us posters? All I can say is that there has been something in your messages that many of us have found sinister and scary. I feel real fear reading them,and that is a common thread through many responses.please keep that in mind.All victims of DV wish they had left earlier,it is only looking back that the signs are clear.Maybe your DH will never explode,but I think it is likely that he will.And I speak from the other side of the fence,having escaped.All the best to you.

hm...yes your dh s a bit of a control freak and slightly weiird...however that hiting episode seems to me like he was deep asleep and dreaming out loud...

oh, and whilst it wa weird that nose job incident and not exactly nice....it wasn't a major freak incident...so either there is more extreme stuff that makes you notice much nore or I don't know....

Thanks again every one. I have to say that without such a fantastic bunch of internet loons I don't know where I'd be at the moment. Feeling like I was in a very dark and lonely hole I guess. You have all been brilliant, sanity savers really.

Seaside- your post was anything but boring. I have to admit that I can't bring myself to tell DH that I hit him when I know that I didn't (save for the possibility of doing it in my sleep). I associate it too much with what I would have done in the past- I've apologised for things that I've done which I never thought were very bad but which DH created such a drama out of that he made me think they were heinous crimes and I had better just take the flak so we could move on. I understand that that's not what you're saying, but it just feels too much like that dynamic iyswim. I do think though that it's right to be clear about what aspects of the relationship are unacceptable. I wish I had started doing that from the outset.

I'm confused this morning. I had forgotten, but yesterday evening I had a local mum, her husband and their DD over for drinks. I had invited them weeks ago, not knowing that it would be in the middle of all of this mess. I met the other mum while I was on maternity leave, her DD is the same age as mine. Other than the surreality of DH and I making polite conversation in front of guests, I really enjoyed it. It was refreshing to see other people and I felt kind of pleased with myself for having gotten out and met some people [silly].

After these friends left, DH spontaneously cooked us dinner, set the table, put a candle on and initiated a discussion. We talked for ages but the upshot seemed to be that he feels that because I've now got DD and my job I no longer see him as much of a priority and I don't love him anymore. He said he loves me. He is hurt and offended that I think he has anger issues or could be violent. He wonders whether, if that's my level of understanding of him, we've reached the end of the road (his words). He talked about whether something had "broken" in me this week. I wonder if maybe he'd sensed that things have changed for me over the course of this week and that telling Mum about things had sort of pushed me to an even further level.

Seeing this more normal side of him has made things harder. He kissed me goodbye when I went to work this morning. I've gone from feeling very galvanized about making changes to now just feeling very sad. I know there our marriage has some major issues, and I feel that DH has issues of his own that he needs to work through with someone. However when DH was stonewalling me it felt much easier to be clear-eyed about these things; he seemed so horrible that I couldn't even vaguely see the person in there that I have loved. Now he's being loving and human again it feels much more complicated. I can see that objectively his behaviour might look manipulative- like he realised I was drifting away so he is hooking me back in by showing me a bit of love. I'm not sure he's in that much control of himself. I don't know. We've agreed to speak again tonight after work. I'm considering suggesting that we have a trial separation as I'm not sure I'm going to be able see straight on our situation while we are living together and locked in a push/pull sort of dynamic.

You're being amazingly clear and level-headed about this.

Only you know what to do from here, but do bear in mind that "broken" to one person is another person's awoken.

My dh used to stonewall me when he was depressed and/or angry with me. But he did not have a barging habit. This is what helped my marriage:

1. Write it all down in an email or letter and like a business mtg, find a date to discuss it and stick to it. Invite him to do the same.

1. Write down how you want him to respond to you.

1. Write down what you would like your marriage to be like and more importantly how to achieve it (ask him to put his suggestions in too).

1. Get massage on the agenda straightaway. Give him 20 mins and request 20 mins, you could try reflexology etc too.

1. Organise a couple of hours for a walk and talk (we used to get a baby sitter just for a couple of hours to give ourselves regular together time).

1. Do small things for him which you know he'll appreciate or if you don't know ask him, likewise ask him to do little things for you, could be to hold your hand, make you a cup of tea etc.

1. Watch some comedy to lighten the atmosphere or play a board game, do a puzzle together. Anything for you to reconnect.

1. Tell him you want to help him and that you can't cope with the situation as is. Say enough's enough. Make sure you give him suggestions how to make you happy as men cannot mind read especially if they are depressed. They tend to retreat whereas we want to confront it.

1. Stick to your plan of action and if nothing works, you might have to call it a day.

10. Update your mtgs regularly, revisit in 1 wk, 1 month etc, and give him instant positive feedback if he makes an effort to change the situation for the better.

