"If you hit me again you will regret it" - is this normal?

[DaySleeper]

Am a regular poster but have name changed as DH knows my usual nick name. Sorry this is long but background is required. DH and I have been married for nearly 5 years. We have DD, aged 7.5 months. We live in England but are not from here and family and old friends are a long way away. DH is a complex character; people who meet him socially would think he is the most chilled out guy ever. Actually, there is a dark and quite strange side to him that I don't understand and which to be honest scares me. He doesn't fly into tempers, quite the opposite. If we ever argue he will just withdraw into silence, like a stone. This used to really upset me and I'd be in floods of tears trying to get him to stop shutting me out. Now I just wait for it to pass. I guess a lot of men deal with conflict like that.

But the darkness, the weirdness, can be best illustrated by something that happened about 4 years ago. We were on a flight back from a holiday destination where we'd had a really lovely week. We'd had a fight on the last day because I had been careless in how I packed some of our diving equipment. On the plane he was still angry. 3 hours into the flight he burst into tears (first time before and since) and said he had to talk to me about something, he felt so bad about it. I prepared myself to hear him say he was having an affair (not that I suspected anything, it's just the obvious thing that sprang to mind). I was shocked by what he did say: that he thought I should have a nose job. He was crying his eyes out and saying "I'm sorry, I feel so bad to say this but I really think you should have a nose job". As context, I'm actually fairly attractive (although I definitely have what I like to think of as a Roman nose!) and the only people I told about this episode (my sis and my best friend) were pretty freaked out about it. About 3 years later DH self-diagnosed some psychological disorder where you become fixated on a physical feature. He saw a psychiatrist once but nothing seemed to come of it. He thinks he's fine, maintains he loves me, finds me attractive etc. The episode still resonates for me though. It sounds crazy but in my lower moments I looked on the internet to see what would be involved in rhinoplasty as I thought maybe it would help. Needless to say there is no way I'm getting this done though.

Now DH has never come even remotely close to hitting me but he is a big guy who lifts weights and works out on a punching bag most days and has an intimidating physical presence. He also snores. Last night, after a nice dinner and evening together, he fell asleep and started to snore. I shook his shoulder and asked him to roll over (v normal going to sleep routine for us). I then dozed and drifted for maybe an hour. I woke up when I felt DH had started tossing and turning quite violently in bed. I thought he must be sick and said "are you ok baby?". He said "I'm angry at you for hitting me in the head". I was gobsmacked, I hadn't - not that I was aware of, maybe brushed his head in my sleep, I don't know. But hitting?? No way. DH then said "If you hit me in the head again, I'm going to hit you." I'm now fully awake, shocked. I said "are you threatening me?". He said, "yes, if you hit me again you'll regret it." At that point I got out of bed and went to "sleep" on the couch. I couldn't sleep because I could hear DH was awake and I felt scared he was going to attack me. Maybe irrational. I was freaking out.

This morning I've gone to work without speaking to him and we are due to meet at something at 11.30. I emailed him, quite cool and formal saying "are you still coming, please let me know". He emailed back saying "only if you don't hit me again." I guess trying to make light of it.

Apart from this stuff DH is fine - we have long term conflict between him and my parents, but there is fault on both sides. He is a good father, we usually get along fine (we have generally had a good sex life but it has definitely been affected by the arrival of DD and me being back at work full time), he helps out around the house, is usually affectionate. I am the main breadwinner by quite a long way. I earn maybe 4 or 5 times what he does.

Please tell me what you make of my situation. Is my DH normal?

But you don't have to endure it any longer.

Make a decision, tell him and stick to it.

It could be that he has to go and have a medical, you could choose to have a break from each other, any number of options are open to you. As well as staying with things as they are.

I think having a conversation with him to get to the bottom of what you both think happened in the night would be a good starting point.

But, just say you DID hit him in your sleep, it's pretty extreme for him to react as if you have deliberately attacked him, so not really 'normal', no.

Night Terrors in kids is very powerful, but a child who may react extremely lioudly and violently while asleep with night terrors never seems to have any awraeness of it in the morning. I think you should see your GP - on your own if he won't go on his on or with you. he may be depressed or suffering from some sort of illness.

