Emotional Abuse - can we talk abou t it and what it entails?

[Janos]

If we already have a thread on this then I apologise for bringing it all up again. Perhaps someone can let me know and if so I'll let the thread die quietly!

I just thought it would be helpful to talk about it, and what constitutes it so people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship could recognise what is going on as it can be so insidious and nasty, and more difficult to identify.

This is not for one moment to denigrate or draw attention away from physical or sexual abuse btw.

He also told me yesterday that I am the sole reason we broke up because I refused to accept the normal man/woman gender roles within our family, whereby the man makes all the decisions and the woman does what he tells her to do as he knows best. Apparently these roles were laid down by "history", it has always been this way and I have ruined our family because I cannot accept it.

This "man" who was repeatedly unfaithful to me, got me into a mountain of debt, was verbally and physically abusive to me, who abandoned me and the dc for days at a time and is a functioning alcoholic expects me to allow him to make decisions for me and tell me what to do. Breaking up is just one small step, there is still so much further to go.

Springfleurs shame you don't have a time machine so you can send him back to the 1950s where he belongs.
Making these vague threats is VERY common. Have you spoken to Womens Aid? Sorry if you have already mentioned that you have, I am using my phone to post at the moment.

"I was hoping I would be free of him by having thrown him out but I am not at all."

Throwing him out was the first step. You've been really brave to do so, don't get down on yourself about it. I second what MO says, call Women's Aid, they should be able to help you formulate the next step and point you in the direction of services that can support you and your family.

Speaking of family, are you close with any of your family? Now is the time to contact them and let them know you need support. A good friend will do just as well too. You need backup, and I bet you have some friends and family just waiting for you to ask.

Women's Aid will be able to inform you of your rights with regards to sorting out access. I'm no lawyer, but I've read threads on here where women have arranged it so that their abusive ex visits the kids at contact centres, that way they need not even see their partners. I think it's time you speak to solicitors and maybe even police so you can get the legal protection from this bully that you need.

I'm glad you see the gender roles lines for the bullshit they are. In my experience addicts and bullies will often search about for reasons why bad things that happen are everyone elses fault but their own.

The comparisons to adult toddlers always make me smile, because thats exactly what these men are.
Ive recently had contact with my toddler, and even though i kicked him out 18 months ago, i found myself missing him and wondering if id made the right decision.

This was short lived as after the second contact i had, he reminded me so easily why id kicked him out.
To cut a long story short, his family have also bullied me for years and ive been the family scapegoat, the cause of all the wrong in the world, no exageration. Me ex toddler never supported me and would insist they visit and try to convince me it was ME who was unreasonable when i objected to their abuse.

This was mentioned , my ex apologised with what sounded like sincere regret.I was very surprised. He then stressed that this ONLY went on for 10 years , and if i ask any of my freinds they,ll tell me what a fantastic husband he was, and by the way, i wont let anything go, im too sensitive and continued to point out that he sorted it out after 10 years.
The punchline,,,,,,,YOUVE PUNISHED ME FOR THE FACT I HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FAMILY.

Errm no, i just didnt want your poisenous mother shoving down my throat nor have to listen to her insults.
Clearly he could not fathom that as an adult i had the right to refuse and took this as some sort of defiance on my part, still does.

So no real aplogy, just the usual minimising, justifying and excuses.And a worrying sign that in his eyes his familys persistant abuse is completeley normal.

Before i have even finished speaking he is ready with an excuse, or telling me ive said something i havent said , doing anything he can to frustrate me or play it down.

Goes without saying that im not missing him now, and the recent contact has been positive for me.
What a loser.

Springfleurs, this sounds like another nasty tactic to make you feel crap, i wouldnt take it literally , its designed to hurt you.

Mine has done similar shit things, claiming he had a girlfreind when he hadnt, deliberateley trying to make me jealous and upset and often told me that none of his freinds or family liked me.
He now says he did all this for revenge as he wanted to hurt me and was angry at being kicked out.

Am not sure which is most hurtfull, the possibility of these things being true or the fact they make stuff up to deliberateley hurt.