Good luck!

Hi DS I just wanted to say I think you are a very smart Woman - a breadwinner, demanding job and a first time Mum; not easy. I am so sorry that you have this additional shit to deal with. You should be treated like a Queen not like he is behaving toward you believe me.

I think he sounds incredibly manipulative and I second what everyone has said about the barging and general threatening stance he has with you. It is so not healthy. I have to say from your last post I think he is messing with you. Being lovely and then vile - you live to follow his moods and go up and down with him this very draining emotionally - you should just be able to relax in your own home. I also have to add that your DD will be old enough to pick up on these vibes one day and may also feel your worry, you would not want her to grow up in fear of a volatile Father or feed on the "paranoia" going on in the home. You do not want her to think that you will take any teatment from a man just because he is your Husband.
I just had to add these thoughts. I think you deserve some peace and I truly hope you find that soon.

oh dear. I went through this cycle with my ex - i knew when things were bad we had no future and frequently made plans to leave - only to relent when he opened up and became loving [briefly]. I should have left earlier, I knew deep down it was a pointless cycle. But only you know if he is capable of real change, and that would have to involve counselling.

Daysleeper, do you think he could have read this thread?

Thanks Strawberry, Crush and Olympe. Blu - no I don't think he could have. He only knows my usual nickname and I make sure I close down the internet when I'm not on the computer.

Can I please ask you for your views on something? I've written down how I feel. I started off doing it because my head is spinning and I wanted to write it all down on paper so I could look at what came out. I thought it would be helpful to clarify my thoughts before I see the counsellor. But the way it took shape was as if it was addressed to DH. Now I'm thinking that maybe I should show it to him tonight and we can talk about it. It doesn't give any answers or suggestions, it just says how I feel and shows all the episodes that I suddenly now see as linked in a horrible pattern. If I write it down then I won't get confused when I'm talking to DH and I'll know I've expressed myself clearly. I suppose I'd like to hear his response to how I feel and see how things go from there. What do you think? Or might it backfire (as in, sound accusatory and therefore prevent fair discussion?) [warning it is long]

**
I love you.
But there is a dynamic to our marriage that I just can?t take any more.
For me, a line was crossed when we had the ?hitting? incident on Monday night. I didn?t punch you in the back of the head while you were sleeping. I don?t know what happened, but it wasn?t that.
You genuinely scared me, badly, by what you said and the way in which you said it. ?If you hit me again, you will regret it?. Your tone was icy, menacing, hateful.
I spent the rest of that night in real fear.
This is by no means the first time there has been an incident where your reaction to something that I?ve done (or that you think I?ve done, in this case) has been distressing and traumatic for me.
I will never forget our first trip to X when you manifested cold, silent anger because I had mistakenly not collected your rash shirt from the dive gear area.
I will never forget our second wedding anniversary, when I accidentally broke your fin when we were cleaning our gear.
I will never forget our first trip to Y where, again, I made some mistake with our packing.
I will never forget the flight home from Z where you told me that you hated my nose, although you said you hated yourself for feeling like that.
I will never forget the week of my sister?s wedding where I think the issue was my insensitivity to how stressful that time was for you. Did I do something more concrete? I don?t remember. I don?t remember a lot of that week because I was a nauseous nervous wreck because I?d done something to set you off. My sister took me out to lunch and I ended up bawling my eyes out in a restaurant because I was on edge again.
I will never forget the discussion in the kitchen last summer when you tried to convince me that I had broken my nose without realising it. How angry you became when I denied it. That terrible incident arose because I found an old ?to do? list when I was tidying up my office in preparation for my maternity leave. I brought the list home as a bit of a joke because it had some funny, anachronistic things on there from early in our relationship.
I will never forget your reaction, when DD was just a few weeks old, when I told you that Mum had offered to buy us a steriliser and I had accepted.
I will never forget scurrying after you, 5 weeks after my caesarean, when I accidentally dropped your case. You deliberately knocked Eli?s car seat out of my hands.
I will never forget the other weekend at home, where a careless choice of words led to what appeared to me to be hate filled statement about what is wrong with my personality.
There have been so many episodes along the same lines.
I know the feeling so well. I suddenly feel like, despite my best efforts to take care and avoid an accident, I have somehow strayed into the deep water again. It is always the same feeling of rising panic. I start to feel nauseous, anxious, shaky, my heart races, I know what is to come: hours, maybe days, of sullenness, iciness, contempt. To me it feels like you are unreachable, closed down, totally unavailable for any engagement whatsoever. You say that you are not punishing me, but it feels like you are.
In the past I have been reduced to virtually begging you to please forgive me for whatever the misdeed was. I am a nervous wreck until you do. I am anxious, looking for ways to appease you, guilt-stricken at having done something so bad that I have provoked this kind of reaction, powerless, traumatised. I don?t sleep.
The worst thing is, I never know what will set you off. It will generally be something that I am now sure most people would find pretty innocuous.
In the course of the days following the hitting incident, my fear crystallised into the realisation that I constantly tiptoe around you. I am trying to save myself from the mistake that will send you into this mode. I am constantly on edge in case I make the kind of mistake that will send us into that deep water. I am always nervous.
I don?t believe other people live like this.
You make me feel:
Unsure of myself.
Unconfident.
Wary.
Nervous.
Anxious.
Controlled.
Powerless.
Like your love for me is conditional. It will be withdrawn if I do something wrong.
I don?t feel:
Secure.
Loved.
Safe.
Confident.
Relaxed.
Supported.
Nurtured.
Cherished.
You have described my ?failure? to tell you about all of this as dishonest. I think you explained that you feel upset that I have stored all this up and am now ?using it against you?. It is not dishonesty that has kept me quiet, although I admit that until the events of Monday night I have not fitted the pieces together in my head and confronted the dynamic we live in.
It is simply that I find it very difficult to speak with you about difficult issues.
Once the triggering event has happened, I feel like it is literally impossible to speak with you. You are closed down until you decide you are ready to come out again. Once the triggering event and its aftermath have played themselves out, I?m so relieved that it is all over that all I want to do is to swim away from the dark pool as quickly as possible. I hope that maybe this time was the last time and I try to quickly forget how horrible it was. I certainly don?t risk the deep water again by raising potential problem areas at a time when I?m just enjoying the harmony of being with you.
This cycle has eaten away at me over time. I feel exhausted by it. I?m not happy any more.