I have nothing but admiration for your remarkably long posts.

Gosh Daysleeper. It's very tough to offer advice actually. I mean normally I would say you need to talk abotu this, but do you think he would be able to discuss it?
It does sound very worrying, espeically as you admit that you change your behaviour around him and that you are scared of him at times.
I wonder whetehr it would be worth you talking it through with someone in RL that woudl not get emotionally involved, maybe Womans Aid or someone similar? I am not saying this is DV but they are there for advice as well as helping the worst cases.

I think the main thign is, can you see yourself staying with him, like this, for the rest fo your life?

I don't like the terminology (after all, who knows what anyone else is really like inside?) but I will use your words: yes there does sounds like there is something fundamentally "wrong" with him - whether its a result of his upbringing or not who knows.

You have been with this guy for a number of years and have a child - was it only the hitting in the night thing that has prompted you to bring this out into the open? or have there been other more subtle changes? is he ever loving or affectionate towards you or your child?

I can't imagine living with someone that I felt frightened of like this or who did that shutting down thing. It is a very effective weapon to use though isn't it?

i am a deep sleeper but have very frightening nightmares all the time and talk/shout/fight in my sleep and have woken up crying or scared stiff and im not sure if things are true or not as the dreams are so real. my dad is exactly the same.
I have screamed in dps face and also kicked him in the shins and pushed him out of bed all while fast asleep and still felt angry in the morning.
dp isnt intimidated by me as he knows im never violent while awake and im much smaller than him but my dad is a large man and very intimidating when in this state.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to give advice and, hullygully, sorry about the long posts . It's a relief to share this with others so I guess it's an outpouring.

Blu said to get to the bottom of last night as a starting point. That must be right. If I'm not happy with how that goes then I'm going to pursue the idea of going to a doctor together. If he won't go then I'll look at seeking advice/counselling myself. I can't imagine staying in a situation like this for the rest of my life but it can be hard to get perspective on a dynamic that has become daily life

daysleeper I dont think I can offer you an advice as such. I just wanted to say I also have what I would term as an 'oddball' of a DH - however having read what you've written, I actually think I'm pretty lucky.
Scrap that - very lucky.

He's never threatened me at all, thank god. (although he's not nearly as big as your DH) His behaviour seems 'dilute' compared to your DH (for want of a better word) but is similar in origins I think - it comes across more as 'quirks' than anything else.

For instance - he does a similar thing - shuts down - when we have a disagreement. Before we married, this took the form of 'running away' i.e. complete avoidance. He'd turn off his mobile and hide out somewhere in order not to see me, until I hassled him back into a vague discussion. Nowadays he stays late at work - goes to the pub, returns after I'm in bed - that sort of thing.

On the 'nose' thing - again similar but far less, well, sinister is the word that comes to mind daysleeper - DH once did his disappearing act for no apparent reason. I'm embarrased to say now what I eventually discovered the reason to be - but I will (and you'll probably laugh). It was because I had some hairs on my nose. It disturbed him so much he couldnt bear to be near me!

He's well aware he has some behavioural issues - he definately has OCD which shows itself in various ways which I wont go into cos it would take pages, and sometimes I wonder if he's mildly autistic.
When he gets an idea in his head (sometimes he makes things up or daydreams them and thinks theyre real - for instance conversations - sometimes he checks with me in case a converstation didnt really happen - it often hasnt) he cant let it go. He dwells on things very very badly, and no amount of logical explanation can dislodge those thoughts.
He's very upset with me for instance, because we're going to Centerparcs for the weekend and I'm doing the spa with my friends for a few hours - the reason he's upset is because I'm pg and he thinks its dangerous. I've shown him the leaflet which states which things you can do that are safe, and which you need to avoid (i.e. sauna type rooms) but its no good - its in his head, and whilst I'm ignoring him on this one, and doing it anyway, he keeps bringing up the fiction that 'I agreed not to do it' which I didnt, ever.