These little turds are very good at dumping their negative feelings onto you, so effectiveley you end up feeling emotions that arent even yours, they belong to them,, if that makes sense.

Recently my turd has been bleating about how loneley he is, how poor he is and that he cant even afford to have the heating on in his crappy little house, and how hes going to buy himself a small pet for company. Wheres his tart now ? Hehe.

He actually thinks hes the victim here. Was temted to casually crank up the heating while casually saying " just want to make sure all 5 bedrooms are warm for the dcs later ".

Ah the men as victims again. My overgrown toddler is also like this, saying things like you never support me blah blah. I believe his pathetic nature comes purely from his family spoiling him and treating him like a child, so he's completely emotionally stunted. Do you know they even ring him when letters for him come to their house, and question him about the contents? i can't believe I ever got involved with such simpletons.
Because of my experiences my boys have it drummed into them from now that they are never to raise their hand to a girl ever. My boy came home telling me about a boy who kicked a girl in the playground (9 year olds) because she pushed him. I told him it wasn't acceptable and if he's hit by a girl tell the teacher or just leave it. I realise some men are battered, but the ones who have to run naked from their houses at 4 in the morning in terror are few and far between. I always hear "but it goes both ways". In my mind if I punched my bloke in the face he could soon beat me down, and a man can break bones much more easily than a woman can (and I'm an ex thai boxer).What do you ladies think? Is the both ways argument designed to minimise accountability for domestic abuse?

As Lundy Bancroft says in his book (not exact words), when you slap or hit a man and that man hits you back with all his might and hurts you, it is not about self defence it is about revenge. I am not trying to minimise the experiences of men who suffer domestic abuse but I when I read that I nearly cried with relief. For years ex told me that I had "started the violence" in our relationship and finally I was able to quote Lundy Bancroft to him and have an explanation for why his abuse towards me was wrong, even though I had slapped him once when drunk after he called me abusive names early on in the relationship.

A fine example of this was when we were on holiday in Spain and he had been pissed for almost the entire holiday. On the last but one day I asked him not to drink and to give us a nice day, sure enough by 4.00 pm he was off his face. I remember looking through into the bar/cafe we were sat outside (he was in paying the bill) and he was stood there necking another pint as fast as possible. I left and he followed me, became abusive and tried to take our one year old ds off me to go to dinner with him, because I wouldnt go, when I wouldnt let him take him he tried to grab my bag, in which was mine and ds's passports and all our money, I slapped him to get him off me and the bag and ds and to this day feel fully justified in doing so. His "self defence" was to punch me with all his strength in the side of the head (my ear was purple for 5 weeks) and then as I fell to the ground to punch me in the back of the head. I was holding onto the buggy and that fell over with me. All the time this was happening I was trying to lie on the buggy to stop him from getting ds to take him for "dinner". In the end a group of elderly spanish ladies ran over and screamed at him and pulled him off me. He ran off and the police were called. I did not press charges, how I wish I had, I think a night in a Spanish Jail with these two big, beefy, angry spanish policeman would have done him a world of good.

I have not spoken to womens aid. I was hoping to be able to do this on my own and amicably, tbh I am sure that there are many much worse off than me as well.

I am really glad he told me about the 50+. He did used to disappear ALOT and he is not bad looking and very funny, sure he didn't find it too difficult to find these willing partners. I feel like all the awful, underlying crap that was in our relationship has been cleared out now and I have cast iron, no going back, no more grey areas. This is NOT because he was drunk or because I nagged, or because he had a bad childhood and all the things that I made excuses for him with. This is terrible, unforgiveable behaviour, there is no excusing it. I think it can help me move on.

Springfleurs you sound like another strong person here but please dont think you haven't been abused "enough" to talk to Women's Aid. They would most definitely NOT see it that way. Your experience was something no-one should have to endure.

You know that it doesnt matter whether it was five or fifty women, it was the fact that he wanted to hurt you by telling you. And even if there was fifty, what kind of saddo keeps a score???

