Emotional Abuse - can we talk abou t it and what it entails?

[Janos]

If we already have a thread on this then I apologise for bringing it all up again. Perhaps someone can let me know and if so I'll let the thread die quietly!

I just thought it would be helpful to talk about it, and what constitutes it so people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship could recognise what is going on as it can be so insidious and nasty, and more difficult to identify.

This is not for one moment to denigrate or draw attention away from physical or sexual abuse btw.

Hi all, left DH and the kids on Monday and fled to a family friends house. This all happened becuase I rang WA and they advised leaving as the way he was talking to the kids was child abuse and that he might be potentially dangerous in the future. Anyway, when I spoke to him on Monday night he was really unpleasant, said I was overreacting etc, and that what I had done by leaving was 'so wrong' (!!!). Anyway, I met him on Tuesday and he was v contrite, admitted everything weas his fault, took complete responsibility for all of it, admitted all of it, and said that me taking the kids had shocked him into awareness of what he was doing. Has agreed to go to counselling etc (on his own) to address his deeper issues that are causing this. Trouble is, now that I am back, I find that my feelings towards him have changed irrevocably and I don't know whether I can be bothered to wait around and see if he has changed. My mum suggested staying fo a couple of months to give him the opportunity,(I know therapy will take a v long time to make a chnage, but just to see if he means it about actually doing it) and in the meantime she will clear out her house and make room for us if I decide to leave again (don't have anywhere permanant to go at the mo except to a refuge). I just feel sick. I suspect in my heart that he is going through the motions - telling me what I want to hear to get us back home. God this is difficult!! I was so shattered to day as on emotional overload, so he suggested I have a sleep when the kids slept. He woke me up after 3 hours, and then said it was his turn to have a sleep and went to bed. I guess promising to stop being abusive doesn't stop you being lazy and selfish...ho ho. Will keep you posted, but I can't see this lasting. However, I somehow unbelieveably feel guilty now, as though I should either have stayed away for good, becuase the fact that I have come back means I have to stay back - that I will be doing something wrong by leaving again - how messed up is that??

Sorry, I meant to sat that I took the kids with me - I would NEVER leave them with him!!!!!

I soooooo relate to the wanting to be friends thing MO. I see the funny, nice, generous man who I first met sometimes and I physically hurt inside at wanting to be with that man again. However as you say your "trangressions" make him unable to be that man to YOU. My problem is that I am a woman, obviously something I can never change and exh sees women as 2nd class citizens, not so bright, not so entitled, cold and arrogant and lacking in maternal instinct if they dare to pursue a life outside the relationship. This therefore makes a healthy relationship impossible between us, no matter how much of a laugh we have together and how generous he can sometimes be. I cannot live that way. I cannot live with the anger and insults because I am physically and mentally unable to view myself in the way that he does. It makes him angry that I won't submit to his view. Oh we could be so happy if I did and because I won't I am selfish and putting my needs before my children and so on.

Cloudbase I know exactly how you feel. The problem is that when women finally up and leave it is usually because they really have had enough and have emotionally moved on. Sadly, therefore no amount of effort on the part of ex's will make any difference. Clearly he has not changed at all because even on your first day back he couldn't allow you to sleep as long as you needed to after all the upheaval. I got the "its not fair, I have changed I DESERVE a second chance". Except it isn't your second chance is it mate, it probably is, in fact your 1000th chance because after all I was with you for 8 years and you were a verbally and sometimes physically agressive, controlling and drinking to excess tw*nt throughout that time. I cannot count how many times I warned him and I suspect you did the same.

I love being able to come on this thread and ramble on and on. It is very therapeutic.

Cloudbase sorry but it does sound like he is going through the motions Do you think it is more confusion than guilt you are feeling?
I know how difficult it is to make any sort of independent move, let alone leaving, they get us thinking that anything we do is not only wrong but that we instantly want to undo it to be back with the "safety" of the devil we know.
Yes it is messed up, but very normal and understandable given what we have been through.
Their behaviour splits us, is the way i see it. We know what we "should" do but the abuse makes us question ourselves

Springfleurs, yes this is therapeutic. Somewhere to validate our feelings, its so valuable.

Am envious of Digitalis lying on her own in her rented cottage and being free both physically and emotionally.

Am not at that stage yet nor might I ever be.

Dh agreed to go for counselling. A rabbi is helping us ( we are both Jewish). I saw the rabbi tonight and he is going to refer dh for hypnotherapy which he thinks may help him. The rabbi agrees with me that dh behaviour is abusive and unacceptable. Was quite amazed to hear an older person ( he must be 70 odd) speak with such clear and insightful clarity on the subject of emtional abuse . When i tentaviely brought it up he brought it out to disucss so to speak and ssaid scars are far worse and deeper and harder to heal . Said sending dh to hypno is olnly chance for him. But not sure he'll agree to go.