I have a list of bizare things that get on my t*ts about him () but the main reason I'm waffling on about my own situation, is that you've made me realise that whilst DH is a little eccentric, and I think he is unreasonable in a lot of ways, he has never frightened me, and he has never threatened me, and I dont think he ever will.

You sound like you're in a horrible situation and I wouldnt ever want to be there. I'm worried, knowing what your DH is like with 'sticking to his guns' that nothing you say or do will make the slightest bit of difference because he is unable to comprehend why you think the hitting/not hitting incident is unacceptable. I also can't see him going to any kind of therapy - I know DH wouldnt. But I think that you need to address it because you're stuck otherwise - a letter is a good idea (although a response might not necessarily be forthcoming) It gives him a chance to read what you think without being in a confrontational situation - he can choose to not read it, but at least theres a chance he will.

Sorry my rantings are as long as yours now I really really hope you can move somewhere with this.
And in answer to your initial question - no - not normal - and also - not acceptable.

Daysleeper, the more you say about this situation, the less ok it sounds, to be honest.

You sound highly intelligent and articulate. You don't sound as if you are in a good partnership with your DH at the moment. I'm sure you can think of ways to approach him. Maybe it would be best to go with a suggestion that you feel strongly that there is something wrong with your relationship, rather than something wrong with him. Perhaps all of us would feel defensive, if that were how we were approached. (And it's true I think - there is something wrong with the relationship, even if that is because of him.)

Good luck with this, it sounds hard. It doesn't sound at all as if it is all in your head, or as if your DH is "normal" (though, what's normal, as they say).

I feel for you.

Thanks Grammaticus. I agree with you about identifying the relationship as the issue rather than him as the issue. There has been no progress because when I came home last night from a work function he was already reading in bed. He had turned out his light by the time I'd gotten ready for bed. He has just emerged from bed and is doing some floor exercises about 15 feet away from me while totally ignoring me. It's hard to work out how to start a discussion when someone is completely stonewalling you. I know that if I tried to speak to him now he would block me out. Soon he will go to the gym, then our nanny will arrive, and then I will have to leave for work before he gets back to the gym. I might send him an email today just saying that I want to talk to him about what happened on Monday night.

What worries me is the fact that you are afraid of him and deliberately avoid tackling things because of this fear.

The sleeping thing could be explained, I suppose, and the nose job written off as sheer bad manners, but from your posts there is something else underlying this.

Have a look at this and see if anything rings any bells for you.

The stonewalling and the rest sounds as though it is designed to keep you on the back foot the whole time. And by the sounds of it you are!

I also agree could be steroids.

Has he always been like this? What was he like when you first met? What is he like with your DC?

Sorry for you, it sounds unpleasant.

xx

Having read your posts the main thing that comes over is that he is massively angry - all the time, against the whole of the world. Really really angry - and deep down, you are thinking when is this volcano going to blow! His background sounds oppressive - and given they don't talk much, you might not know all of what has gone on.

It needs sorting - because you can't live in fear and your child can't live in fear also.

You seem to have a pretty good idea of yourself and what's right and wrong. That kind of 'moral compass' will steer you through this, one way or another.

As will a supportive family - good luck.

Thanks again for the posts. Gettingagrip - yes I suppose he has always been like this. I remember one night years ago when we had just started living together: I was out at a big dinner with work colleagues in a restaurant/bar that was below street level, no mobile phone reception. Was a pretty late night (2am) and when I came out I found a stream of messages on my phone with him asking where I was. The last one was "fuck you", literally "fuck you". I was quite shocked by that. It turns out he was worried. He had driven across town to where he thought I was, looking for me. He didn't talk to me for days after this episode, and I mean days. He ended up sleeping in the spare room, shut the door in my face. I'd never been treated like this before and was so upset and anxious I slept on the floor outside the door crying my eyes out until morning. I scurried along after him when he walked to work for several mornings, trying (unsuccessfully) to get him to engage with me. Totally pathetic on my part. But he over-reacts to things. He is fine with DD. I am by far the main care giver but he plays with her, interracts with her. Has said repeatedly that he doesn't want to bring her up the way he was brought up. Over the Xmas holidays he had a revelation that he has anger towards his parents because he thinks they brought him up to lack confidence. His mum is very timid and unsure of herself, no self-confidence. He feels angry with her because he had to teach himself to be self-confident.