Every one of these abusers has a way of pushing our buttons. Whenever it looked like I was happy or beginning to accept his new relationship, he would claim to have dumped her and want me back. It was all crap and now I know he's just a drama queen along with everything else. He seems to be addicted to his misery and up till recently I felt sorry for him, now I have just had enough.

Mine slapped and pushed me in the past before he realised he had to be a bit more subtle with his control and switched to emotional abuse. I am not sure which did more damage really.

My point is that he was a lot less aggressive and brutal than some men, but I still benefitted hugely from the help and support that Women's Aid gave me. He was more prone to playing the victim, including threatening suicide. Its still abuse.

"I have not spoken to womens aid. I was hoping to be able to do this on my own and amicably, tbh I am sure that there are many much worse off than me as well."

Well, from the sounds of it, your ex is pretty committed to making things as unamicable as possible!

There is no need for you to do things on your own, it will only draw it out and make things difficult for you and your DC. You may feel like you are bothering people, or that you don't deserve help for whatever reason. Just bear in mind that most agencies and friends/family will let you know if they think you don't deserve or need help from them.

From what you have described on this thread, which I'm sure is only a small fraction of the total abuse you have suffered, I certainly don't think that Women's Aid will turn you away because your situation isn't "bad enough". I understand that might be difficult to hear, but there's no shame in being abused, only in abusing. Your ex should hang his nasty head in deep disgrace, but that sounds rather unlikely.

Getting advice and setting a few legal boundaries is a good way to ensure your and your childrens rights are not trampled on in the process of splitting up. It's a pragmatic way to protect your interests.

I understand that protecting yourself is an instinct your abuser will have discouraged in you over the years, and it may feel pushy or rude to insist upon your rights. It's not. In normal separations most couples will get advice from various agencies and arrange access and maintenence through a solicitor. Things get messy in break-ups, even with the best intentions in the best of situations. Splitting from an abuser is about as far from a normal amicable separation in good circumstances as you can get.

Like all toddlers, when you set clear boundaries, there will be the initial tantrums, and then things will get better because everyone knows where they stand. Right now, it seems to me that the only person who is in control is your ex. You wouldn't let a toddler tell you when their bedtime is, so why let your ex tell you when he can saunter in and out of your house to see your kids?

I'm finding it so hard - although he's not living here, he stayed while I was away to dosomediy (not that he did much) and he has been here the last couple of nights too.

He is still demanding I find themoney topay all his drug debts. The problem is that I didn'tleave when I should have done - now I give in to his argument that if I don't pay them, all his wageswill go to that cos his debts will go up every day he doesn't pay, so I will be worse off. Because he promises never to take any ever again.

He just goes on and on and on at me. And I give in. I'm juggling debt around, willend up repossessed and/or bankrupt at this rate, yet I'm still giving in, because I can't see any way out. I've applied for benefits, but that's taking ages because I look like I've got assets. Even if I qualify I won't be able to pay these huge huge debts that are all in my name. I don't know what to do,and I feel so desperate. I went away for a few days - they told me ilooked more exhausted going home than when i arrived - I was so upset to be going home because I knew what I'd be coming back to.

I am totally dependent on him, just as he likes it no doubt. In some ways he's dependent on me, to solve his problems. The trouble is, I help him, but he does nothing in return. I just want to run away so he can't bully me.

I've thought about WA,but I don't know how they can help me. And it'sprobably stupid, but I don't want to get him in trouble so don't know what would happen if I told them about him having drug problems. After all, he's still the dc's dad.

He does the thing about me shouting. If I say I am not shouting, he simply tells me I am unaware of what I am doing.

I can't walk away from any disagreement. He would always follow,knock the door open if he had to,prevent me from sleeping. Yet he is all to happy to refuse to continue discussions with me.

He puts my family down. When I said i was visiting them, he had a tantrum and started slagging them off saying he didn't want his kids around them! They are normal, decent people, with no more faults than any of us.

