Emotional Abuse - can we talk abou t it and what it entails?

[Janos]

If we already have a thread on this then I apologise for bringing it all up again. Perhaps someone can let me know and if so I'll let the thread die quietly!

I just thought it would be helpful to talk about it, and what constitutes it so people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship could recognise what is going on as it can be so insidious and nasty, and more difficult to identify.

This is not for one moment to denigrate or draw attention away from physical or sexual abuse btw.

Just wanted to post to say I am going through this too.

Ihave endured over 16years of this mostly without telling anyone. An incident happened a few weeks ago whch tipped me over the edge and I ended up confiding in a fwe close friends of mine. they were absoluytely horrified at the tip of the iceberg stuff i shared - kept the real nasties hidden.

One friend presuaded me to go to a very good counsellor in marriage matters ( he happens to be a very revered rabbi - we are jewish) . I agreed as a last shot. I spilt out some of what I am going through to this Rabbi and to my surprise he was completely empathetic and said he would try to work with us if dh would submit to his auspices and "take his beatings". My dh agreed even more suprisingly and this rabbi is now in the painful process of unravelling dh's thought processes and beliefs and starting litereally reprogramming him properly.

My dh had a bad childhood which I think resulted in him needing to control his environment in order to feel secure. This is our starting point to work on.

Just psoting to say really that emotional abuse is insiduous and very dangerous and without proper, intense counselling and a partner willing to explore the horrible dark truth about themselves is not something to stay with or try to change by yourseleves. I t would take a lifetime and make no difference. I myself am unsure where this journey will leave us but having 5 kids I couldn't leave any stone unturned before turning to the divorce courts.....

lisalisa welcome to the thread.
Well done for speaking out and I hope this is a turning point for you.

Have you ordered the Lundy Bancroft book? Many of us have it and we have all found it truly eye-opening, particularly in the way it deconstructs the excuses that abusers offer for their behaviour.

Acknowledging that behaviour is only the first step.
Please bear in mind that abuse is a CHOICE rooted in values and beliefs, not as a result of childhood trauma or past maltreatment. Many people suffer both but do not go on to abuse others.
If you look back through this thread you will see a link I posted about why conventional marriage counselling is unlikely to work when abuse is involved. I am not trying to be pessimistic here, but It will hopefully arm you with a useful perspective as you approach this difficult to time.

Welcome to everyone! Onlygotonelife, I also call my P the worst names, and put him down in the worst ways, usually during the nice periods, when I feel safe to do it. For a few days I'll pick on him constantly. It almost feels like I'm paying him back. Once I even stabbed him in the leg with a biro! This can't be healthy, can it. Funny I only start on him when the kids are in school, it's like there are elements of him in me now.

junglist
realised this is true of me - he was at his mum'd last night, disappeared out so when she went to wake him to bring dd home, no sign - he then turned up onmy doorstep,very contrite with stories of being forced to pay more and more money etc. He is feeling very guilty,will change etc etc. So although I haven't been horrible, I realise I do use this time to tell him how abusive he is, etc etc. Do sometimes say horrible things too.

Only let him in so he could talk.Then use the toilet. Then wanted to lie down for a moment, promised would go when I asked - lo and behold, has been sleeping since 9am. Hard to explain how I feel - sort of tense and claustrophobic - this kind of tight feeling in my chest that whatever I say,he will ignore it and do what suits him. He's not being horrible, but it's just the fact that what I want isn't important - he will sleep here because that's his choice. The fact that i want him to leave means nothing.

Did speak to WA last night, and they've advised me to speak to the local centre / outreach worker.

Lisalisa - from what I've read, can't use excuses for abusive behaviour - though I suppose they are reasons that contribute to the behaviour. But like Madameovary said,we all have choices in how we behave.

Ex is very self aware in many ways,he is able to acknowledge what's ok and not ok behaviour, and can feel very sorry about what he's done - yet he returns to that behaviour, and while he might be able to explain what might have contributed to why he is how he is, it doesn't excuse it. Sorry - very rambling. But at least your dh is willing to try to do something about the problem, it's a start,and even if it doesn't work, I can understand why you want to try.

I know it doesn't excuse it and I'm not prepared to put up with it any longer. Having said all that I come from the school of thought that everything hapens for a reason and not in a vacuum and that dh acts the way he does due to faulty wiring/background just as we all react in a certain way due to our upbringing/conditioning/choices etc.