just one quick point - you are opening up to him and being honest about how his stonewalling makes you feel (and, therefore, how successful a tactic it is) - but you haven't said that you are no longer able or willing to react to it in the way that you used to. That you won't any longer come creeping round him trying to get him to "come round" becasue you have reached the end of your tether and because it will make it impossible for your child to live in a happy and healthy atmosphrere once she is old enough to register it is going on (which isn't very old at all)

I'd say if you say 'I'll never forget...' then that means that, you can't move on and whatever happens next he is doomed.

So I'd avoid that. Also, without a concrete list of suggestions of how to make something better it will come across as 'no hope'. and negative.

Which is ok because you're hurting but as a man wants to be able to 'fix' things, you should give him a heads up of how you expect him to fix it (if it's fixable)

I'll never forget telling my dh that when I'm hurt I wanted him to make an 'oh dear' type of comment rather than to ignore me. He genuinely was amazed. He thought it would be patronising to do so and thought I was joking.

I know it's a small comment but it made a world of difference to me now that he shows concern in a way which wasn't natural to him (apart from to the dc!)

So tell him clearly what you expect too from now on otherwise he might get defensive if his male pride gets dented.

Also have a clear plan of action if things don't improve. You need to follow up any threat if you're going to make one (to leave or whatever) otherwise you will not be taken seriously.

At the end of the day, you have to have a life that nurtures and protects your dd so she can blossom and grow happily. And she won't get that if you're not happy.

I think it's great that you've written it down, but would advise against giving it to him. Honestly, in some ways it's still feeding into the same cycle - you're still the one giving emotionally, it's still about how dreadful all of this makes you feel, it's not about what you need, what you expect or what you want to see in your future.

It's unlikely that he's unaware of how dreadful his behaviour makes you feel. IME a pattern of sly digs and personal attacks interspersed with periods of prolonged withdrawal is all about punishing a partner for perceived infractions - it's all about making you feel awful.

I wrote a letter like that once and at the last moment decided not to give it to my then partner, but to put it in my diary. I'm glad I did because it was always there for me to go back to when I was feeling uncertain or confused in the time it took me to come to a decision and leave.

What you've written is very open and honest and emotionally giving, but I worry that there's a possibility that it could backfire, or even come to be used against you. It takes a lot of emotional energy to write something like that and there's always the possibility that, rather than investing the same energy and trying to meet you, your DH will respond with yet more silence and the crushed feeling will continue.

The best thing I ever did was learn to tear my focus away from him and retrain it on my own life. Instead of constantly worrying and fretting and trying to understand him, I finally realised I needed to concentrate on me. I needed to know what I wanted, how I felt and what I could do to live the way I wanted to.