He's in control, I seem to have no say in my life. I hate it, and just want to run away. I so wish I had when I didn't have all this debt i cannot deal with. Now I just think I've failed myself and my kids by giving into him.

I'm so sorry that this is such a long me me mepost, I'm just feeling so trapped and despairing at the moment

Onlyone, I'm so sorry things feel so hard for you right now - my heart is with you. Can you talk to the Citizens Advice Bureau or Women's Aid, just to find out what your rights are and get some advice? It sounds like you need some support and advice about what your options are, legal and otherwise and it might help you feel a bit less lost in the middle of all this horrible stuff. The CAB will definitely be able to advise you about debt, WITHOUT making you feel stupid, silly, or unable to cope (you are none of those things). It may also help you feel a little more in control. The slagging off of you and your family is a very familiar tactic - they have to make everything your fault or your families fault as they are completely without insight into their own behaviour. It's the only way they can cope, by deflecting the blame to other people. He is, of course, talking rubbish!
Apols if this has been flagged up before, but I have been reading 'Living with the Dominator' by Pat Craven. It's like a shorter, English version of the Lundy book, available through Amazon. It's written by the woman who set up the freedom programme. www.freedomprogramme.co.uk . It lists all the different types of abuse/abuser and what their belief systems are about women, and counters it with a description of the normal/non-dysfunctional man's point of view. It also has some interesting stuff about how society covertly backs up a lot of these skewed views of women (the law, lads mags etc). It's really interesting but also helped me feel a LOT stronger. I also spoke to my family and friends about what was really going on in my marriage and they have been fantastic, so it's worth telling as many people that you trust as possible. They will want to support you. Love and strength to you all x

Onlygotonelife.

Talk to Women's Aid. They can and will help you.

This unspeakable man you describe, should not be in any position to hurt you. You sound extremely vulnerable and he is taking advantage of that. Please get help, you are a good person who deserves SO much better than this.

As for getting him into trouble, is he stopping to think for one minute what his actions are doing to you?

No.

CAT me if you weant, I'd be happy to call you and talk if you need a friendly ear.

Onlygotonelife, your name says it all! Speak to Womensaid,don't be worried about revealing anything, and please don't worry about getting him into trouble. You owe him NOTHING,you owe your kids and yourself everything. It may take time, try and build your confidence up slowly. When he's ranting, look at him, really look, and hold the anger in. Get advice from CAB as to your legal rights and money matters, as the above poster said.

thanks for all your support
i've been reading through info on WA website. Sometimes though the more I read the more confused I am.
I question my own behaviour,I've responded to him in ways i shouldn't. How blameless am i? can i be abusive? then i think, but whatever i say to him, even if i do shout etc, it doesn't seem to affect him - i could go tohim 10 times begging him to get up and help me look after kids in morning cos i'm so ehausted,but he just tucks himself up in duvet.once he said i was being quite scary, ragin at him, but he was lounging back on bed,hand behind head looking most relaed, whereas he leaves me shaking, crying, and doing what he tells me. he can be loving, complimntary, affectionate, whereas i am no longer these things after all he's done.
then i think, but he's demanded money off me every day for a week- almost £2k, from a woman with no income, in mortgage arrears etc, while when he cashed a £600 cheque last week,i didn't see a penny of it.
he threatens (ie if you don't help me, i won't give you any more money), cajoles,blackmails emotionally ("they'll kill me", or "they know what you look like so...") insults me - i'm stupid, an idiot for not giving in.
Ss were involved, because i called the police once - when baby was a weekold he demanded £120,i said no,he said he'd let the people in who he owed money to,to take what they liked. then he said he'd take things to sell- tried to take dd's cd player, i tried to stop him, he shoved me over etc etc....
anyway ss involved as happened in bedroom where kids were,and i told them it was one off, and said no drugs involved etc, because didn't want kids taken away... but worry that if seek help, the fact that i lied might be a big problem - even though i'm doing my best to escape this situation.

soi think, yes i am in an abusive relationship,but stillmanage to be confused and doubting at the same time.

plucked up will to call WA despite feeling like maybe i'm not being abused, then they're busy, so came to offload here.

i'm so sorry i'm not being of any help or support to the rest of you right now

sorry for typing, holding baby,only 1 hand to type

You will question you own behaviour onlygotonelife because that is all part of being with an emotionally abusive man. They wind you up and up and up and eventually you erupt as ANYONE would and they love it, it is like a release for them. Ex would physically sink back on the sofa with a huge grin on his face once he had got me to the point. I would actually bang my head against walls with frustration.