I have agreed that he can stay in the house only if he goes for this counselling. It is by himself not with me althoujgh he is starting to insist that he wants it together. I have read this trhead and note with agreement that couples counselling just does not work as it is not couples issues at point here but , rather, one person's issues. that is certainly case iwth my dh. Sure he has issues with me - who doesn't have issues with their spouse/partner but I am insistent that he goes this alone and so do I . the Rabbi wants a list of his faults/issues and will then attack them. Rabbi agrees that dh' behaviour indicative of abuse and unacceptable and that he will have to change before any couples issues can be addressed.

So counseling really a subsitute for pysch treatment ( rabbi is qualified psych too) but sounds more palatable for dh to say counselling ( as if I am somehwoe invovled too!).

I must say over last week he has been tons better and I have started challenging and standing up to his habits of a lifetime and he is literally seeing things through new glasses.

It helps that our neighbours know as there are 5 close families in our road veyr close to me and dh and who did not know. Confided in 2 of wives and dh did the husbands and they are all backing me and monitoring. So, for e.g. on sat afternoon we are all ( apart from dh who was snoozing at home) in neighboru's garden sunbathing and relaxing. Cue dh waking up and coming to garden and leaning over fence and saying he wants cup of tea. I replied " hmm, lovely, I'd like one too please". His shock was palatable as what he'd meant was that I should come home and make him one!!! Bloody cheek! He sees nothing wrong wiht that of course but he will. I never got my tea but neither did he unless he made it himself. To add to his predicament said wives of nieghbours etc all shouted " Oh and we'd love a cup too - put the kettle on dh!!!".

Good one lisalisa!!

Evening ladies. Lisalisa I really hope your Rabbi can help. He sounds great and at least you have someone believing in you which is something a lot of us seem to struggle with here.
Onelife thanks for the idea of saving money - we don't have a lot spare due to h not working but I think that I will start to put a regular amount away even if it is not much as psychologically I think it will help me feel positive.
Have spoken to a good friend today who I haven't seen for 3 weeks she is horrified by his behaviour. H is so Jekyll and Hyde. After huge row on Saturday where he told me I was rude and ignorant and threated to 'get nasty' if I carried on he is now acting like nothing happened. He said very pleasantly 'have a nice day' as I'm off to work and then told children about huge plans he has for the garden (despite telling me on Saturday he is selling the house). It is making my brain spin. I have ordered the Lundy book and am wondering if there are any ideas in it for how to respond to abusive men. I try to keep as neutral as possible even when I'm really mad so as not to inflame things. It leaves me feeling like I haven't expressed myself but at least it doesn't provoke his anger. What do other people do?

Ooops sorry Madameovary it was you that suggested saving the money!

Hi NK1 when the kids are around I try to keep things calm, when he starts on me alone I'm as nasty as possible, and really belittle him. But this is because I know how far he will go, the most I'll get is a slap or shove ( I know how that sounds, realise this isn't on, but I've seen my friends beaten with sticks, one had a punctured lung from a broken rib).
The problem is we are between a rock and a hard place, if we argue back we might be severely punished, if we don't our mental health suffers anyway. Maybe just slag them off on here eh

Ex slept all day,told me I was manipulative for sitting on his bed at 4pm to use phone to call mortgage companies about not being able to pay at mo, cos i sat in the middle of bed (only other option is the floor to reach landline) with baby on bed with me - as i was doing it on purpose to prevent himlying down and also apparently i drew back curtains when using phone/ computer just to make it difficult for him tosleep

Does anyone else find that everything they do is wrong?

Another thing I've noticed about myself is that I seem to need his permission to do things - I feel the need to tell him how I want to get help to escape him or whatever,as if i need him to ok it. It's like I've become too used to not really having a say in things.

On other hand as he's feeling guilty,he's being pleasant and talking about ways to salvage financial situation - I want to contact local women's aid, but now i think, yes he's been abusive in various way,but is he now?Or is he just desperate addict and I'm too feeble to say no? I feel a bit mad phoning to say I'm being bullied to give away all my money.

Anyway, better go to bed, no wonder always tired, with baby waking and late night MNing

NK1 - definitely good if you can stash some cash away, might help if you do want to rent somewhere before house is sold. And I'm sure you're right that even psychologically it will make you feel better because you're taking some kind of step towards a better future.