As Maria says, he is angry. I suppose I do fear the volcano. He represses his anger a lot of the time, then it pops out provoked by quite minor things- like me being late home, or the weird "hitting" thing the other night. But he never loses control. I've never really seen him shout. If I shout or get worked up in an argument he will just walk away from me.

He sounds like an odd ball and things need sorting in the psychologcal area.
Keep us posted Daysleeper, and let us know what happens please >>good luck !

I guess you are getting towards a crunch point now, because your DD will soon be at an age where parenting her is no longer primarily about meeting her physical needs. You and your DH will then need to work as a team in bringing her up. Parenting brings a whole new challenge to a relationship and a creates a whole new dynamic (as I am sure you recognise.) This comes mostly after the baby stage is over, rather than immediately after the birth, IME. I don't mean to dismiss the changes that there are in the first few months, or the difficulties that lack of sleep can bring. But the pulling together as a couple really comes in as the children get older. And any differences in approach between you, or in your expectations of family life, will show as time goes on - before your DD can talk it's all hypothetical really.

He does sound very angry. He also sounds very aggressive to me. I am sure that he believes he restrains this - and you too have said that he does, but it sounds to me as though he has shown this side of himself clearly enough to have you tiptoe around him, so he hasn't really restrained himself enough, has he?

I would find it very hard to parent if I had to tiptoe around my DH. (Our boys are 8 and 10, btw.)

I'm guessing that you have a good professional job and your work persona is completely at odds with your home one with your DH. Do you think your friends and colleagues at work would be shocked by how you are with him?

I think a good counsellor could really help you. Maybe it would help you to go a couple of times on your own first, to clarify your thoughts.

And ask yourself honestly - do you love him? How do you feel about him?

x

Hi daysleeper. I agree this isn't normal. The word sinister was used and that fits well, IMO. Crying about the size of your nose is also abnormal. He sounds close to a breakdown, and may need psychiatric help. The aggression you describe could be because he's becoming delusional, or is a really nasty piece of work. Simmering rage is terrifying, far more scary than the shouty rage I have to put up with in my soon to be ended relationship. Good luck, and keep us informed.

Grammaticus - you are right, my colleagues (and tbh anyone who knows me) would be shocked about the tip toeing. I'm not a tip toey kind of person in any other way. Your question about whether I love him really shocked me. I don't know the answer to that. I think it will depend in part on how he deals with what has most recently happened. I emailed him about 3 hours ago suggesting that we talk this evening about what happened on Mon night and asking whether he will be at home tonight. He hasn't responded. It's obviously a deliberate non-response because I also asked him in the email whether I should go home at lunchtime (to cover our nanny's half day off today) or whether he will do it. We had been tossing this up between us on Monday night before we went to bed. So I'm going home now as I don't know what he is planning to do and I can't leave our nanny in the lurch. Thanks also to maltesers and junglist1

I'm sorry that my question upset you. (I deliberately typed "ask yourself" so that you didn't feel you needed to answer on here if you didn't want to.) It's a big one, isn't it. You'll know the answer as you work through all this, I'm sure.

Good luck with it all.

Does it puzzle you how this situation came about? This dynamic must have existed in some form from the very start of your relationship, whereby he exerts control by stonewalling and you respond by trying to get him to come round. That's the pattern he has dictated and you have accepted until now.

This is not a criticism but it has worked like a dream for him isn't it? There are many things I would, and have, put up with in relationships but it would kill me to have to do the running if someone refused to talk to me for days. I just wouldn't be able to do it.

Are you prepared to stop doing it? Because that's what it might come down to if you want to take back control.

The person is right who said that you can't go on like this and raise a child. How is it going to work if daddy doesn't speak to mummy for days for some silly reason? Are you prepared to be one of those families where the parents don't speak for years and only communicate through the children? What if he treats your child in the same way once they are old enough to respond in his desired manner?