One thing I must say to you from reading your posts is that no-one can continue under the strain that this man is putting you through without becoming ill. For the sake of your children you have to get out of this.

I totally understand the SS aspect of things. I telephoned the police twice during my marriage because ex had attacked or threatened me, the second time they came they told me if I called them again they would have to notify SS because there were children involved. So what happened, I never called them again because I was too scared of this. It makes me furious how many women will not seek help because of the fear of SS involvement. How little faith we have in them but thats a whole other thread.

My situation was awful, I had police coming round checking that this was his bail address while x still lived with us, it was never his fault though - they fitted him up blah blah blah!. However I cannot imagine the relentless fear and pressure you are under with his threats re his drug debts. You must, must contact WA. I am going to tommorrow and have a proper talk with them. Even though he does not live with us anymore I cannot seem to be free of him and it sounds like you are in the same boat.

The ss came because theincident happened actually in the bedroom. They have closed their file because they were happy with my interaction with the kids, and saidlots ofpositive things, and because I said I'dput thekids first,and that this hadn't happened before. But of course we are all scared of the SS and what they might do, doesn't really invite seeking help, does it?

They definitely know how to push the buttons to get reaction. I long to be able to detach and ignore him, but he won't let that happen. He usually starts the demands in the evening once thekids are in bed,and so I cannot walk out. He has pursued me round the house. Won't let me go to bed, harrassing me. He used to be worse actually, because he needed money upfront so would be revved up with his intense desire to go and use,so relentless towards me.Nowadays,he gets in on credit and so harasses me to pay up the debts, but he's not quite so desperate.

But you're right, I can't take this relentless pressure. I so wish I could turn back time and make sensible decisions.

Good luck with talking to WA, hopefully they'll be able to help you truly break free. It's horrible that these men can leave but still affect us

Onelife - I feel exactly the same. I think that my terror that its actually me abusing him not the other way round (or at least as well as) is one of the main reasons why I'm still here. For quite a while now I've been really quite repulsed at the idea of him touching at all (not just itimately, but even for hugs etc). I see this as: he shows me no respect, why on earth would I want him to touch me. He sees this as: withholding affection - which is one of the big things everyone complains about with EA... the abuser witholds affection in order to exert control. Who can ever say which came first? But I can say that I'm not witholding to achieve an aim, I'm witholding because I can't stand not to.

So whats the answer?! Actually I do know the answer. It actually doesn't matter which came first, or even if this whole mess is my fault - this relationship is unhealthy either way, therefore I have to leave!

(I'd add at this point that there's no question that he used to abuse me, it just whether he has now stopped and I am now doing it to him instead - which I don't truly believe. Either that he has stopped or that I've started)

Now if I could actually do it I was all psyched up yet again this evening to talk to him, but again, I seem to have missed the chance. One of these days....

Ditzzy I had that too
He treated me so badly, so little respect, care or consideration, that I just couldnt bear him to touch me (for eg, he would lose it in the eve call me a cunt etc etc, then the next morning start groping me (no fore play)and then get angry when I didnt "participate" fully in sex)

I promise you all it gets better, my XH and I have been living apart 2 and half yrs, and I am almost at the stage when I can not engage with him at all other than to arrange children, the divorce is proceeding, financially it is still a mess (but that is largely down to the property market), I feel more and more in control every day, and his words and actions have less and less effect on me!
I have a wonderful gorgeous new DP who treats me with the utmost love care and respect
Keep going girls, a step at a time, it DOES get better