Onelife - I am always being told that what I do is wrong - everything from using the wrong compost to buying the wrong cider. I am told by h that it is because I don't care about him or his feelings so I just can't be bothered to do things right!! The list of stuff I've done wrong is endless. He had a go at me for not booking in the car for a service (even though he has nothing to do all day long). Then when I had booked it in he said that I never would have booked it in unless he'd kept asking me to. I asked him if he would rather the car broke down than for him to get off his arse and get it sorted especially as how he believes that as I am such an incompetent I may never have done it and he said yes he would rather it broke down because it would teach me a lesson. He is always keen for it to be 'his' car when he wants to use it but 'my' car when it needs cleaning/servicing/petrol.
The other night when I was so desperate I rang the Samaritans and the man said that in an abusive relationship you can NEVER be right in the eyes of the abuser because they need someone to blame so they have to make you wrong.
This was such an eye opener to me - that Samaritan was so fantastic. It explains so much that despite me keep on trying my best to please him and do things he has asked me to I will never succeed because in fact he doesn't want me to so he will always be looking for somewhere else I can fail. I know I'm not useless but it's hard to keep remembering it when you are told this all the time.

One life - I know exactly what you mean about 'needing permission to escape'. I feel exactly the same. I know all I have to do is tell him its over, but I know what I want to do is offer all the explanations so that he'll tell me its ok. I've forgotten how to have any independant opinions on anything (even to the extent of not knowing what current music I like!!)

I had the oddest conversation with a friend last night, she said that another mutual friend wanted to check I was ok. This mutual friend is my H's only serious ex (we went out for a couple of months, then they got together for a year, and I got back with him not long after) and she'd heard on the grapevine that I'd moved out (shows how slow our grapevine is - I moved back in again 6 months ago!) and wanted to check that I'd got away without any problems. Turns out he'd got a bit forceful with her when she'd first tried to leave...

Even though he's never raised a hand to me, I can't but think this makes it less of a surprise that he has EA'ed me. Come to think of it, there was one occaision right at the beginning when he was a little bit rough, and I stamped quickly on that. Maybe thats why he turned to the emotional angle instead? I'm now being a bit more cautious about my plans.

I can identify with those that have said they do it back. Mine has pushed me so far that i have beaten him senseless and as awful as it sounds i have also belittled him and purposeley frustrated him.

After years of taking his crap id had enough , and now i fume that i put up with it for so long.Its only now that i see that every discussion was a battle to be won at any cost , no matter how minor, there was only one point of veiw and that was his.
He never wanted a partner but someone to dominate and bully.

Mine is still abusive now , although he denys this, he hides behind the children safeley assured that no matter how much abuse he throws my way i will not see the children suffer.
So much so that he is actually suggesting we all go away together next month !

Did any of you feel or still feel that because it makes you happy to leave that you are being selfish? I feel like I have put up with so much and while his behaviours were still awful towards the end they were not as bad as they have been. So therefore I am putting my own selfish needs first. Things are not as bad as they used to be so I should be grateful and try to make it work now.

However rationally I do say to myself that even if not so bad now they are probably still more than most rational people would put up with.

I know that sounds confused. When I think of being truly alone with my children I feel excited and happy. Am I putting my own needs before my children because I am ending things with him to make myself happy? I feel like I am going mad sometimes turning it over and over in my mind.

Springfleurs my ex would constantly tell me everytime that I wanted out of the marriage, how selfish I was to put my needs first above the children and yes I did feel that this was what I was doing and a big reason for having him back too many times.

No matter how calm it seems now, believe me your children will already be affected, as I'm sure you know.

It's been 14 months for me now since leaving my ex and seeing the difference in my children has been amazing. The house is so quiet now, calm, no arguments, raised voices, walking on eggshells and for me that feeling of desperate depression is no longer there. Yes the ex is still abusive and to be honest I can't see that ever changing but I am slowly learning to not let it destroy me like it once did.

It is not selfish to want a better life for both you and your children, you all deserve so much more.

I saw my ex yesterday, he accused me of seeing someone else and shoved me whilst holding DD.
It is the first time he has laid a finger on me in over two years, and he thought he could get away with intimidating me because he was on his territory

I had hoped that because he had OW he would let me go and we could be friends but he is still trying to control me, telling me he wants me to "wait" for him.

He doesnt want me, just doesn't want me to be with anyone else. I cannot cope with being part of this f**cking triangle. It is as if I am still in the relationship with him and I am so ANGRY and MISERABLE.