I agree with CPD - it's great that you've written it all down, but, if you give it to him, it could be used as ammunition against you. Unfortunately it seems to me that he is nowhere near as emotionally responsible or mature as you are, and therefore is unlikely to take it in the spirit with which it was written.

His change of attitude does sound like manipulation to me. Did he say anything to suggest that he was sorry, or that he is genuinely willing to take responsibility for the way he hurt you?

Ah thank you so much, these are all good suggestions.

mrsboogie - yes, you are right about needing to say I'm not going along with it anymore. I will work on that aspect, as I think it is a similar reaction from other posters too.

strawberry - you gave me my first in a week with that comment about men wanting to fix things and your dh and the "oh dear" comments. You are right about the "won't forget", will take that out. Also agree with the suggestions and plan of action. I need to think about that.

CPD - I know what you mean about the risks of giving this to DH. You are right also about focusing on me, not on him. And I want to stop focusing on me in the negative sense of "I'm hurt" and start focusing on the postives of "this is what I want".

I need to spend time now on the suggestions/expectations stuff. I don't know whether I will give this to DH but it is helping me get my head in order now and, as CPD says, it is a way of re-orientating myself in the future when I become uncertain again.

Molesworth - no he hasn't said he was sorry or anything like that. I think he knows something is up though. He sent me an email this morning about looking at a house we'd been interested in buying a few weeks ago. I responded by saying let's talk about it tonight. He then sent me an email earlier this afternoon saying "are you alright?". I haven't received an email from him for a week. I am open-minded about how tonight's discussion will go.

When I read what you'd written DS I thought it was really good, as I'm a huge fan of writing to clarify my thoughts/feelings. But actually, reading What Carpe says, I think she has a very good point. I also recently wrote a letter to my parents (obviously different situation but again, control and abuse issues), and rather than take it in the way I had hoped (and maybe you hope?) they just used it as more fuel for their fire about what an ungrateful terrible person I am, and how they just didn't understand what they'd done to deserve it (despite me having just outlined it on 2 sides of A4!) and ultimately, rather than being a catalyst for positive change, it just broke things further. And then you have the added upset of having the energy you directed into writing it down and giving it to them thrown back at you, which is hurtful in itself.

People who control and manipulate don't care about what they are doing to others. It won't flip a switch in them and make them change their ways. It will outrage them and make them resent you more for challenging their perception of their own reality, IYSWIM.

It can be quite damaging to always put your hope in someone changing or a situation coming right in the end. Sometimes it just doesn't. Sometimes people just don't have the love and respect for you that you deserve and you need to act to preserve and protect yourself.

It is very hard though. I'm so glad your parents are so supportive.

Great post BB - the same thing happened to me with a close friend (who was driving me nuts at the time and causing problems with then husband) years ago. I wrote him a long, honest letter which was meticulously worded to avoid any hint of blame (i.e. phrases like "you make me feel ..."). That was the end of the friendship!

I think it is a great letter. But how do you think he'ds react to you giving it to him? Will it make him more resentful?

It brought back lots of memories though about my previous relationship. However, he was actively and physically abusive.

Your letter illustrated something else - you have been allowing this man to act in this way for so long, and have allowed yourself to act as the victim [as I did in my relationship] and he sees your relationship as totally normal. You are starting to realise it isn't, but it may be impossible to persuade him of the same. He will need an outside observer to confirm it, but even a revelation may be short lived, very hard to tell.

You were saying daysleeper that it would be easy to feel cynical about they way he is suddenly acting human and, yes, it probably is because he senses something has changed. It may not be a conscious attempt to manipulate you though.

I hope your talk goes well, if he is on the back foot a little it might be a good time to get your point of view across.

I think that dittany's second post has lots of good advice in

I agree - it's an excellent idea to let him do the talking.

Hi DS, a very good letter but I'm with the other posters who think that it's an excellent exercise to write all your thoughts/feelings down but for your own clarification not to send.

Great advice from Dittany re letting him do the talking - try as hard as you can to be unemotional. I am sure that he realises that things have changed within you and it will be interesting for you to see how that makes him respond to you.

Whatever happens tonight with dh are you keeping your solicitor/counsellor appts? I think it would be a very good idea to do so - the brilliant thing about good counselling is that it is like someone holding up a mirror to your life - you get to see what is going on far more objectively and can then make decisions about how you want to continue whilst being supported by RL person. A bit like mumsnet apart from the RL thing .

You do sound like a very kind, loving and strong person who deserves to live with love and tenderness, not in fear. I hope your talk tonight goes well.