Hi this is my first ever post on Mumsnet and I am just so glad to have found this thread.
In the last month I have come to realise that I have been in an emotionally abusive relationship for almost 20 years. I can't go into the details it is just too long and painful. Things have been made worse by the fact that h has depression but is refusing to take meds and this is making everything far worse. I ended up calling Samaritans last night as I was so desperate for someone to talk to you and I can tell you they were fantasiic. I desperately want to leave but he has no income (he hasn't worked for 5 years) He has agreed that we should separate saying we should sell the house. I told him I couldn't live with him any longer whilst we waited for that to happen and he said 'tough shit I can't afford to go anywhere else'. I am the sole earner and have a good job but I still can't afford to carry on paying the mortgage and finding a new place to rent for me and the kids in the meantime so feel completely stuck. Has anyone got any experience of this and what did you do? I'm going to try and get legal help tomorrow but as with so many people on this thread I can't help feeling that I am partly to blame and can't get away from the fact that it is also half his house despite the awful bullying, criticising, anger, sexual pressure and infidelity that I've put up with for years. Sorry fot the long post (and weird nickname don't know how to change it yet )

Ditzzy - that's it exactly.
I know he started it. But my then my reaction to it, is that as bad?
When I read that you have to take responsibility for your actions, I feel like I am abusive, because the only correct response to his treatment of me, was to leave and not put up with it. But I've been guilty of some things listed under abusive behaviour, such as witholding affection - because he asks me to cuddle up with him after he's been incredibly nasty tome. I've called him names because he has advertised for girlfriends online, has seen a prostitute and can watch porn obsessively but not be interested in me (back in the days when I wanted to have sex with him) despite asking me to cuddle,and telling me how much he loves me.

Like you, in some ways I just know the relationship is damaging and needs to end, but when I contemplate asking WA for help,I feel guilty in case I am in the wrong as well as him. I know I don't behave how I would wish to, or how I did before meeting him.

Plus in between when he talks about never getting into debt / taking drugs again, and how we are a family, etc etc, I find it hard not just to hope for the best and that he can change and helpchange the financial situation (at least it never makes me think we could ever be together again)

However, the thing I did get from the WA website was that the abiuse is about exerting control and power. Well, I don't have any control over him -my behaviour towards him is because I'm hurt or frustrated or desperate,or angry that he seems to think he's so much more important than me. Why can he lie in bed til whatever time he wants when I have no such choice for example. Why are his debts and needs so important, and mine are nothing.

First of all, hi NK and welcome. I'm clueless on the legal aspects but hopefully someone will be along to advise soon..

I finally got my Lundy Bancroft book (Why does he do that?) and read it in about three hours. I kept saying "oh my God" out loud as so many things rang totally true. It turns out H is doling out a "water torturer" kind of EA, which means it is incredibly subtle, insiduous and can be horribly damaging. There are also elements of Demand Man and Mr Right going on there. Great.

The section on the entitlements E Abusers feel was uncannily accurate - power and control, getting their own way, how they belittle the burden of work around the home as being easy, but are never willing to share it themselves, priority given to their needs - how they put themselves and their personal goals before anything, public status of family man without the sacrifices etc etc.

Been feeling angry for past couple of weeks, but it's now giving way to an intense sadness as I realise there is probably no way back from this and my dreams of family life are being shattered.

NK1 - welcome to the thread, sorry that you're going through this. No answers about the financial problems as that is the major issue for me too. It is terrible to feel trapped.

Macdoodle- so glad to hear that things are getting better withtime,and great you now have a partner you deserve

Re sex - he could bully me into giving him money, call me names, then later expect me to have sex with him for hours despite me being exhausted with getting up to a baby in the night and early starts every day, having sex with me,but looking over my shoulder at porn all through it, then when I'd say after a couple of hours, at like 3am I'm tired,he would say no wonder he had to look at porn when I'm so unwilling

Thanks for your welcomes. I'm about to go on Amazon now and order the Lundy book. Will get it sent to work just in case...

Welcome NK1
re the financial issues. Could you start saving money every month as a leaving fund? It's a start and helps you stay focussed.