Hang on in there Cloudbase. According to Lundy Bancroft few women manage to leave an abusive relationship on the first attempt. For me it was third time lucky over a 2.5 year period.

It's not just the leaving him to deal with there's the guilt, the grieving for your lost dreams and trying to decide if being alone is better than with a partner who treats you like dirt not to mention concerns for your DC's. And for me shaking off my firm belief that I was insane casued by H's gaslighting. It takes a long time but for me there came a point where he was "trying to change" but I knew it wasn't going to happen. Just like your P, H cannot see why I left him. He says "you left me because you read a self=help book". This means he had found my Lundy Bancroft book in my very cunning hiding place as I hadn't dared show him, which indiates he was poking around
for a long time as well as monitoring my e-mail, mobile and landline phone calls.

MO, thank you, I will try Lundy with DS and I have discovered a book on Amazon called "Children of the Self Absorbed" which might be useful, as I believe
H fits the criteria for NPD very closely and the book is about Narcissistic Parents.

BTW H is 50% Drill Sargeant, 20% The Victim, 20% Mr Right and 10% Demand Man imo.

Keep venting everyone it helps to write it down and to read other's stories!

Hi Lisalisa

Good luck with the Rabbi he does sound to be very open minded and informed. Haven't heard of hypnotherapy being used for EA before but who knows, it might just work.

Don't forget to get some support for yourself too. It might help also for you to see a counsellor or talk to Women's Aid. As you can see a lot of us have found Lundy Bancroft's book to be helpful - there are bits you can access immediately on the net if you google search or the Amazon reviews give you a taster.

Fingers crossed for you.

nk1 - i was in same place as you - trying to please, everything i did was wrong.... he would not move out of joint owned place, had no job.

in the end, i had to up and move to rented property with the kids. a year on, he is still texting things like "when are you going to say sorry for what you have done" "what you are doing is inhumane" etcetc... i dont respond...like others have said he still doesnt seem to understand why i left.

because of his mental health issues and violence i was able to get court ordered supervised contact with the kids - it took a while but it will start on saturday...we will see how it goes.

financial issues not sorted out. he has said he "will never sign off on the joint owned property"...

but - moving out was only option. he had become so controlling and abusive in his behaviour and the sense of entitlement - that it was about his needs....once it gets to that point you need to save, plan and follow thru.

read lundy bancroft, see a counsellor, talk to womens aid..

of couse when you move on emotionally and feel liberated, tehre is no guarantee they will accept it - and evience is that on leaving is when you most at risk of violence - in fact the most violent episode happened after i had moved as i was trying to be accomodating and allowing him to see kids at my place. i also thought it better as i could supervise the contact...big mistake.

for those moving - DONT let the ex in your new plae, have him see dcs elsewhere...

at least now he is banned and dcs clearly happy that the boundary is very clear.

Digitalis and Cloudbase I think that's so brave of you both to go. I wish I could find your courage. As the others say Cloudbase it sounds like all he has done is just enough to sow the seeds of doubt in your mind before he starts to play his mind games again. My h is playing the 'happy families' mind game with me at the moment as if to convince me that his vitriolic rage at me on Saturday didn't exist at all.
I've been thinking that what he has done is just like physical abuse in the sense that he beat me up (mentally) on Saturday and now is being repentant (it'll never happen again because I'm a nice guy.) Mind you as Cloudbase says even if you are not being abusive it doesn't stop you being lazy and selfish with my h still lazing around in bed while I get up and get kids ready for school and myself off to work.

I wish my Lundy book would hurry up and come!

Thanks for the advice Cestlavielife. That's interesting what you say about the mental health issues. My big problem on that front is that I think h has a lot more going on than the depression he was diagnosed with but he won't deal with that and has even stopped taking his medication for depression. I've also come to realise that even if he is mentally ill unless he is prepared to try and help himself then things will not get better for me. Thanks again it's so reassuring to hear your story and that you made it!

nk1 - aboslutely.... he has used his "depression" as argument for saying "you should have stayed with me and cared for me" "how could you leave me when i was depressed" "you never took care of me"...

to also saying (in court!) he "didnt have a mental breakdown they just took him into the psychiatric ward to stay because she would not have me at home" ...

i had his GP calling me to tell me he "is seerely depressed you know" but also his GP telling me that the incidents i described of emotional abuse, violent behaviour, were "nothing to do with depression".

they will twist everything and get their GP to do so too....do not apply rational logic - is classic abuser behaviour to be "nice" - overly nice; - for a few days / weeks then explode again... as my counsellor kept saying to me - abusers don't beat their wives 24/7; she used the physical violence analogy to hit it home - the physical abuser does not phsyically abuse all day every day.... it is used as a threat, used just enought o keep the victim wary... it doesnt mean they are not abusers because they have good days in between...

and many people with personality disorder /mental health issues are "fine" for periods of time - it often is not a constant 24/7 thing. it is how they deal with themselves when they are "bad" that counts -whether they take responsibility for it or not.... and as an adult, they should, it can never be an excuse.