The guy is angry, he doesn't need to lose control becasue he can achieve his objectives, whether it is controlling you or barging someone out of his way in the street, without losing his temper because he has cultivated such an intimidating presence he has no need to. That is more scary than a shouty person.

He really sounds like he needs a significant amount of psychological help.

I do want to stop being the person who has to coax him out of these ridiculous stonewalls and I totally agree about this being no way to raise a child.

But how do I start a dialogue without going into the submissive, pleading role? I don't mean sorting out the big issues, I just mean getting him to engage with me tonight about what happened on Monday night, the state of our relationship, and what we might need to look at doing (e.g. counselling, Relate etc).

I know exactly how tonight will go: he will come in tonight from work shortly before I put DD to bed, he will come in to see her but he won't look at me, he will get changed out of his work cloths, get on the computer etc etc etc and conceivably will get into bed, put his ear plugs in and eye mask on (he always wears these) and go to sleep- all without him ever looking at me or a single word being exchanged.

I would normally be saying things like "please can we talk" and almost begging him to engage with me. So the conversation already starts with me on the back foot. Does anyone have any practical advice about how to avoid that dynamic? I feel so pathetic for asking this....

Don't feel pathetic. You have become aware that you are in an untenable situation and are willing to do something about it. That's not pathetic.

I don't want you advise you to do something that will make things worse or bring about a reaction in him that will have a bad outcome - if he senses you are not any longer to be controlled would he get violent? but it is either continue the same pattern or break out of it isn't it? He holds the upper hand if you go along with the old pattern.

I can only say that if I were you I would do something he wasn't expecting and something which prevents him from reacting as he usually does. What about if he were to come home to find you not there and a letter waiting for him? You are not financially dependant on him so in theory you could simply move out temporarily I guess?.

He needs to know that you have finished playing along with his game and either there's a new game in town or, well...does the relationship have a future?

Maybe you should let him ignore you until you have had time to decide - just ignore him back until you know what you are going to do.

Your description of how he will behave is awful, intolerable - it's no way to live .

Okay what about a short text.

Okay then -you win. Fuck off.

That's you taking control and he wont expect that.

Hi Daysleeper I just read your thread and am struck by how "in control" your husband seems to need to be.
I would not be surprised if there was significant violence in his home as a child, probably directed at his mother or the children, which he was powerless to stop.
This "switching off" he does in order to control you and probably his response, is a common coping mechanism to abuse.
His aggression toward people in the street is telling, its a way of trying to assert his power.
You mention in your posts that when you do something "wrong" he gets upset.
Do you find yourself striving to be perfect in order to not upset him? Do you think his mother did this too?
My exDP has some of these traits and he certainly felt very abandoned as a child.
I do think it sounds like he has lots of issues with self esteem and power.
I hope you do have a chat with your GP and going to relate on your own first might be easier for you to decide how you want to proceed.
Hope you are OK.

Thanks everyone again for the support. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle tonight. I'm tempted by mrsboogie's mutual ignoring suggestion. But on the other hand I want to start talking about things. I want to ask him about how he sees what happened the other night and take it from there.

noshouting - I think maybe he does have issues with self esteem. Might sound weird, but he's had hair transplants at the front of his hair, done when he was only in his early 20s because he thought he was starting to get a receding hairline. It took him about 4 years to tell me this (he lied about the reason for a scar at the back of his head the first time I asked about it, after we'd been together 2 years) and he's very touchy about it. No one else knows. When he talked about my nose, he was virtually saying that he hated himself for the balding and he got it fixed. He was using that as a reason for me getting my nose "fixed" i.e. if there's something wrong with you, get it fixed. He tried to persuade me quite recently that my nose is now different from when he first met me and he thinks I must have inadvertently broken it at some point in the last few years. I was in total disbelief that he would think that somehow I hadn't noticed (a) that I'd broken my nose, and (b) that my nose suddenly looked different! He got angry at me and said I was being very defensive about it. I was even offering to go and have an x-ray to prove that I hadn't broken my nose. Oh God, it's all coming out now... Looking at all this objectively, it's all fairly odd isn't it.

Grammaticus - no need to apologise at all. It's just that, it is the big question isn't it....