But like Itsgottogetbetter I have to think of DD now - everytime he affects me in this way it affects my ability to parent her.

My thoughts are all over the place. I love, him, I dont love him, I am indifferent, I am angry, I am sad, I am calm, I am anxious...

It is terrible the damage that these abusers do. Only thinking about DD keeps me focussed. This is not one of my better days but tomorrow will be better.

I think I am going to have to arrange third-party contact so I dont have to see him.

Madameovary sorry you're having a bad day - your advice has been brilliant to me and has really helped me keep going over the last week. Stay strong and think about you.

Since being absolutely vile on Saturday h is acting as if life is normal and the future plans he is making about house/garden are killing me. Does he not remember he said he was going to call Estate Agents??? I don't want a future plan for the house and garden but don't have the courage to say that at the moment. I had made plans for us all to go away camping this weekend but am not going to go as I can't bear going with him and can't bear having the discussion about why I'd rather go alone with kids. Easier just to cancel the whole thing. He won't remember we were supposed to be going anyway.

Springfleurs know exactly what you mean about feeling selfish about wanting to leave. As he is being (sort of) OK for last day or so I'm sat there listening to the kids chatting to him and feeling really bad that I want to change their lives.

MO, sorry you are having a crap day. My ex told me if I ever moved away with our dc he would "put me six feet under" yesterday, so I know how you are feeling. I leapt up and grabbed my phone and told him I was calling the police whereupon he denied saying it and said "you have got psychological issues". I am actually beginning to laugh at how text book he is.

It is the ranting about how selfish I am that I find really difficult. I have emotionally moved on from him, I still feel sad sometimes for what was. Occasionally we have a laugh and I see flashes of the man I married, I feel really sad then and wonder if I am doing the right thing. Then he does something like above and I remember this "feeling of desperate depression" that I used to feel and know I am doing the right thing.

Do you think you still love him MO? I think that deep down I still love ex or the parts of him that he allowed me to love but my survival instinct has taken over I think. Mostly I feel numb and frozen inside. A sign of emotional abuse according to our friend Lundy.

Thank you NK1 and Springfleurs for your kind words. Everytime I have to see him it leaves me with an "emotional hangover" which lasts for a day or two and is always a struggle to cope with.
However I have noticed something encouraging. I am often awake in the small hours with very clear thoughts that are mine and he is not in my head at all. And this is when I feel calm and safe and massively relieved that I am safe in my own space.
Springfleurs yes I do love him and I am ok with that. we don't stop loving loving someone just because they treat us badly, and I have no doubt that my feelings are largely due to Traumatic Bonding, but we have a choice to walk away and say "I deserve better than this"

NK1 I realized some time ago that he would say things that didn't make sense or would just say for effect. In short he rarely says what he means. I have lately begun to wonder if he is not a sociopath of some sort.
I must stress that being away from him for long stretches makes it very easy to both see what he is doing (keeping me focussed on what he feels rather than thinks, as Lundy says) and to stay calm. I just kept repeating that what he said made no sense and that he needed his head looked at. In short I didn't engage but other stuff he said still got to me.

I think I was most upset because of the effects of Traumatic Bonding and because I am still grieving for the man I thought he was. He really did a number on me to get me hooked in the early days and I very much miss how loved and safe and loving I felt. But it wasn't real and when I look at the bigger picture I can see how much he manipulated me and used things I had told him about my background (ie issues with my father, lack of family) to his own ends and for his own selfish purposes.

But by far THE most difficult thing to deal with is the part me that still wishes he was mine and still abusing me. This is the part of me that is comfortable and familiar with emotional abuse and neglect and feels it is all I deserve. That is the part of me that feels I have "lost" him and feels desperately bereft. And it kind of took over yesterday and that's why I felt so bad.

That can only really happen after I see him though and I do move on and quickly feel relieved that I am not still in the relationship.

I wrote some notes to myself when I was feeling good and strong, to help me through tough times, I will post them here in case they can help any of you.

I want to end this post on a positive note though. I will never regret not being with him anymore. Truly I am better than I have ever been and getting stronger by the day. This is just a process I am going through, albeit a tough one, but I know that I am getting there, and that I am doing the right thing.

Just wanted to add that I start counselling this week and am really looking forward to it. I specifically want to address the damaged part of me that is attracted to EA men so I never have to go through this again.

My copy of Living with the Dominator arrived yesterday.