NK and Cest Lavie, my H also was diagnosed with clinical depression and medically retired from his well-paid job almost 8 years ago, leaving me as the main wage-earner.

He too hooked me into feel sorry for him by putting his behavour down to depression. He used to "get into character" acting the depressed man for appointments with his employer, psychiatrist, benefits agency etc. and openly laugh about how gullible his GP was.

Then the next day with me he would talk about how his severe depression made him behave and how I wasn't sympathetic and needed to do more for him. Despite the day before saying the depression was all an act.

Bizarre!

Eventually I realised after an incredibly long time that the depression, if it was real, was a smokescreen and that not all depressed people abuse, control and manipulate their families.

I have also researched at great length H's behaviour as for me understanding what is going on has helped me to regain some power.

Because he behaves in this way towards others and not just me, I believe that his problems are more than just depression and that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is the closest fit to the way he is (also his father and possibly mother too as this often runs in families).

That is why I do feel some pity for him as he undoubtedly had a terrible childhood but at the end of the day I need to make sure that DC's and I do not end up the victims.

It seems there are so many of these men....

Oh yes, the depression.
My ex gave up his job too and I ended up paying his rent at least twice and countless bills. He did not ask me to but was very good at manipulating me and I will never forget how he boasted of making his ex wife offer to pay for something- he knew just what buttons to push [angry ]

Also stopped his meds without telling me and when questioned said he didn't want to be on them for the rest of his life- a typically vague and lame excuse.
I am a depressive too but take responsibility for my down days, but while he could use his depression as a cover for anything from unemployment to debt to being a miserable twat, and benefit from my support and understanding, if I was having a bad time well that was just too bad.
According to him on one occasion I was not depressed "enough" because I could go into town and have a phone conversation with my friend.

Well i had my first counselling appt today and it was brilliant. Really liked the counsellor and have high hopes that she can work on my self esteem.

Well I did it. I had the conversation with H last night. Having planned just to tell him it was over and not try to justify myself, we ended up talking for couple of hours about everything. He was very reasonable throughout which actually made me think I don't belong on this thread at all, maybe I belong on a 'miserable wives who just want to get out thread'.

Anyway, he admitted yet again that he knows he treats me badly/takes me for granted/is a complete lazy and grumpy git. He says I have to give him a chance to change. I say that moving back in 6 months ago was meant to be his chance to change. He says actually its all my fault. He says he's equally useless in all bits of his life at the moment (I tried the old 'but you manage to be perfectly capable at work' line). I say I don't care, and besides its not just an 'at the moment' for how he is at home. He says he thinks maybe he's depressed. He asked if I was going to move out. I pointed out I can't because he can't afford the mortgage on his own (I however could afford it on my own, even if I increase it to buy him out - I didn't stress that point yet).

Conversation ended with me saying I now consider us separated, and we will remain so unless he works some kind of miracle to win me back.

I thought I'd feel a huge relief today, but just kind of feel numb.

"he says actually it's all my fault"
Ditzzy this says it all.
Of course he was reasonable, this is their way of making a concession, but is doing what they all do, getting you focussed on how he feels rather than how he thinks, which is that if he diverts you long enough with his excuses about feeble apologies, you will feel guilty/sorry for him enough to allow him to stay.
Mine was EXACTLY the same, saying things like "i'll come back if you stop taking me for granted"

They admit fault and promise to change but they never do because they see no reason to, because in their minds, they are right and we are wrong. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I want to slap him!

Thanks MO. I might copy that paragraph out so I can read it if I ever dither and consider taking him back again this time!

Don't worry. I did stress that he has used up all his chances and we are over.

You're welcome Ditzzy, glad it was of use.

Quick thread-hike (haven't posted here in a while). It struck me that we could use a quick reference to some of the resources we need when we're talking about the less physical forms of abuse, so I've set up a thread here, with links to some useful info. Please please add to this with anything you've found which will help people recognise that

a. They're not alone
b. There's a better way to live.

Hike over. Thank you.

Hi Dread, thank you, have seen you doing good work on stars' thread. Will add what I can, or if you look back through this thread I have posted links which some found useful.

Madame - go - post! I've run out of tabs to open [wink[

Ok Dread, have posted about useful book, will add links tomorrow.

Well, how's this for emotional abuse. Am meeting h next week to discuss divorce and house sale. Got text this morning, do you want sex before we talk next week?!?!?!?

Oh I'm sure he'd love that, momentary!! He's hoping you will fall back under his spell again through physical closeness. Do these men not realise how see through they are to us intelligent, strong minded females?

MLOR - How about this for a reply:
"Yes, but dont worry, he'll be gone by the time you get here"