I have read it all. I read all the different types of men in it eg The Bully, The Liar, The Headworker etc and while I could see elements of xh in there there was not one that 100% described him until I got to The King of The Castle. I actually laughed until I cried when I read it. It is as though the person writing the book met exh and decided to write about him. There should be a photograph of him in there.

This is an amazing book, very funny in places and very down to earth. It feels like your best friend is talking to you. Lundy Bancroft is fab but also alongside it I think we all need to get this book. It is a very strong book and there is a big element of outrage in it that some men think they can behave like this. Also a chapter on early warning signs which is really good.

Good about your counselling MO. I found it incredibly helpful when I went about stuff with my parents, helped me think differently about my dealings with them. Not managed to get there for exh yet. Mainly due to childcare but I am going to ask my GP to refer me.

MO you are right when you say it's a process, of course part of you wants the familiarity of the relationship. But that part will weaken over time. I love it when women like us make the break, it's like you're doing it for all of us, in an us and them sort of way!
Springfleurs, that book sounds really interesting and I'll be ordering it asap (like the bit about the outrage!) The Lundy book also shocked me when I first read it, I couldn't believe a man had written it, that a man was ripping apart abusers excuses. It just goes to show there is hope for us, not all men are like that.

Good one Springfleurs, I am going to order that book now
junglist1 yes, I do want the familiarity of the relationship, more so because i have no family. I am going to meet him in a cafe so he can still see DD (who adores him) but he will have no opportunity to do what he did before.
Ex is a mix of 50% Mr Sensitive and 20% Demand Man and 20% Mr Right with 10% of The Victim.

I wish we could be friends, as I like him intellectually but he has such a mean streak that he will always seek to punish me for my percieved transgressions, so will never give me the respect I demand from friends. I am coming round to the fact that he is always going to feel he can walk all over me even though we are no longer together and i have to find a way to deal with him (as a toddler maybe?)

Hi Everyone

I am really identifying with your recent posts at the moment and will definitely also be getting "Living with the Dominator".

I left my emotionally abusive H 5 weeks ago. The funny thing is I have absolutely no regrets or any feelings for him whatsoever. I feel slightly sorry for him but don't even hate him. like Springfleurs says it's more of a numbness.

Even when I found out that within 3 weeks of me leaving and he's supposedly heartbroken, he is dating a woman through a dating agency. I felt not a thing apart from sympathy for the poor woman who paid money to join and ended up with a date with him!

I do think I am damaged though. I cannot imagine ever having another relationship with a man again and i've definitely developed a general distrust of men which isn't at all healthy.

The other thing is that H's words echo through my head all the time. When I was wondering about myself feeling nothing after the break up I remember him saying to me that I was a robot, ice maiden who felt no emotion, cold and unfeeling etc. etc. And yesterday I had a slight confrontation with a rude belligerent coach driver who had pulled out of a side road in a small lane and I made him reverse.

I could hear H saying you're inflexible and stubborn, you have the thick hide of a rhino. I doubt myself all the time and almost feel like I'm coming to a point where everything will explode.
But I did suffer almost 20 years of drip drip criticism so perhaps it's not surprising.

On the whole though I am just so happy to have my own space, not to have that gnawing feeling constantly in my stomach about what mood he'll be in, what have I done wrong today or what have the DC's done. I lie on my own bed in my own rented cottage and thank my lucky stars I found the strength to get out, even though I still have to deal with him over selling our house and contact with DD.

My other worry is my DS. He is 18 and still living mainly with H although he's told me he is unhappy and cannot stand being with him. I'm sure DS is in the grip of traumatic bonding and DS has filled the gap I left and is now getting the flak I used to. I don't know what to do for DS other than reassure him, talk and let him know he has a home with me too. H is making DS feel guilty about spending time with me.

I guess it takes years for the abusers influence to lessen.

Good luck to all and especially those who are trying to leave. Although it doesn't make everything perfect it's still very much worth the upheaval imho.

Digitalis its great to hear your story, but I can only imagine how worried you must be about your DS. Is there anyway you can talk to him and support him? Maybe show him the Lundy Bancroft book?

Re hearing your ex's voice in your head, I have been thinking about this and believe it is a form of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I get unpleasant flashbacks and feelings and am not sure if they are grief at the loss of my dream of a happy relationship, or PTSD.

One thing is for sure, we all have to be kind to ourselves. We deserve respect, love, kindness and consideration, not to mention happiness.